are Christians weak?

[John 1720]

Hi All, hope everyone is doing well and living gloriously in Christ!

Had an interesting conversation yesterday with a non-believer, who actually (in a way, maybe it was just my perception) looked down on me for following Jesus. She is a successful career woman who has achieved much and lives a good life, she gives to the needy, generally doesnt speak ill of others and lives by a lot of "Godly principles". (Do unto others as you want done to yourself, etc, etc).

She feels accomplished that she has achieved this all on her own and hinted at the subtle changes in me (as i continue my daily struggle with patience, being more graceful and controlling my spewing tongue, it must be paying off).

It's not that she said anything directly, but implication flowed from our conversation that she considers it "cheating" that i have help, ("i can do anything through God who gives me strength" came up). It made me feel like i am weaker than what she is, not being able to amount to much without God's Holy Intervention in my life.

I KNOW this is the devil working to sow doubt in my mind, and i am by no means ashamed of it that i need God. I dont think so anyway. It DID however raise a few questions internally which i wish it hadnt.

She is a good person, in my opinion and lives a "clean" life. Without God? I dont want to consider that she draws her strength from the devil, because she does not "bear bad fruits" if i can phrase it that way.

How come she is able to do this all on her own?

Good Morning Pixie,
I am the father of 4 daughters and 1 son, and soon to be a grandfather of 8. I hope I can provide you with some fatherly wisdom that God has taught me for my own family. We all have been made in the image of God and endowed with gifts but we have all gone through the fall and are separated from the source of everlasting life. Through Christ we are rejoined to Him in relationship. That relationship makes us stronger because love is stronger than anything and overcomes all things.
An analogy I like to use is think of a beautiful garden maintained and nourished by a a wonderful and caring gardener. There are clusters of roses, tulips, orchids, dahalias, sunflowers, lilies,marigold, lotus blossoms, gladiola, etc. Each are beautiful in their own right but together they are stunning, especially under the care of the gardener who nurtures their beauty and health. They thrive under his care. This represents us under God's care.
At night an enemy comes along to steal and sell them to the highest bidder. He plucks them roots and all from the rich soil and throws them in vases full of water. There they are displayed as fresh flowers for sale. If not replanted back in the garden they will wither and die but they will be stunning and beautiful still for a few days. This is our state without God. The gardeners son then came to replant them in his father's garden and saved them.
Analogies always fall a little short. The fall was we thought we could be god without being sourced in God. We have tremendous potential to grow and flourish in Him. We have been blessed to be a blessing to others as we grow in God through His abiding Spirit in us. The Father and Jesus have come to dwell in our hearts and He who began a good work in you shall see it through to your completion in Christ Jesus, to the glory of God our Father. He has overcome all things and through Him you shall as well. In Him we weather every storm. There is self-righteousness, just trying to be righteous in our own that is doomed to failure and there is Christ's righteousness - imputed to all who believe and live in Christ and for Christ. It is all relationship and your strength is sourced in God, Even if one is only beginning to blossom and encounters others further along that's okay because you are growing in Christ who seeks to perfect you. But no matter how we look from the outside if we have not God we are dying and certainly will dry up and wither. Lord of himself or herself is a complete tragedy, proven over and over again. Be encouraged that God is raising you up in the rich light and soil He has planted you in. Your attributes will grow in Him as you allow Him to mold you to the beautiful image of God shining out to the world as a reflection of His life, love and purpose as you perform His good will towards all.
May the Lord Bless, John 17:20

• 2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.
• Phl 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

 

[SeventyOne]

oh my gosh can't get away from this "pride" theme now - but i meant it in a good way! It's not wrong to feel that kind of pride i hope

Pride was the first thing I thought of when I read the OP. There's a reason why when God lists the seven things He hates in Proverbs 6, pride is mentioned in the very first item. Unfortunately, it will probably take a fall for that woman to see past her pride. However, such a thing would probably be the most beneficial thing for her, especially if the result is eternal life. If you pray for her, you may want to pray that all those things that keep her from turning to the Lord are taken away.

As to weakness of believers, in one sense we are, but in another sense, we are the strongest. We do rely on our Creator to help us through our days. We trust Him to set our path before us and to have our backs as we move forward. We rely on Him to provide for our daily needs through direct provision or through giving us the ability to work and obtain such things.

However, we are also strong. It takes a strong person to recognize that life is hard and to accept the help available. The inability to get over our own self and seek assistance when necessary is a weakness that some people call their strength. These people ar not strong, they're blind. Their inability to get over themselves makes them weak.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

I chuckle sometimes when people claim someone is good, and I want to respond like Christ did to the rich young ruler "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone..."-Luke 18:19. So, maybe by our standards she is good but remember we can never know what is in a person's heart.

I cannot for a minute assume anything about this person you speak of because I don't know her side of the story. But I will throw this Scripture out there because I think you might need it.

2 Corinthians 10:12

For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. NKJV

We won’t dare to place ourselves in the same league or to compare ourselves with some of those who are promoting themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves, and compare themselves with themselves, they have no understanding.-CEB​

I don't know what your friend is trying to become, but we Christians are trying to become like Christ. And because of that standard we cannot do it on our own nor by our own measures, we must have God help us in this endeavor. Those beatitudes in Matthew 5:2-12, that's the characteristics that we are striving for. The fruits of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23 are the qualities that we are hoping to reach and the two greatest commands in Matthew 22:36-39 is the love that we aspire to. So, you are correct, and your friend is correct, we Christians are weak when it comes to measuring up to the standards that God have set before us. Without God the Father, the Spirit and the Son, we are the most pitiable, but praise God that He is with us.

Look to God when you feel the need to compare yourself to others. Because He is the definition of love.

1 Corinthians 13
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift ofprophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.​

 

[timewerx]

How come she is able to do this all on her own?

She did not do it on her own.

If she did not have any debilitating disabilities or disease nor born in anything less than horrific circumstances, then luck played its part greatly....

Therefore, is she any more self-made than someone who acquired lots of money through the lottery because of huge luck??

 

[RaymondG]

There are spiritual laws all throughout the bible which, when applied, can lead to prosperity, health etc... And these laws are in affect whether we know of them or not. And, like the law of gravity, it applies to the just as well as the unjust... And like Gravity, it can be used in a good or bad way. Gravity can stop you from floating into outter darkness(good), or it can kill your body if you walk off a roof (bad). An example of a spiritual law would be "what a man thinketh....so is he." So the rich will stay rich because they believe they are and only think rich......same with the poor.

So.......your friend is, unconsciously following the laws of God and is prospering...just like the bible said she would. Her only issue would be taking credit away from God......If she falls, she will not know how to get back up, because she doesnt know the source of her success now.

For you, It would be wise, to always wish the best for your friend and never covet, or show envy toward anyone or there possessions for any reason....As these would result in the negative use of the laws of God and the effects will be negative.

Besides, Your father is rich and will give you whatever you ask for......if you ask for Bread, he wouldnt give you a stone..... so there is absolutely no reason to want what anyone else has. If you have Jesus, you already have Everything......and to those whose Have......much more will be given. Those with an ear....Hear.

 

[~Anastasia~]

By the way, if you ever want to be shown or reminded of how STRONG believers can be made, by being in Christ, you might want to read stories of martyrs.

 

[placebo99]

Christians should be aware that Satan is the major influence on the ideals, opinions, goals, hopes and views of all non-Christians.

This is a blatant contradiction in terms. You completely (dare I say deliberately) ignore the point of the question to make a generalized statement with a veneer of theological backing. Key word is "all". Non-believers can sincerely hold some (not all) ideals that are identical to the ones Christians. We can't attribute these beliefs to Satan's influence. If a North Korean held the ideals that you did, would you say those ideals actually came from their Dear Leader?

To apply it more generally; I suppose compassion, charity, humility, work ethic, strong marriages and perseverance are Satanic values if they come from a non-believer? If so, I'm sad you think so. Would it be better if all non-Christians were murderers and thieves and rapists? Why should they aspire to anything at all?

It was the wrong way to answer the person in the first place; the simple answer is that the woman she was dealing with was proud and condescending. These are both attributes that any decent human being would frown upon, Christian or not.

OP: Don't worry about this woman, what she thinks doesn't really matter; she is no more an authority on your way of life than anyone else. Chances are her self-esteem was pretty low to start with.

 

[GandalfTheWise]

In western society, we have a tendency to view life in terms of "success" and "failure". Do I have a good job or am I unemployed? Do I have good relationships? Am I a "good" person? Even as believers, we tend to judge ourselves as being "good" (or "fruitful" or "effective") Christians or not by our performance. Do I spent enough minutes per day praying? Do I read enough of the Bible every day? Do I do enough of ... whatever? Do I avoid doing ... whatever? Ultimately, there's one thing that matters, are we walking with God and growing in Him? Your walk, my walk, everyone else's walk will look different. Are we growing? Are we getting closer to God as time passes?

I've now been a believer for about 40 years. If I could go back in time and give myself one piece of advice at the beginning of my walk, it would be this. You are a unique creation of the Almighty meant to walk uniquely with Him. Don't let societal or church pressures force you into a different mold. Walk daily with Him in your uniqueness. Figure out how spiritual disciplines (prayer, Bible reading, etc.) best work for you. God does not have a to-do list for you that you either accomplish or fail at. You are a work of art that He is daily adding to. Your walk will go through stages as you grow. Your life is not about checking off tasks and meeting certain criteria. Your life is about reflecting the glory of God to the world in a unique way that He will only do through you.

 

[nomadictheist]

There are a lot of good answers here already, but I will add my own thoughts on the OP

First, not just Christians, but all humans are weak. From the moment we enter the world, we are possessed of a sinful nature that leads us in a direction opposite God's perfect will. Without 'help,' we cannot overcome that sinful nature. In fact, we are so desperately sinful that even with the help of the Holy Spirit we must continually struggle against sins of all kinds.

Second, our struggle is not against flesh and blood. We must realize that the spiritual realm and the warfare that occurs there is very real. From the time that Jesus fulfilled the law and created a new covenant with His people, the enemy and his armies have continually made war on those who follow the Messiah. That means once you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and identify yourself as a Christian, the enemy will do everything in his power to bring you down.

Third, living a 'good' life cannot be confused with righteousness. Helping the needy is important, yes. Not speaking ill of your brothers and sisters is also important. But what are the two most important things for us to do? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. Without loving God, you can't truly live a good life (by God's standards).

Finally, there is no reason to be jealous or feel envy for anyone who is not a believer. It is in recognizing that any works built by our own power are naught but chaff that will be consumed by the fire that we can truly experience the power of God. It is not me doing the works, but Christ working through me. Your friend and others like her who do not believe are under a strong delusion. It is better to have your eyes open to the truth and know your own weakness than to believe yourself to be strong when you have no strength at all.

Yet, if she recognizes that you have help, perhaps an appropriate response would be something like 'just imagine what you could accomplish if you had help...'

 

[lsume]

Hi All, hope everyone is doing well and living gloriously in Christ!

Had an interesting conversation yesterday with a non-believer, who actually (in a way, maybe it was just my perception) looked down on me for following Jesus. She is a successful career woman who has achieved much and lives a good life, she gives to the needy, generally doesnt speak ill of others and lives by a lot of "Godly principles". (Do unto others as you want done to yourself, etc, etc).

She feels accomplished that she has achieved this all on her own and hinted at the subtle changes in me (as i continue my daily struggle with patience, being more graceful and controlling my spewing tongue, it must be paying off).

It's not that she said anything directly, but implication flowed from our conversation that she considers it "cheating" that i have help, ("i can do anything through God who gives me strength" came up). It made me feel like i am weaker than what she is, not being able to amount to much without God's Holy Intervention in my life.

I KNOW this is the devil working to sow doubt in my mind, and i am by no means ashamed of it that i need God. I dont think so anyway. It DID however raise a few questions internally which i wish it hadnt.

She is a good person, in my opinion and lives a "clean" life. Without God? I dont want to consider that she draws her strength from the devil, because she does not "bear bad fruits" if i can phrase it that way.

How come she is able to do this all on her own?

Christ Himself said that He was lowly and meek. We as true Christians can't be too meek or too lowly. If our Lord and Savior was meek and lowly, how much more meek and lowly should we be? No one can escape the following Scripture;
Mark.16

1. [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The Word of God Speaks about those who obey the intent of The Law that have not heard of Christ. SEE Will God Condemn People Who Have Never Even Heard About Jesus?
However, John 1:9 tells us that everyone who comes into this world knows right from wrong
John.1 Verses 8 to 9

1. 
   [8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
   [9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

We are not the judge thank God.

 

[wandererUK]

Certainly, the modern church has a reputation for being weak, christians themselves doormats and lacking any moral conviction to confront wrongs. And, dare I say it, the organised church appears somewhat effeminate lacking any firm conviction on important issues. They are also so keen to 'turn the other cheek' and to 'love thine enemies' that we see the church constantly ceding ground on matters of faith. Or pretty much anything for that matter.

But, that said, there are many Christians who are successful. I also know a lot of successful non christians who are on anti-depressents or some other fix to get the 'support' they need.

 

[lsume]

1. A moment ago#30
   
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   Christ Himself said that He was lowly and meek. We as true Christians can't be too meek or too lowly. If our Lord and Savior was meek and lowly, how much more meek and lowly should we be? No one can escape the following Scripture;
   Mark.16
   1. [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
   The Word of God Speaks about those who obey the intent of The Law that have not heard of Christ. SEE Will God Condemn People Who Have Never Even Heard About Jesus?
   However, John 1:9 tells us that everyone who comes into this world knows right from wrong
   John.1 Verses 8 to 9
   1. 
      [8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
      [9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
   We are not the judge thank God.
   
   A moment ago
   EditReport
   + QuoteReply

 

[Vicomte13]

She is a good person, in my opinion and lives a "clean" life. Without God? I dont want to consider that she draws her strength from the devil, because she does not "bear bad fruits" if i can phrase it that way.

How come she is able to do this all on her own?

She isn't doing it on her own. She just thinks she is. If her fruit is good and she is doing good, it is the power of God flowing through her that is doing it. God is helping her. She thinks she's without God, and foolish Christians who think that God is only with those who admit it think so too, but obviously God is with her: you know it by her fruits.

Her life is nowhere near being over, and the final outcome is known to God but not to any of us. It's a cinch that Christians willing to tell her that her goodness flows from the Devil will do nothing helpful for anybody. And if her fruit actually is good, then the Christians who say such inanities are really only doing harm and helping the Devil out.

Some people think that to have God's grace that a person must visibly join a "team" before men, and meet human understanding. That is not true.

Your friend isn't living without God. She just says she is, and you're taking her word for it. But Jesus said to look at the fruit. If her fruit is good, then God is expressing himself through her, whether she, or you, or anybody else, knows it, or likes it, or not.

 

[JoeP222w]

She is a good person, in my opinion and lives a "clean" life. Without God?

Not according to the Bible.

Romans 3:10-12

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

i honestly pity your friend. she has taken the offer of satan and will perish for it(genesis 3:4-7, luke 4:5-8, 1 john 2:15-17).

i strongly second the recommendation of reading psalms 73. pray for your friend, she needs it badly.

 

[nomadictheist]

This is a blatant contradiction in terms. You completely (dare I say deliberately) ignore the point of the question to make a generalized statement with a veneer of theological backing. Key word is "all". Non-believers can sincerely hold some (not all) ideals that are identical to the ones Christians. We can't attribute these beliefs to Satan's influence. If a North Korean held the ideals that you did, would you say those ideals actually came from their Dear Leader?

To apply it more generally; I suppose compassion, charity, humility, work ethic, strong marriages and perseverance are Satanic values if they come from a non-believer? If so, I'm sad you think so. Would it be better if all non-Christians were murderers and thieves and rapists? Why should they aspire to anything at all?

It was the wrong way to answer the person in the first place; the simple answer is that the woman she was dealing with was proud and condescending. These are both attributes that any decent human being would frown upon, Christian or not.

OP: Don't worry about this woman, what she thinks doesn't really matter; she is no more an authority on your way of life than anyone else. Chances are her self-esteem was pretty low to start with.

Hello Placebo99,

I couldn't help noticing this just after I wrote my original response to the OP, and I think there's something here that needs to be addressed. Specifically, that any religion that is not of God is of the devil.

In the time of Christ, there was a group of people who were the most pious, most righteous people you would ever meet. They followed the law religiously. They knew what every jot and tittle meant. They gave generously to the poor and needy. But our Lord, talking to them, told them that they were of their 'father the devil.'

I suppose you would say that any non-believer, for instance, who holds the ideal 'do not murder' would hold the same ideal as the equivocal viewpoint in the Christian world. But the fact is 'do not murder' is not actually an ideal, but a rule that is an offshoot from an ideal. The ideal, to a Christian, is that all men are created by God, and He has given us commands to live by. One of those commands is 'do not murder.' Conversely, as an example, many non-Christians firmly hold the ideal that humanity is the ultimate good (commonly known as humanism). From that ideal comes the principle that doing anything to harm a human is evil. Thus, 'do not murder' is a principle drawn from the ideal of humanism.

Your argument is that the principles like 'do not murder, do not steal, etc.' can come from nowhere but God. This is true. However, the devil can convince, and has convinced, many that those principles can come from somewhere other than God. These other beliefs then form a set of ideals from which the principles are drawn.

Other examples of ideals present in humanism are social morality (the ideal that morality is based entirely in what society perceives to be right and wrong at the time), innate goodness (the ideal that humans are basically good at birth and learn any 'evil' behaviors from society), social justice (the ideal that what constitutes justice is based on how society decides it is appropriate to respond to any breach of social morality), and ultimately anti-theism (couldn't find a better word for it, but essentially the ideal that whether there is a God or not, nobody should be required to believe in Him or follow His commands). All of these ideals run contrary to Christian ideals, even if they can lead to some of the same principles.

 

[FireDragon76]

Did not even stop for a moment to think about it in that light. I have now gone from jealousy to feeling empathy and as already done in this thread by kind members, will also pray for her.

Being a Christian should lead us towards empathy and being more open towards ourselves and other people. Focusing on success, whether worldly or spiritual, is a superficial way to relate to the world and other people.

 

[Edo2]

She chose to build herself up while you chose to glorify god. Sometimes that's not always an easy thing to do in a world that can look down upon believers in Christ.

 

[thesunisout]

Hi All, hope everyone is doing well and living gloriously in Christ!

Had an interesting conversation yesterday with a non-believer, who actually (in a way, maybe it was just my perception) looked down on me for following Jesus. She is a successful career woman who has achieved much and lives a good life, she gives to the needy, generally doesnt speak ill of others and lives by a lot of "Godly principles". (Do unto others as you want done to yourself, etc, etc).

She feels accomplished that she has achieved this all on her own and hinted at the subtle changes in me (as i continue my daily struggle with patience, being more graceful and controlling my spewing tongue, it must be paying off).

It's not that she said anything directly, but implication flowed from our conversation that she considers it "cheating" that i have help, ("i can do anything through God who gives me strength" came up). It made me feel like i am weaker than what she is, not being able to amount to much without God's Holy Intervention in my life.

I KNOW this is the devil working to sow doubt in my mind, and i am by no means ashamed of it that i need God. I dont think so anyway. It DID however raise a few questions internally which i wish it hadnt.

She is a good person, in my opinion and lives a "clean" life. Without God? I dont want to consider that she draws her strength from the devil, because she does not "bear bad fruits" if i can phrase it that way.

How come she is able to do this all on her own?

Matthew 5:44-45

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

God is good and kind to sinners. He blesses them, gives them prosperity. They also are made in the image of God. It doesn't say anything about you that this woman is able to do what she does; it is Gods grace. She thinks she is doing it but actually it is Gods grace that allows her to do it. Consider that our very breath is in His hand according to Daniel and the Psalms.

Her need and your need is equally great. Without Gods grace, we would all perish. We all are weak and needy before our Almighty Creator; she simply doesn't realize where her help comes from, but you do.

 

[Pixey]

Being a Christian should lead us towards empathy and being more open towards ourselves and other people. Focusing on success, whether worldly or spiritual, is a superficial way to relate to the world and other people.

Agreed. My motivation for my post was more because she made me feel inferior. I am fighting my own battles (oh sooo many of them) still and it's so darn easy to get my back up against a wall (#WIP).

It's nice to have a platform where i can go to (especially when i get wrapped up in myself) - and have ya'll kindly remind me of what to focus on and what not. <3

As a bonus, i am no longer feeling like a L0$3R for not measuring up (in my own mind) to this person. Getting help from God does not make me weak after all