Anyone Remember what happened to Carlton Pearson? Also, how to deal with Inclusion Doctrine in WOF?

de1929 · Jan 13, 2016

Gxg (G²) said:
...
I will go with the Biblical example.
...

we follow joseph prince aproach.
1. don't follow traditional christian mindset.
2. keep confessing while sinning.
example below
http://www.josephprince.org/daily-grace/praise-reports/single/set-free-from-smoking-addiction/

Gxg (G²) · Jan 13, 2016

de1929 said:
we follow joseph prince aproach.
1. don't follow traditional christian mindset.
2. keep confessing while sinning.
example below
http://www.josephprince.org/daily-grace/praise-reports/single/set-free-from-smoking-addiction/

You do not not follow Joseph Prince when you misrepresent him consistently and his own words disagree with you. The testimony was as follows:

In May 2012, I was sitting in my garage smoking when Joseph Prince Ministries’ Destined To Reign came on air. In that particular broadcast, Pastor Prince happened to be talking about overcoming the addiction of smoking by declaring that “I am the righteousness of God in Christ.” He specifically mentioned to declare and speak those words even if you are smoking and are holding a cigarette in your hand.

I have to admit I felt really awkward at first but I decided to do it. I wrote down the words and began saying these words throughout the days.

Within two to three days of doing this, I noticed my craving for cigarettes had weakened. Every day, the desire to smoke became lesser and lesser and by the first week in July 2013, I stopped smoking completely.

I thank God for His help and for the sermon that Pastor Joseph Prince preached that day. Thank you, Pastor Prince!

The writer has requested to remain anonymous | Oklahoma, United States

February 2014

The goal for the man in the testimony was to stop smoking. He confessed what God's Word says about him when it comes to transformation and GOD Calling us to walk in righteousness. And as a result, the man was set free. This has happened many times before and others here have noted it.

And Joseph Prince has said this clearly on a number of occassions. From his website at
Only Christ's Atonement Satisfies God - Joseph Prince
:

1 John 2:1–2
…if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins…
Today, Jews still observe Yom Kippur or the Day of Atonement. As the name suggests, it is a day set aside to make atonement for one’s sins. But for Christians, this beautiful feast points to Jesus and what He did for us on the cross. Because of His sacrifice, all our sins have already been perfectly atoned for. That is why, should we sin, we know that “we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous”. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins.

Now, it does not say that if anyone repents, we have an Advocate with the Father. It says that if anyonesins, we have an Advocate with the Father. The moment a child of God sins, straightaway, his Advocate, Jesus Christ, goes into action to pray for and protect him.

What about repentance then?

The word “repentance” is metanoia in the Greek, which means to change one’s mind. For example, you used to believe that Jesus was just a good man. Then one day, you repented and believed that He is the Son of the living God, who died for your sins and rose again on the third day, and you gladly took Him as your Savior.

Bible repentance is not this idea of hitting or punishing yourself to atone for your sins. Don’t turn it into a human work, like the man who went to a priest to confess his sins. When they were done, the priest asked the man, “By the way, what do you do for a living?” The man replied, “I’m a contortionist,” and proceeded to give a demonstration. Another man came along wanting to confess his sins. When he saw the contortionist all twisted up on the ground, he said, “If this is repentance, forget it!” and ran off!

My friend, there is no need to climb the Himalayas or whip your back bloody to atone for your sins. No amount of self-punishment or crying can atone for them. Your sins have already been punished fully in the body of Jesus. Only His finished work satisfies God. So change your mind and simply believe that Jesus alone is the propitiation for your sins!

Thought For The Day
No amount of self-punishment can atone for your sins. Just rest in the truth that Jesus alone is the propitiation for your sins!

Additionally, for other testimonies from his site showing where Biblical grace understood led to change:

REVELATION OF GOD’S GRACE BROUGHT FREEDOM FROM PORNOGRAPHY ADDICTION
I’ve been going to church since I was a kid but I didn’t understand how much God really loves me. I’d looked at God like He was a mean, angry old man who expected perfection out of me.

I’ve known about Pastor Prince for a few years because my mother watches Trinity Broadcasting Network. However, I didn’t really pay attention to his teachings until August 2011. At that time, I was in bondage to pornography.

I’m 21 this year and I became addicted to pornography when I was 14. I would watch it at least once a day. I would lock the door to my room so no one could know, but at the same time I was trying to lock God out of my situation. I knew it wasn’t right because I would always feel ashamed.

People say that they have a hard time hearing God, but I would actually hear God most clearly in my spirit right before I watched pornography. I would hear Him say, “This is not what I have planned for you.”

As God would have it, in August 2011, I watched two video sermons by Pastor Prince titled, Breaking Porn Addiction Through Grace and How Believers Fall From Grace on YouTube. Even though I’ve been saved for 16 years, I never knew what grace was until I watched these videos.

Whenever I sinned, I would always ask God to forgive me, then I would make the mistake of saying, “I won’t watch anymore,” or “I won’t give in to this sin anymore.” But because I was prideful and I trusted my flesh, I would fall back into my old habits within 24 hours! That was how deep I was in the quicksand—I kept trying by my own efforts to escape, instead of letting Him pick me up.

Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed...”

I needed to be set free but I couldn’t do it on my own. Wrong teaching in the past taught me that it’s all based on what I do, or don’t do. If salvation was based on my goodness, then why would God send Jesus? God sent Jesus because it isn’t based on my obedience or lack of it. It’s based on His obedience at the cross!

I had no idea that law was demand, and that grace was supply. Growing up, I was always sin-conscious, instead of being conscious of my righteousness in Christ. So when I saw Pastor Prince’s sermons, true repentance was taking place in my heart and mind.

I prayed a simple prayer saying, “By God’s grace, I will not watch, or give in to sexual sin anymore.” The difference is God’s grace! Who knew adding two words to my prayer made all the difference! And here I am to say that one year later, I haven’t watched pornography! By God's grace, this long-term bondage has been broken!

It’s so awesome how good God’s grace is. I believe that if I had not watched Pastor Prince’s videos, I would still be lost. I would still be under the law, and sin would still have dominion over me.

Praise God for the gospel of grace, which is revealing who Jesus is to me. The law reveals how bad I am, but grace reveals how awesome God is! Thank you very much, Pastor Prince, for being a light shining for Jesus! God bless you!

Geoffrey Brooks | Texas, United States

Ceasing to sin came from focusing on God's Word and what God has said. And to be clear, I've owned the book by Joseph Prince, to be clear, as shared before in previous conversations:

ABlessedMan said:
"I give thanks to God for my roots in the Word of Faith teachings. It is truly on the shoulders of great men of God like Brother Kenneth E Hagin that we are able to see further into the Word of God today. Growing up, I learned alot about faith from Brother Hagin who truly had a special revelation of faith from the Lord. I deeply honor and respect him for all the he has taught me."

"However, after many generations of faith teachings, there are people who have turned faith into a work. Have you heard people saying "Oh, this thing happened to you because you don't have enough faith" or " Oh, you have to have great faith to see that breakthrough"? I don't know how you feel when you hear things like that, but I always felt condemned for not having more faith"

"Now, I know that faith is the opposite of the law, and that the more people become self-conscious, and the more they look at their self-efforts to recieve from the Lord, the more faith is depleted from them. So when the Lord opened my eyes to grace, I changed what I was preaching entirely and I began to declare to my people, "There's nothing wrong with God, nothing wrong with the Word and guess what? Through the blood of Jesus, there's nothing wrong with you! Recieve your miracle!"

-- from pp. 271-272 Destined to Reign softcover. Joseph Prince

Ok. I'll put myself on the block since I claim Joel not as WoF (although a very fine preacher of the positive confession) and I claim Joseph Prince is WoF. Some would disagree.

Above are some quotes from a couple pages in his Destined to Reign book. Clearly he identifies himself as having "roots in the Word of Faith" movement. Some say that that "However" and the "I changed what I was preaching" to be his admonition that he turned or backed away. I say no, he simply began to give focus to Grace where early Word/Faith (under Hagin and early Copeland) did not focus on such.

Do these quotes cause concern for anyone (WoF) here?

As for me, I teach that one hinderance to receiving a miracle is "little faith." But I agree with Joseph that we do not "have to have great faith to see [a] breakthrough." God knows our heart and our desire. We could have small (not little) faith, but desire deeper faith and God will still help us receive. He'll also teach us how to grow that faith. I make the distinction between "little" and "small" as this: "little" are people not trying (Nazareth, disciples in the storm, etc.) while "small" is simply one who desires great faith but has not learned and exercised it enough ("Lord, I believe; help my unbelief").

So, even if you are not a faith giant (yet), you can still "receive your miracle" because of Grace. God will, as a daddy takes his little child's hand to help, take our hand and lift us up, point us in the right direction, and give us a pat on the rear to get us going. He'll smile when we walk. He'll chuckle when we fall. And He'll lift us up again and encourage us forward in our "small" faith. We don't deserve the help, but it comes because He loves us. That's Grace.

And it is this "rebalancing" of faith and grace that Joseph Prince has brought to the body, and especially to the Word/Faith movement.

Gxg (G²) said:

On point.

“I give thank for God for my roots in the Word of Faith teachings. It is truly on the shoulders of great men of God like Brother Kenneth E. Hagin that we are able to see further into the Word of God today. Growing up, I learned a lot about faith from Brother Hagin who truly had a special revelation of faith from the Lord. I deeply honor and respect him for all that he has taught me.”

-Joseph Prince, Destined to Reign: The Secret to effortless success, wholeness and victorious living (Singapore: Joseph Prince Media, 2007), 271.
If I may say in fellowship, I liked the book "Destined to Reign"...which was given to me by another WOF minister years ago (back in 2008) named Jason Kerr...(with Lester Summural's ministry) and it REALLY came in handy, as some of my close friends ended up getting sucked into a Hebrew Roots cult that focused exclusively on the need for believers to keep the Law (to the point of legalism and ignoring what the scriptures said about the righteousness of Christ we now have in Him). Having the knowledge of what Brother Joseph brought really kept me from falling prey to that.....

I always saw Joseph as WOF with a different emphasis than others (concerning his passion for preaching God's righteousness and grace), as what he taught was exactly what I grew up hearing from the WOF teachers I lived life with (who themselves were working with Jessie Duplantis and Lester Sumurall)...and they were the ones who pointed him to me.

I know Joseph Prince has long been working with the Hillsong Conferences when it comes to the world of Asia, just as Joyce Myers has always been another connected with HillSong....and his working with others outside the faith movement is something that makes him stand out since HillSong is not an environment that exclusively promotes only what's taught in the Faith Movement. There are others from numerous camps/denominations united for preaching the Gospel....and thus, Joseph Price is different from many in that he seeks to keep the main thing the main thing: Jesus. For Joseph, truth is truth regardless of where it is found and he has a heart for unity in the Body of Christ/networking with other groups (similar to what Myles Monroe has often done as you noted before ). That...and what he does is symbolic of new generations of WOF that have long evolved into differing variations to handle the current times..and very much distinct from some of the older generations. The fact that what he does is impacting the world of Asia and helping others to develop economically/spiritually is truly amazing, especially when seeing the ways people rarely discussed how faith impacted other cultures apart from the U.S.

It turns out that Richard Roberts (Oral Robert's son) was in Joseph Prince church prophesying very recently...not really surprising since Richard & Benny Hinn have great following in Singapore. When I heard of that, I was not surprised to see the common links between both men (Roberts and Prince). For although New Creation Church is Charismatic in practice, its non-denominational in their claims...and yet Joseph Prince has long made clear his connections to the founder of the Faith Movement, despite where he may differ from it on certain respects when it comes to application---and as it Lim Johnson noted in the 2002 book entitled "A Different Gospel: Fact, Faith, Fiction & The Christian Faith," Lim mentions, “it is possible for mainline churches to be part of this Movement but not teach everything associated with it." In a sermon done by Prince entitled "Walking in the undeserved favor of God" (28/3/04), he said the following:

“Now I've been in the Word of Faith circle and I find that Word of Faith preachers know about favor. Churches of faith know about favor. The thing that I wish many of them would say though would be this - to use that phase - undeserved favor. Favor is good and the teaching of favor has produced tremendous testimonies but I would rather the Word of Faith preachers like myself use undeserved favor because that's the true definition of grace. Now I didn't learn amazing grace from Word of Faith though I'm a Word of Faith preacher. I had to learn that truly struggling on my own”.

Joseph Prince is very much a blessing (IMHO)---and do appreciate his emphasis when it comes to the subject of Faith. Something that caught my attention was when he was once preaching and claimed the lack of faith in forgiveness was the real reason why people are hard on their family members. One person noted how they were married and really treating their spouse badly when their was conflict---and they realized how their treatment was based on the fact that they really didn't understand grace. It was a blessing hearing that, as many times people apply faith in terms of simply believing for material things one desires or struggles one goes through...and yet, when it comes to forgiveness, that never gets brought up. And its interesting since even Christ noted it in Luke 17:1-6. Hpw often has it been the case people know they're to love/forgive and yet when praying to God for help on the issue, it still feels inwardly like part of themselves is not involved.

Great thread, Bob

Click to expand...

And the book itself always noted how focus on whast God's Word says is part of getting FREE from sin - and not remaining in it.

Your own claims are centered on claiming God doesn't care if you remain in sin. There's a clear difference and Joseph Prince said what you are claiming was wrong.

Thus, trying to use him for your own cause/attempts to make a teaching that does not deal with what God's Word says is never beneficial. Moreover, Jospeh Prince was never against being a traditional Christian - that was your own claim without basis. He was already being traditional when he called sin sin, condemned it and noted that repenting of the behavior is what God desired (as said earlier from the OP). And again, it is never good to misrepresent who others are.

We follow the Word of God - and others following that are the ones to follow. Joseph Prince has noted this before on several occasions when it comes to not taking God's Word out of context. Confession of sin was NEVER about condoning the sin or claiming that one was to keep sinning while confessing. You have to repent, with confession meant to encourage you in remembering what God has said in the Word about your sin pattern.

And for others in WOF who've noted the same, one may also investigate Charles Capps when he noted that Biblical confession was always centered on doing what God's Word says:

That said, again, anything going opposite of what God has said in His Word is NOT of God and it's why it is not tolerated.

If one is unable to deal with scriptures noting directly where Jesus both actively condemned sin and encouraged others to REPENT with wickedness (i.e. sexual immorality, murder, theft, anger, etc.), they are not truly dealing with Jesus AND are doing what the Apostles themselves resisted when it came to others going against the scriptures in order to have a license to sin instead of seeing where God's Grace/Christ never made sin have a pass. It's also NOT WOF in the slightest and that has been said on the forums before.

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17)

I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. (Luke 5:32)

The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. (Matthew 12:41)

Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3, 5)

Jesus, the Son of God, warned people of the judgment to come, and offering escape if we will repent. If we will not repent, Jesus has one word for us, “Woe, to you” (Matthew 11:21). This is always to be kept in mind when seeing that the demand for repentance is part of his central message that the kingdom of God is at hand. “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel” (Mark 1:15).

And Jude, the brother of Jesus, had to deal with the same issue when it came to others in his day doing exactly what others here are resisting since he had others in his time say "Why condemn sin?" and he addressed it flatly:

Jude 1:4 (KJV)

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude (KJV)
1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

I will go with the Biblical example. Furthermore, as I have noted repsectfully, if you are unwilling to deal with the OP or the topic of the thread, then one is not really staying on topic ....that is not for the thread. Please stop.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 13, 2016

Simon the Tanner said:
I lived in Tulsa for 20 years and I visited Pearson's church once. He never really was WoF, although there was naturally some overlap being a Charismatic pastor in Tulsa and all. It's interesting that you should bring him up, because I'm reading his book The Gospel of Inclusion for research on a blog post I'm writing about universalism. The guy is all over the place, theologically. One minute he's spouting New Thought, the next it's New Age, then he dabbles a bit in yin and yang/dualism. In one chapter he'll cite scripture to support what he says, and the next chapter he'll tell you how unreliable the Bible is. Bottom line, he has no set theology. It's all about Carlton and his childhood trauma from the doctrine of hell.

If my memory serves correct, there are other places where Carlton Pearson has been referenced in his work before and it's not a small issue. In example,

In example, with what I heard when I grew up in WOF since it was addressed several times, Leaders in the Faith Movement such as G.Craig Lewis, who works actively with Fredrick Price's Church (Fredrick Price Jr now pastoring it) actually spoke actively on the issue when sharing here where they were discussing homosexuality/LGBTQ in the church and how it is affecting the body of Christ.....discussing this with Pastor DL Foster, founder of the Gay Christian Movement Watch (
Podcast with G. Craige Lewis | Gay Christian Movement Watch )

And there are others still seeing some of the things he spoke on being cited outright by New Age Groups - with Carlton himself doing as you noted with promoting New Age.

Simon the Tanner · Jan 13, 2016

I love G. Craig Lewis. He's right here in the Dallas area and he was the only one I heard take issue with T. D. Jakes for his dabbling with Babylon by bringing Oprah and other New Age people into his church.

de1929 · Jan 13, 2016

Gxg (G²) said:
You do not not follow Joseph Prince when you misrepresent him .

Have you noticed both Joseph Prince and I put Grace above punishment ? it's not about balance, it's about grace above punishment.

You push balanced theology, which is not wof at all.

like i said earlier, wof and orthodox has a different mindset, different value.

ABlessedAnomaly · Jan 13, 2016

Gxg (G²) said:
In practical example, same sex relationships are wrong and LGBTQ. God never approved of them, never accepted them or blessed them. Anyone saying "The Holy Spirit says to me that they are GOOD!!!" is not following the Holy Spirit as he has revealed Himself in the Word - since God already condemned that flatly in Genesis 19 with Sodom and Gommorah and other ministries. There are others today who seek to say otherwise, but they show by practice that they neither know God NOR do they love Him because God said plainly those who love him will obey His commandment.

This is so true.

God said:

1 Cor 6:9-10 (NET)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The homosexual will not inherit the kingdom of God. It doesn't matter is teachers like Carlton want to teach inclusion, the scripture is quite clear.

This does not mean that the homosexual can't change and be saved. But once told the truth they have a choice to make. Because...

1 Jn 3:8 (NET)
The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil.

If one practices a sin, such as homosexuality, and after hearing the truth continues to practice it, they have given themselves over to the devil. They are of the devil according to scripture.

I've read this in the Logos and it told me what God has to say on the matter. I prayed about it and the Holy Spirit gave me Rhema about it, understanding that the homosexual having heard the Word and continuing in their sin is of the devil.

de1929 · Jan 14, 2016

ABlessedMan said:
I prayed about it and the Holy Spirit gave me Rhema about it, understanding that the homosexual having heard the Word and continuing in their sin is of the devil.

you are right, and this website from Joseph Prince (JP) also right.
http://www.josephprince.org/daily-grace/praise-reports/single/set-free-from-smoking-addiction/

how come your RHEMA and JP RHEMA seems contradicting ? it's because you and JP are serving 2 different group.

that's why i said in wof movements, doctrine is very minimum. JP said doctrine is a product of tree-of-knowledge-of-good-and-evil. What matters is people being changed from glory to glory. Be it ABM way, or JP way.

-- which group am reader suppose to be---
1. it is time for church to grow smarter and smarter than before.
2. We follow teacher that help us to liberate from our bondage, not to cripple us from our destiny.
2a. For somebody that comfortable with ABM way, so you go ABM way
2b. For somebody that comfortable with JP way, so you go JP way
3. Pray and get RHEMA. GOD will lead you to either ABM way, JP way or perhaps DE1929 way... or something else... who can fathom GOD's mind ?

Gxg (G²) · Jan 14, 2016

de1929 said:
Have you noticed both Joseph Prince and I put Grace above punishment ? it's not about balance, it's about grace above punishment.

You already noted otherwise, d - specifically in regards to claiming that to sin are never to be punished. In regards to your own words, you earlier promoted a thread that was banned elsewhere as evidence of God's work (as seen in http://www.christianforums.com/thre...lusion-doctrine-in-wof.7926986/#post-69116815 ) - and yet The thread you referenced on another website actually leads to another conversation where you shared opposite of Joseph Prince when condoning same sex relationships in November before claiming to be WOF in December:

(puchongite @ Nov 25 2015, 02:04 PM)
Skip the word condemn.

Use the word "approve" or "accept" instead.

Does your belief approve LGBT ? Does JESUS approve LGBT ? Does HE allow/accept LGBT to lead a life which he/she wants ?

de1929
Nov 25 2015, 04:22 PM

Click to expand...

For all 3 questions... yes..yes..yes

why ? because everybody is different. some understand spiritual realm, some don't.

you can't force somebody who does not understand spiritual realm things to manage spiritual realm right ?

Click to expand...

That has been said at CF as well - and on the issue, that is NOT Balance nor is it Grace above punishment - for your sentiments are a matter of ignoring punishment and God getting us out of it by offering His grace, which we accept and show evidence of that by REPENTING of our sins in order to show that His Grace is real.

James noted this directly:

James 2:23
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Joseph Prince NEVER approved LGBT.

Joseph Prince NEVER said Jesus approves of LGBT.

Joseph Prince NEVER said others were allowed to live in a LGBT lifestyle however they wish and serve Jesus.

To say otherwise is to spread a falsehood on Joseph Prince and that is something the Bible calls out flatly.

Joseph Price has never advocated anything close to what you said (as even he noted plainly others in sin needed to REPENT) and you have chosen to misrepresent him plainly. It will never be acceptable since it is what St. Jude warned on when claiming others are making the grace of God into a license to sin. Thus again, it'd behoove you to truly understand grace Biblically and not take Joseph Prince out of context with what he has said.

Price has already condemned sexual sin as do ALL of WOF, regardless of falsely claiming (in the name of WOF) that he and others have not.

As an aside, this is is something other WOF members have long noted when it comes to the issue of same sex attraction being a problem. That is not WOF and something others have said repeatedly is a matter of bad representation when the teachers have said directly opposite.

As said in the forum:

hhodgson said:

Yes, a (true) born-again Christian can "back away" from God through sin and unbelief but God won't "back away" from you. ..."I will NEVER leave you or forsake you" Hebrews 13:5. God will always be there, no matter what! If WE walk away from God from the cares of the world would diminish what He has done for us. The "good news" of GRACE is once we recognize what we are doing, we can reverse the process by (looking back to the cross) and repent and stay in the fullness of God.

Click to expand...

hhodgson said:
As I said earlier... I don't believe that these "workers" of iniquities are true Christians at all. That shows a (lifestyle) of the wrong fruit. I am just responding to your choice of words... "workers of iniquity" which clearly shows in the Bible that the Lord never knew them.

hhodgson said:
Psalm 6:8
"Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity; for the LORD has heard the voice of my weeping."
Matthew7:23
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
Other translations of iniquity: evildoers, workers of lawlessness, practices lawlessness, you lawbreakers, practices evil, workers of evil, evil people, doers of wickedness.

Again, true Christians will not live a sinful lifestyle. (Keyword... "True" and "live")

If they are open about their fleshly lifestyles then where is the changed life? The struggling Christian will repent.

Why would there be an odd reason to listen to Prince and Osteen? As far as I know, neither one teaches this, especially Prince since I listen to him alot. One of the best books written (imo) in recent years is Destined To Reign by Joseph Prince. Thanks for reminding me. I'm just about ready to read it again. I think it's the fourth time. As for Joel Osteen, I admit I don't listen to him often, but... a little while back I went through something and went to my "favorites" to get God's encouragement and the ONLY one I felt that God led me to was... Joel Osteen. Thank God I listened to that still small voice. Osteen's encouragement to me was not short of amazing.

Be Blessed to be a BLESSING... View attachment 161411

View attachment 161412

This has also been said by other WOF in places such as How would you minister to survivors of childhood sexual molestation...

And as said in another place plainly years ago:

ABlessedMan said:
Coming late to this party....I agree with this. I'll go back and see what started it all, but...

3 For even though I am absent physically, I am present in spirit. And I have already judged the one who did this, just as though I were present. 4 When you gather together in the name of our Lord Jesus, and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 turn this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. 6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast affects the whole batch of dough? 7 Clean out the old yeast so that you may be a new batch of dough - you are, in fact, without yeast. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 So then, let us celebrate the festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of vice and evil, but with the bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
1 Cor 5:3-8 (NET)
Paul was talking here about a man who had sex with his mother. Forbidden in scripture, just as homosexuality is forbidden. Unrepentant sin will corrupt that which is holy. And Paul, indeed God through Paul, left no room for this defilement to enter in.

So, a homosexual (or fornicators or idolaters or ...) who do not yet know that their actions are wrong, have not yet been taught that they live in sin, can be allowed in for the purpose of instructing them in righteousness. But once they understand that they are practicing sin (1 John 3) and they continue in it, then they identify themselves as children of the devil and not prodigal children.

Farm Truck said:

That's false teaching. True shepherds would not allow wolves in to try and teach them to not be wolves because the end result shall be sheep being hurt. This is a very basic concept that even a baby Christian should understand. I'm referring to those that think being gay is OK and they have no plans to repent because they see nothing wrong with it - they should be put out of the church.

ABlessedMan said:

Hi Farm Truck,

Nice post. Stay with me here, as I'll stay with you through this discussion. Remember, we are talking, discussing, not fighting (as your last sentiments seem to say). There are many places in this post where you make my argument for me so that you can knock it down. That's called a straw man. Better if you simply make your point and respond to my points instead of making my argument for me.

You are likely right that I won't convince you and you won't convince me, but we will plant seeds, and the good seeds of the Word will grow. We both love the Lord and desire His will, so the ground is fertile and good.

Let's have a good discussion (passion is ok!) and not let that slip away.

------

One other point I'd like to make is that while I believe God's Grace is wonderful, and I am OSAS, but there is a difference between a teacher of Grace and a teacher of "extreme Grace." You are correct that the extreme grace person seems to think that they have a license to sin. We know this isn't the case for Paul told us so in Romans 6. So please, don't count me in that crowd.

So, are you up for discussion?

Not quite sure why OSAS's truthfulness stands or falls on God's image. As far as sowing and reaping is concerned it is correct.

7 Do not be deceived. God will not be made a fool. For a person will reap what he sows, 8 because the person who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
Gal 6:7-8 (NET)
If we sow to the flesh we reap ... what? "Corruption from the flesh." Sickness. Disease. Galatians 6 is not speaking of salvation, but our walk, our deeds, carrying our load. This is speaking of physical matters.

Yes, Jesus is the High priest. But unlike the OT priests He doesn't make atonement for our sins daily (or yearly).

11 And every priest stands day after day serving and offering the same sacrifices again and again - sacrifices that can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 where he is now waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet . 14 For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy.
Heb 10:11-14 (NET)
The OT priests stood day after day. Jesus took away our sins with ONE sacrifice for all time. Perhaps, maybe, this was one sacrifice but we repent over and over for our sins. But that's not what verse 14 says: one offering has perfected all whom are made holy for all time.

So who are the ones being made holy? Well, we missed that by one verse above. Let's back up one to see:

By his will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:10 (NET)
We are made holy. How? Through the offering of Jesus Christ. How long does it last? For all time (v14).

You mention verse 26 in your quotes. Let's take a look.

26 For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us, 27 but only a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume God's enemies .
Heb 10:26-27 (NET)
What does this say? "Deliberate, repeated sin." Understand one thing as we look at this phrase, that "receiving the knowledge of the truth" is NOT salvation -- it is simply hearing the Gospel message. Look at Matthew 13:18-23. The Word is sown AND it is heard, received. The seed on rocky ground was even "received with joy!". But it had no root. There is no salvation resulting from it. People receive the knowledge all the time and do nothing with it.

So, these people commit "deliberate, repeated sin." They practice sin. They do not desire to stop. Well, the Word tells us about such people:

7 Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous. 8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil.
1 Jn 3:7-8 (NET)
Practice righteousness, you are of God. Practice sin, you are of the devil.

hhodgson said:

According to what Bob posted (ABlessedMan), that (truth) may have already came out about T.D. Jakes. We'll wait and see how Brian Houston at Hillsong Church deals with it. And for those who don't know. Brian Houston pastors the Hillsong Church in Sydney, Australia. Some years ago I was in Sydney, Australia and if his ministry was there at the time, It would have been nice to go check it out.

Let's not (pre-judge) and give up on them FT, or any other ministry that may need to proclaim what to say behind their pulpits concerning this very powerful, and highly influential end-time deception movement of the "Gay Revolution" that's (already) accepted in every facet of leadership in our country, including the executive, legislative, judicial, and even the military branches of our goverment. They are everywhere from the top down in our society and God forbid... yes, even in our churches. Satan would love to see our nation as the (gay capital country) of the world. Hmmm... Just remembered. (Sodom and Gomorrah?) Remember this... View attachment 162033

We'll have to keep our discerning spiritual eyes open to this "Gay Revolution" (LGBT), that I believe (may) be the "leading deception" of "hypocrisy" of the coming end-time last days that would lead millions to the "great falling away" before Jesus returns.

Does the Lord have something in (His plan) to counter this "abounding" SIN..? (hint)

While this ungodly Gay Revolution abomination is running wild, there is a returning godly movement re-gaining momentum as well, that some call... The Grace Revolution that initially began... after the Ressurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (from the dead) who offered Himself as the sin sacrifice for the whole world. I use the word "re-gaining" because over the years God's GRACE has been so diluted, polluted and watered down by mixing with law (our efforts) that had little to no affect. We can thank God that He raised up saints such as Joseph Prince and others to re-teach the whole counsel of God as the full Good News message of the Gospel. "The just shall live by faith" (and) "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." Hebrews 10:38a, Hebrews 11:6a. The Lord said that if we draw back (from faith) that He shall have no pleasure in us.

The writer of Hebrews says it very clearly. "but if any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him." Hebrews 10:38b. Hebrews 4:2 "For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

The critics call this full GRACE teaching (you've heard them all)... hyper-grace, extreme grace, exaggerated grace, cheap grace, greasy grace, modern grace, false grace, tickle grace, licentious grace, etc. It just amazes me that some are teaching or (suggesting) that... the end-time "great falling away" will be caused by none other than this modern day "Grace Revolution" View attachment 162028... when actually, it's teaching the whole counsel of God.

The critics of the (modern grace message) are quick to quote these (below) scriptures describing this false message (as they say)... as the end-time apostasy.

2 Peter 2:1-3 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality (sexual immorality?), and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their "judgment" from (long ago) is not idle, and their "destruction" is not asleep. (Could this bold part be describing the judgment and distruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?)

Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, (turning the grace) of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."
Notice the bold parts? So I think maybe a question that we should ask ourself and the critics is... "how..? and where..?" is the modern grace gospel (denying) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ?? Even Dr. Brown admits that they are God loving saints without a doubt. (Dr. Michael Brown wrote the popular book... Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message)

Dr. Michael Brown..."Some people gravitate to the hyer-grace message because they have sensitive consciences or because they have been burned by legalism or they feel as if they always fall short or they were not raised by a loving and affirming father. They really do love the Lord and they are not looking for and excuse to sin, and finally, hearing this message, they have found a place of rest and acceptance in the Lord, and they are actually working harder for Him than ever."
Are there any abusers of this modern full GRACE message? Absolutely! No different than any other doctrine or movement. Name just one doctrine that don't have something that someone else would consider heretical? If time permits, along with interest, we'll deal with some of the abuses, the misunderstandings, and misrepresentations of some that are calling this a "distorted and dangerous" message that could lead millions to hell. Dr. Michael Brown said something similar in his book.

Let's compare the Gay Revolution and the Grace Revolution. How did Jesus say we would know them? Matthew 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.… Galatians 5:22-23

If we were to examine the fruit of these grace teachers. What would we find? Listed below are some of the major proponents of the modern grace gospel message for those reading this may be familiar with some of them...

I could list many, many more teachers of the Grace Revolution, some known, some well known such as Joseph Prince, Clark Whitten, Steve McVey, Paul Ellis (Escape to Reality), Andrew Farley, Rob an Ryan Rufus, John Chowder, John Sheasby, Simon Yap, Andrew Wommack, Watchman Nee, Dudly Hall, Judah Smith, also (our own) Benjamin Conway (King Zzub). Has anyone listened to Creflo Dollar lately?
So which is it (that is more in line) to cause millions to fall away from the end-time deception? The Gay Revolution or the Grace Revolution? Also consider this... (This is big!) Let's not forget the video I brought up earlier about the New Message and the New GOD. This group is really growing and has much of Holywood's elite. If the Body of Christ really speaks out about the "Gay Revolution" even in our mega-churches and they do get rooted out. "Where will they go?" The New Message of the New God movement will have open arms for them. This group along with other new age theologies will be a part of the end-time deception coupled with the Gay Revolution.

Back to my question above... What (could) be the Lord's plan to counter this "Gay Revolution" hypocrisy? "When sin abounded, grace did much more abound" (Romans 5:20).

The current "status quo" isn't working too well Farm Truck. I believe Romans 5:20 is one major end-time scripture message the Lord wants us to embrace for the times just ahead of us. And, I believe this full grace message of the gospel is awakening the Body of Christ in preparation for the end-time harvest of souls.

View attachment 162032

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ABlessedMan said:
Now as for anyone who has ties to a homosexual, this does not immediately "open a door" for demonic activity. We deal with people who have sin in their lives on a daily basis. If such interaction opened us to spirits entering us, then mankind would be infested with demons and Christianity would cease to exist. Homosexuality is a sin. It is no different from any other sin. Sin cannot be in the presence of God; God abhors sin. And Jesus' blood will wash sin away from us and we are to stop practicing our sins. It is this practicing that defines whether we are God's or whether we are the devil's (see 1 John 3).

So when we interact with someone who practices sin, our first reaction should be to teach them the error of their ways. When they reject this teaching we need to have patience, for this is how sinners will react to being told that they need to run from their sin. We need to have patience and continue to witness to them with longsuffering (the same way that God dealt with each and every one of us!). There will come a time to wipe the dust from our feet, but that time comes after much, much, much, much witness to the sinner.

So as for the leader who has a gay son living with him: does the leader witness the Word regarding the sin of homosexuality to the son? Or has the leader taken a position that it is ok that his son is gay? For this latter is not ok. And if the church follows the Word, and if this latter case is true -- if the leader says it is ok -- then the church leadership needs to remove this person from leadership. If the leader does not accept his son's homosexual desires, and if he is in continual witness to help his son overcome this sin, then it is not an immediate problem for him to have the son living at home. And it certainly will not be a portal for evil spirits to enter in.

For more verification, one can also go to the following:

There are many others besides that - but when knowing the forum history, things are not unclear.

You push balanced theology, which is not wof at all.

like i said earlier, wof and orthodox has a different mindset, different value.

Making accusations does little to show at any point where you've even come close to honoring WOF or showing you really understand it. Thus far, you have already taken Joseph Prince out of context and it is a falsehood to say otherwise. Thus far, it is a false teaching you are spreading which has nothing to do with WOF and it is something all in WOF have spoken on - and will be addressed regardless of how much you try to push against what Jesus said.

As already said earlier, you are not espousing WOF at any point you've shared in this entire thread - and it is a false teaching. Moreover, continuing on instead of addressing the subject of the OP is disrespectful since you are off topic. Please stop with the behavior.

de1929 said:
you are right, and this website from Joseph Prince (JP) also right.
http://www.josephprince.org/daily-grace/praise-reports/single/set-free-from-smoking-addiction/

Here again you willfully spread a falsehood against Joseph Prince since you did not even quote his website correctly or use the testimony as it was said, THUS showing there's no real concern for Joseph Prince whatsoever.

It is what it is, but You do not not follow Joseph Prince when you misrepresent him consistently and his own words disagree with you. The testimony from http://www.josephprince.org/daily-grace/praise-reports/single/set-free-from-smoking-addiction/ was as follows:

In May 2012, I was sitting in my garage smoking when Joseph Prince Ministries’ Destined To Reign came on air. In that particular broadcast, Pastor Prince happened to be talking about overcoming the addiction of smoking by declaring that “I am the righteousness of God in Christ.” He specifically mentioned to declare and speak those words even if you are smoking and are holding a cigarette in your hand.

I have to admit I felt really awkward at first but I decided to do it. I wrote down the words and began saying these words throughout the days.

Within two to three days of doing this, I noticed my craving for cigarettes had weakened. Every day, the desire to smoke became lesser and lesser and by the first week in July 2013, I stopped smoking completely.

I thank God for His help and for the sermon that Pastor Joseph Prince preached that day. Thank you, Pastor Prince!

The writer has requested to remain anonymous | Oklahoma, United States

February 2014

The goal for the man in the testimony was to stop smoking. He confessed what God's Word says about him when it comes to transformation and GOD Calling us to walk in righteousness. And as a result, the man was set free. This has happened many times before and others here have noted it.

And Joseph Prince has said this clearly on a number of occassions. From his website at
Only Christ's Atonement Satisfies God - Joseph Prince
:

1 John 2:1–2
…if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins…
Today, Jews still observe Yom Kippur or the Day of Atonement. As the name suggests, it is a day set aside to make atonement for one’s sins. But for Christians, this beautiful feast points to Jesus and what He did for us on the cross. Because of His sacrifice, all our sins have already been perfectly atoned for. That is why, should we sin, we know that “we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous”. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins.

Now, it does not say that if anyone repents, we have an Advocate with the Father. It says that if anyonesins, we have an Advocate with the Father. The moment a child of God sins, straightaway, his Advocate, Jesus Christ, goes into action to pray for and protect him.

What about repentance then?

The word “repentance” is metanoia in the Greek, which means to change one’s mind. For example, you used to believe that Jesus was just a good man. Then one day, you repented and believed that He is the Son of the living God, who died for your sins and rose again on the third day, and you gladly took Him as your Savior.

Bible repentance is not this idea of hitting or punishing yourself to atone for your sins. Don’t turn it into a human work, like the man who went to a priest to confess his sins. When they were done, the priest asked the man, “By the way, what do you do for a living?” The man replied, “I’m a contortionist,” and proceeded to give a demonstration. Another man came along wanting to confess his sins. When he saw the contortionist all twisted up on the ground, he said, “If this is repentance, forget it!” and ran off!

My friend, there is no need to climb the Himalayas or whip your back bloody to atone for your sins. No amount of self-punishment or crying can atone for them. Your sins have already been punished fully in the body of Jesus. Only His finished work satisfies God. So change your mind and simply believe that Jesus alone is the propitiation for your sins!

Thought For The Day
No amount of self-punishment can atone for your sins. Just rest in the truth that Jesus alone is the propitiation for your sins!

Additionally, for other testimonies from his site showing where Biblical grace understood led to change:

REVELATION OF GOD’S GRACE BROUGHT FREEDOM FROM PORNOGRAPHY ADDICTION
I’ve been going to church since I was a kid but I didn’t understand how much God really loves me. I’d looked at God like He was a mean, angry old man who expected perfection out of me.

I’ve known about Pastor Prince for a few years because my mother watches Trinity Broadcasting Network. However, I didn’t really pay attention to his teachings until August 2011. At that time, I was in bondage to pornography.

I’m 21 this year and I became addicted to pornography when I was 14. I would watch it at least once a day. I would lock the door to my room so no one could know, but at the same time I was trying to lock God out of my situation. I knew it wasn’t right because I would always feel ashamed.

People say that they have a hard time hearing God, but I would actually hear God most clearly in my spirit right before I watched pornography. I would hear Him say, “This is not what I have planned for you.”

As God would have it, in August 2011, I watched two video sermons by Pastor Prince titled, Breaking Porn Addiction Through Grace and How Believers Fall From Grace on YouTube. Even though I’ve been saved for 16 years, I never knew what grace was until I watched these videos.

Whenever I sinned, I would always ask God to forgive me, then I would make the mistake of saying, “I won’t watch anymore,” or “I won’t give in to this sin anymore.” But because I was prideful and I trusted my flesh, I would fall back into my old habits within 24 hours! That was how deep I was in the quicksand—I kept trying by my own efforts to escape, instead of letting Him pick me up.

Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed...”

I needed to be set free but I couldn’t do it on my own. Wrong teaching in the past taught me that it’s all based on what I do, or don’t do. If salvation was based on my goodness, then why would God send Jesus? God sent Jesus because it isn’t based on my obedience or lack of it. It’s based on His obedience at the cross!

I had no idea that law was demand, and that grace was supply. Growing up, I was always sin-conscious, instead of being conscious of my righteousness in Christ. So when I saw Pastor Prince’s sermons, true repentance was taking place in my heart and mind.

I prayed a simple prayer saying, “By God’s grace, I will not watch, or give in to sexual sin anymore.” The difference is God’s grace! Who knew adding two words to my prayer made all the difference! And here I am to say that one year later, I haven’t watched pornography! By God's grace, this long-term bondage has been broken!

It’s so awesome how good God’s grace is. I believe that if I had not watched Pastor Prince’s videos, I would still be lost. I would still be under the law, and sin would still have dominion over me.

Praise God for the gospel of grace, which is revealing who Jesus is to me. The law reveals how bad I am, but grace reveals how awesome God is! Thank you very much, Pastor Prince, for being a light shining for Jesus! God bless you!

Geoffrey Brooks | Texas, United States

Ceasing to sin came from focusing on God's Word and what God has said.

how come your RHEMA and JP RHEMA seems contradicting ? it's because you and JP are serving 2 different group.

that's why i said in wof movements, doctrine is very minimum. JP said doctrine is a product of tree-of-knowledge-of-good-and-evil. What matters is people being changed from glory to glory. Be it ABM way, or JP way.

-- which group am reader suppose to be---
1. it is time for church to grow smarter and smarter than before.
2. We follow teacher that help us to liberate from our bondage, not to cripple us from our destiny.
2a. For somebody that comfortable with ABM way, so you go ABM way
2b. For somebody that comfortable with JP way, so you go JP way
3. Pray and get RHEMA. GOD will lead you to either ABM way, JP way or perhaps DE1929 way... or something else... who can fathom GOD's mind ?

ABM and Joseph Prince in their DIRECT WORDS and Sermons already show where they are on the side of what Jesus said to be right - and in truth, you have placed yourself against Joseph Prince by your statements both AGAINST what Jesus has said about the Word and what Jesus COMMANDED when it came to saying that those in sin needed to REPENT. The APostles also noted the same thing with regards to those claiming to be for His Rhema and yet using it to promote sin.

Joseph Prince NEVER said doctrine was a product of the TREE of Knowledge and it'd be a falsehood to claim otherwise. There is NO change outside of changing according to God's Word, His doctrine and His Spirit. You are again spreading a false teaching and it will be resisted so long as you push it in opposition of WOF and in the name of Joseph Prince when he never supported that. What you are advocating is solely of your spirit - but it is NOT of God's Spirit.

But again, you are not following nor addressing the topic of the Original Post. That is something which is not to happen in threads and has been noted to be against the rules.

de1929 · Jan 14, 2016

Gxg (G²) said:
Joseph Prince NEVER approved LGBT.

Joseph Prince NEVER said Jesus approves of LGBT.

Joseph Prince NEVER said others were allowed to live in a LGBT lifestyle however they wish and serve Jesus.

Is that his own word ? or your conclusions ? surely your public stand conclusion.

JP and brian houston has the same value. They will not have a public stand. You did. You and your public stand stunt clearly spread condemnation in this forum. Remind us you are orthodox please.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/h...ngs-of-paul-are-clear-on-this-subject-128282/
http://www.charismanews.com/world/4...llsong-won-t-take-public-stand-on-lgbt-issues

Gxg (G²) · Jan 14, 2016

de1929 said:
Is that his own word ? or your conclusions ? surely your public stand conclusion.

JP and brian houston has the same value. They will not have a public stand. You did.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/h...ngs-of-paul-are-clear-on-this-subject-128282/
http://www.charismanews.com/world/4...llsong-won-t-take-public-stand-on-lgbt-issues

You were already noted directly what his (JPs) words were - and avoided dealing with them. Others were aware of Joseph Prince long before you arrived here.And once again, when you claim that the Word of God says one can remain in sexual sin, you divorce yourself from God's Word AND God's Rhema since men are not the standard. God's Word is. Claiming God accepts LGBTQ has never been WOF and it is a falsehood trying to claim otherwise. It is also false claiming JP accepts your view since he has condemned it FLATLY - AND that will always be a matter of resisting God to claim otherwise.

And again, on the issue I have already spoken on what others have said in regards to Brian and Gay Christian theology (As seen here in http://www.christianforums.com/thre...lusion-doctrine-in-wof.7926986/#post-69116899 )

Brian Houston was never the standard of God's Spirit - and by your logic, God was wrong to condemn Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19. But of course, Jesus already noted plainly where God was right for doing so.

Matthew 11:22-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Mark 6:11
And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!”

2 Peter 2:5-7New King James Version (NKJV)
5 God did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked

Jude 6-8New King James Version (NKJV)
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.

JP and brian houston has the same value. They will not have a public stand. You did.

Once again, your words have shown plainly where there is no honoring Joseph Prince in what He took, thus again showing you have no concern for Joseph's stand since he was very public on it.

In Joseph Prince's OWN words rather than any you may wish to make up in his name:

And of course, as Joseph Prince said plainly, grace leads to REPENTANCE. You, of course, claim otherwise - but what you say is neither what the Word of God says or what Joseph Prince has said:

As an aside, seeking to focus on others (despite where no one ever asked you to be present within this thread that you chose to speak in).....that will never be good when you are already against dealing with the OP (as you are willfully going off topic rather than being respectful to others by staying focused on the main topic) and have been asked to cease. Continuing on is never acceptable.

Additionally, actively promoting LGBTQ is not a good thing.

The WOF SOF states plainly the following:

Davidnic said:
Homosexuality and Same Sex Marriage:
Homosexuality and same sex marriage may be discussed in this forum, however, no promotion of these topics is allowed. Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.

House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

That is the stance of the forum.

You and your public stand stunt clearly spread condemnation in this forum.

Once again, trying to focus on others does nothing for showing where you are in line with WOF. As it is, you do not represent it and have gone against it at several points, especially when claiming Jesus never condemned sin (false) or claiming Joseph Prince has never condemned sin (False) and ignoring the scriptures on the matter. When what you're advocating goes against Jesus Christ, It really does not matter what you believe on the issue.

It is what it is.

Remind us you are orthodox please.

Reminder - you have no basis nor right spreading the ideology that homosexuality or LGBTQ is acceptable before GOd since that is against the WOF SOF and WOF in general. Moreover, as I am a part of the Faith movement and grew up in it, what you say does not mean anything if it's against what the Faith Movement has noted. Preaching that grace means a license to sin and not repent is NOT what the Bible or the Word says and is never going to be accepted.

That said (and hopefully the last time for me noting it), you are off topic with regards to the Original post. Please be respectful and address the Original post rather than going off topic.

de1929 · Jan 14, 2016

Gxg (G²) said:
Brian Houston was never the standard of God's Spirit -

But i agree with Brian Houston 100%. He has influence. He became blessing to many. He is wof. Some ppl called it prosperity teacher.

1. are you as influential as Brian Houston ?
2. did you sell music CD under label G2 ?
3. your faith is orthodox.

brian houston is wof. you are orthodox. where is the common ground ?

Gxg (G²) · Jan 14, 2016

ABlessedMan said:
This is so true.

God said:

1 Cor 6:9-10 (NET)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The homosexual will not inherit the kingdom of God. It doesn't matter is teachers like Carlton want to teach inclusion, the scripture is quite clear.

This does not mean that the homosexual can't change and be saved. But once told the truth they have a choice to make. Because...

1 Jn 3:8 (NET)
The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil.

If one practices a sin, such as homosexuality, and after hearing the truth continues to practice it, they have given themselves over to the devil. They are of the devil according to scripture.

I've read this in the Logos and it told me what God has to say on the matter. I prayed about it and the Holy Spirit gave me Rhema about it, understanding that the homosexual having heard the Word and continuing in their sin is of the devil.

Precisely - and this is exactly what Joseph Prince has said on the matter when it comes to him saying that anyone teaching grace gives freedom to sin neither knows Christ nor honors what Christ died for in order for us to have grace.

As the Word says:

1 Jn 3:8 (NET)
The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil.

Anyone preaching against that does not preach in accordance with Christ

Sophrosyne · Jan 14, 2016

Last I heard of Carlton is that he teaches some at a Church on south Peoria here in Tulsa. I really haven't kept up with him much but the rumor I hear that sent him "over the edge" was that his father died and was "unsaved" and this upset him so much to think that his father was in hell that he essentially changed his thinking to reject the idea. I don't really know if it was the case or not. I've heard that he was known to be a good biblical scholar but I often wonder at times that being good at studying the Bible but not having the Holy Spirit operating in your life leaves you succeptable to seeing what you desire in the Bible (or not) instead of what is truly there. I'm not WOF specifically but I do agree somewhat on some things that they do and my former late pastor of my church was a graduate of ORU I think he later got his doctorate in theology from there also.

I think the problem with universalism and inclusionism and essentially overly liberal Christianity is sooner or later some people end up changing things to suit themselves so much that it is hard to see if they are Christians any more. I don't consider Carlton a Christian at this time, is/was he saved? Only God truly knows.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 14, 2016

de1929 said:
But i agree with Brian Houston 100%. He has influence. He became blessing to many. He is wof. Some ppl called it prosperity teacher.

1. are you as influential as Brian Houston ?
2. did you sell music CD under label G2 ?
3. your faith is orthodox.

brian houston is wof. you are orthodox. where is the common ground ?

Agreeing with Brian does not mean you agree with Jesus. Period. That is something Joseph Prince has already said when it comes to resisting any teaching claiming that believers do not need to repent of their sins or can remain in sexual sin and still be saved. That is NOT WHAT WOF has ever stated, thus showing you are not WOF in the stance you take. It is Gay Christian theology what Brian teaches and WOF has soundly condemned it - and it doesn't matter how influential someone is since plenty of famous preachers will be in Hell for preaching a False Gospel. This is what Christ warned on in Matthew 7 plainly when Jesus preached:

Matthew 7:15-21
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Build on the Rock
24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

And again, on the issue I have already spoken on what others have said in regards to Brian and Gay Christian theology (As seen here in http://www.christianforums.com/thre...lusion-doctrine-in-wof.7926986/#post-69116899 )

Brian Houston was never the standard of God's Spirit - and by your logic, God was wrong to condemn Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19. But of course, Jesus already noted plainly where God was right for doing so.

As another noted best (for brief reference):

Houston writes:

"I wish to correct reports that Hillsong church has 'an openly gay couple directing a choir' at our New York City campus. Hillsong's position on homosexuality and gay marriage has not changed and is consistent with Scripture. As I have stated previously, I believe the writings of Paul are clear on this subject. Several months ago when one of our choir directors made an unexpected public statement regarding his engagement to a man who sometimes sang in the choir, it was a complete surprise to us as well. It is my understanding that they have not been involved in an active leadership or ministry role since. That said, we still love them and acknowledge that they – like all of us – are on a journey, and our role as a church is to assist them on this journey with grace and compassion."

The statement links to a blog post written by Houston also published Tuesday, in which the megachurch pastor explains that gays are welcome to attend, worship and "participate as a congregation member" at Hillsong churches. However, Houston adds that gay worshippers cannot "take an active leadership role."

Houston states in this blog post, which is included in full at the end of this article:

"I also live by my own convictions, and hold to traditional Christian thought on gay lifestyles and gay marriage. I do believe God's word is clear that marriage is between a man and a woman. The writings of the apostle Paul in scripture on the subject of homosexuality are also clear, as I have mentioned in previous public statements.

"Hillsong Church welcomes ALL people but does not affirm all lifestyles. Put clearly, we do not affirm a gay lifestyle and because of this we do not knowingly have actively gay people in positions of leadership, either paid or unpaid. I recognise this one statement alone is upsetting to people on both sides of this discussion, which points to the complexity of the issue for churches all over the world."

Although he does not specifically note the apparently incorrect "reports," Houston's statement was most likely prompted by a blog post written by Geoffrey Grider, described on his SermonAudio.com profile as "a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ" who also "runs a successful web design company." Grider, also identified as a street preacher, published his now viral blog post on Hillsong NYC's openly gay and engaged members, Josh Canfield and Reed Kelly, on Sunday, Aug. 2.

In his post, shared more than 55,000 times via Facebook, Grider writes:

"Josh Canfield and Reed Kelly are a proudly-out homosexual couple who preach the gospel of the LGBT Agenda. They became 'engaged' last year and are planning a 'wedding' for sometime in 2016. They feel no conviction of any kind for the lifestyle they lead, and yet, shockingly, they are allowed to lead the worship choir during church services at Hillsong in New York City."

(PHOTO: GOOGLE PLUS)
Geoffrey Grider, a Christian minister, published a viral blog post on Hillsong NYC's openly gay and engaged members, Josh Canfield and Reed Kelly, on Sunday, August 2.

The sources that Grider points to to support his claims include a Jan. 29 Playbill article on Canfield that includes comments of his that were originally published in a December interview. In that interview, Canfield speaks about coming out of the closet at Hillsong NYC, and states that he is "one of their choir directors" and also sings on the worship team.

"I became truthful with my church. I'm a part of Hillsong NYC. I'm one of their choir directors. I also sing on their Worship team. They've been amazing as well," Canfield said. "Nothing has changed there now that I'm completely out and with Reed. He sings in the choir as well. I found that being an honest person has actually come with a lot of benefits. People are more sincere with you, and you find out a lot more about other people when you become honest."

The New York Times noted two months prior, in an October 2014 article suggesting that Houston had "shifted" on gay marriage, that "some of Hillsong's churches appear to be open to gays and lesbians." The article stated that Canfield and Kelly "worship and sing in the choir at Hillsong New York" and that "Canfield is a volunteer choir director at the church."

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/h...y-has-not-changed-142255/#Em9E6qITxP20AtCB.99

And for more reference:

Gay Couple at Center of Hillsong Controversy Say They've Been 'Open and Forthright' About Relationship 'From the Get-Go'
Josh Canfield and Reed Kelly Issue Statement After Pastor Brian Houston Clarifies Megachurch's LGBT Stance

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/g...p-from-the-get-go-142563/#EE1ujxMkGFU7Mb2x.99

Letting gays be members and openly in their lifestyle while also saying you don't agree with them being in leadership is still promoting same-sex relationships since St. Paul noted that others shoud not even be a member according to I Corinthians 5 when it came to the man sleeping with his mother in-law and needing to be PUT out of the congregation.

As a reminder of what WOF have stood for, The WOF SOF states plainly the following:

Davidnic said:
Homosexuality and Same Sex Marriage:
Homosexuality and same sex marriage may be discussed in this forum, however, no promotion of these topics is allowed. Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.

House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

That is the stance of the forum. As said before, it is is something other WOF members have long noted when it comes to the issue of same sex attraction being a problem. That is not WOF and something others have said repeatedly is a matter of bad representation when the teachers have said directly opposite.

As said in the forum:

hhodgson said:

Yes, a (true) born-again Christian can "back away" from God through sin and unbelief but God won't "back away" from you. ..."I will NEVER leave you or forsake you" Hebrews 13:5. God will always be there, no matter what! If WE walk away from God from the cares of the world would diminish what He has done for us. The "good news" of GRACE is once we recognize what we are doing, we can reverse the process by (looking back to the cross) and repent and stay in the fullness of God.

Click to expand...

hhodgson said:
As I said earlier... I don't believe that these "workers" of iniquities are true Christians at all. That shows a (lifestyle) of the wrong fruit. I am just responding to your choice of words... "workers of iniquity" which clearly shows in the Bible that the Lord never knew them.

hhodgson said:
Psalm 6:8
"Depart from me, all you workers of iniquity; for the LORD has heard the voice of my weeping."
Matthew7:23
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
Other translations of iniquity: evildoers, workers of lawlessness, practices lawlessness, you lawbreakers, practices evil, workers of evil, evil people, doers of wickedness.

Again, true Christians will not live a sinful lifestyle. (Keyword... "True" and "live")

If they are open about their fleshly lifestyles then where is the changed life? The struggling Christian will repent.

Why would there be an odd reason to listen to Prince and Osteen? As far as I know, neither one teaches this, especially Prince since I listen to him alot. One of the best books written (imo) in recent years is Destined To Reign by Joseph Prince. Thanks for reminding me. I'm just about ready to read it again. I think it's the fourth time. As for Joel Osteen, I admit I don't listen to him often, but... a little while back I went through something and went to my "favorites" to get God's encouragement and the ONLY one I felt that God led me to was... Joel Osteen. Thank God I listened to that still small voice. Osteen's encouragement to me was not short of amazing.

Be Blessed to be a BLESSING... View attachment 161411

View attachment 161412

This has also been said by other WOF in places such as How would you minister to survivors of childhood sexual molestation...

And as said in another place plainly years ago:

ABlessedMan said:
Coming late to this party....I agree with this. I'll go back and see what started it all, but...

3 For even though I am absent physically, I am present in spirit. And I have already judged the one who did this, just as though I were present. 4 When you gather together in the name of our Lord Jesus, and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 turn this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. 6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast affects the whole batch of dough? 7 Clean out the old yeast so that you may be a new batch of dough - you are, in fact, without yeast. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 So then, let us celebrate the festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of vice and evil, but with the bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
1 Cor 5:3-8 (NET)
Paul was talking here about a man who had sex with his mother. Forbidden in scripture, just as homosexuality is forbidden. Unrepentant sin will corrupt that which is holy. And Paul, indeed God through Paul, left no room for this defilement to enter in.

So, a homosexual (or fornicators or idolaters or ...) who do not yet know that their actions are wrong, have not yet been taught that they live in sin, can be allowed in for the purpose of instructing them in righteousness. But once they understand that they are practicing sin (1 John 3) and they continue in it, then they identify themselves as children of the devil and not prodigal children.

Farm Truck said:

That's false teaching. True shepherds would not allow wolves in to try and teach them to not be wolves because the end result shall be sheep being hurt. This is a very basic concept that even a baby Christian should understand. I'm referring to those that think being gay is OK and they have no plans to repent because they see nothing wrong with it - they should be put out of the church.

ABlessedMan said:

Hi Farm Truck,

Nice post. Stay with me here, as I'll stay with you through this discussion. Remember, we are talking, discussing, not fighting (as your last sentiments seem to say). There are many places in this post where you make my argument for me so that you can knock it down. That's called a straw man. Better if you simply make your point and respond to my points instead of making my argument for me.

You are likely right that I won't convince you and you won't convince me, but we will plant seeds, and the good seeds of the Word will grow. We both love the Lord and desire His will, so the ground is fertile and good.

Let's have a good discussion (passion is ok!) and not let that slip away.

------

One other point I'd like to make is that while I believe God's Grace is wonderful, and I am OSAS, but there is a difference between a teacher of Grace and a teacher of "extreme Grace." You are correct that the extreme grace person seems to think that they have a license to sin. We know this isn't the case for Paul told us so in Romans 6. So please, don't count me in that crowd.

So, are you up for discussion?

Not quite sure why OSAS's truthfulness stands or falls on God's image. As far as sowing and reaping is concerned it is correct.

7 Do not be deceived. God will not be made a fool. For a person will reap what he sows, 8 because the person who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
Gal 6:7-8 (NET)
If we sow to the flesh we reap ... what? "Corruption from the flesh." Sickness. Disease. Galatians 6 is not speaking of salvation, but our walk, our deeds, carrying our load. This is speaking of physical matters.

Yes, Jesus is the High priest. But unlike the OT priests He doesn't make atonement for our sins daily (or yearly).

11 And every priest stands day after day serving and offering the same sacrifices again and again - sacrifices that can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 where he is now waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet . 14 For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy.
Heb 10:11-14 (NET)
The OT priests stood day after day. Jesus took away our sins with ONE sacrifice for all time. Perhaps, maybe, this was one sacrifice but we repent over and over for our sins. But that's not what verse 14 says: one offering has perfected all whom are made holy for all time.

So who are the ones being made holy? Well, we missed that by one verse above. Let's back up one to see:

By his will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:10 (NET)
We are made holy. How? Through the offering of Jesus Christ. How long does it last? For all time (v14).

You mention verse 26 in your quotes. Let's take a look.

26 For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us, 27 but only a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume God's enemies .
Heb 10:26-27 (NET)
What does this say? "Deliberate, repeated sin." Understand one thing as we look at this phrase, that "receiving the knowledge of the truth" is NOT salvation -- it is simply hearing the Gospel message. Look at Matthew 13:18-23. The Word is sown AND it is heard, received. The seed on rocky ground was even "received with joy!". But it had no root. There is no salvation resulting from it. People receive the knowledge all the time and do nothing with it.

So, these people commit "deliberate, repeated sin." They practice sin. They do not desire to stop. Well, the Word tells us about such people:

7 Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous. 8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil.
1 Jn 3:7-8 (NET)
Practice righteousness, you are of God. Practice sin, you are of the devil.

hhodgson said:

According to what Bob posted (ABlessedMan), that (truth) may have already came out about T.D. Jakes. We'll wait and see how Brian Houston at Hillsong Church deals with it. And for those who don't know. Brian Houston pastors the Hillsong Church in Sydney, Australia. Some years ago I was in Sydney, Australia and if his ministry was there at the time, It would have been nice to go check it out.

Let's not (pre-judge) and give up on them FT, or any other ministry that may need to proclaim what to say behind their pulpits concerning this very powerful, and highly influential end-time deception movement of the "Gay Revolution" that's (already) accepted in every facet of leadership in our country, including the executive, legislative, judicial, and even the military branches of our goverment. They are everywhere from the top down in our society and God forbid... yes, even in our churches. Satan would love to see our nation as the (gay capital country) of the world. Hmmm... Just remembered. (Sodom and Gomorrah?) Remember this... View attachment 162033

We'll have to keep our discerning spiritual eyes open to this "Gay Revolution" (LGBT), that I believe (may) be the "leading deception" of "hypocrisy" of the coming end-time last days that would lead millions to the "great falling away" before Jesus returns.

Does the Lord have something in (His plan) to counter this "abounding" SIN..? (hint)

While this ungodly Gay Revolution abomination is running wild, there is a returning godly movement re-gaining momentum as well, that some call... The Grace Revolution that initially began... after the Ressurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (from the dead) who offered Himself as the sin sacrifice for the whole world. I use the word "re-gaining" because over the years God's GRACE has been so diluted, polluted and watered down by mixing with law (our efforts) that had little to no affect. We can thank God that He raised up saints such as Joseph Prince and others to re-teach the whole counsel of God as the full Good News message of the Gospel. "The just shall live by faith" (and) "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." Hebrews 10:38a, Hebrews 11:6a. The Lord said that if we draw back (from faith) that He shall have no pleasure in us.

The writer of Hebrews says it very clearly. "but if any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him." Hebrews 10:38b. Hebrews 4:2 "For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

The critics call this full GRACE teaching (you've heard them all)... hyper-grace, extreme grace, exaggerated grace, cheap grace, greasy grace, modern grace, false grace, tickle grace, licentious grace, etc. It just amazes me that some are teaching or (suggesting) that... the end-time "great falling away" will be caused by none other than this modern day "Grace Revolution" View attachment 162028... when actually, it's teaching the whole counsel of God.

The critics of the (modern grace message) are quick to quote these (below) scriptures describing this false message (as they say)... as the end-time apostasy.

2 Peter 2:1-3 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality (sexual immorality?), and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their "judgment" from (long ago) is not idle, and their "destruction" is not asleep. (Could this bold part be describing the judgment and distruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?)

Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, (turning the grace) of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."
Notice the bold parts? So I think maybe a question that we should ask ourself and the critics is... "how..? and where..?" is the modern grace gospel (denying) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ?? Even Dr. Brown admits that they are God loving saints without a doubt. (Dr. Michael Brown wrote the popular book... Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Message)

Dr. Michael Brown..."Some people gravitate to the hyer-grace message because they have sensitive consciences or because they have been burned by legalism or they feel as if they always fall short or they were not raised by a loving and affirming father. They really do love the Lord and they are not looking for and excuse to sin, and finally, hearing this message, they have found a place of rest and acceptance in the Lord, and they are actually working harder for Him than ever."
Are there any abusers of this modern full GRACE message? Absolutely! No different than any other doctrine or movement. Name just one doctrine that don't have something that someone else would consider heretical? If time permits, along with interest, we'll deal with some of the abuses, the misunderstandings, and misrepresentations of some that are calling this a "distorted and dangerous" message that could lead millions to hell. Dr. Michael Brown said something similar in his book.

Let's compare the Gay Revolution and the Grace Revolution. How did Jesus say we would know them? Matthew 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.… Galatians 5:22-23

If we were to examine the fruit of these grace teachers. What would we find? Listed below are some of the major proponents of the modern grace gospel message for those reading this may be familiar with some of them...

I could list many, many more teachers of the Grace Revolution, some known, some well known such as Joseph Prince, Clark Whitten, Steve McVey, Paul Ellis (Escape to Reality), Andrew Farley, Rob an Ryan Rufus, John Chowder, John Sheasby, Simon Yap, Andrew Wommack, Watchman Nee, Dudly Hall, Judah Smith, also (our own) Benjamin Conway (King Zzub). Has anyone listened to Creflo Dollar lately?
So which is it (that is more in line) to cause millions to fall away from the end-time deception? The Gay Revolution or the Grace Revolution? Also consider this... (This is big!) Let's not forget the video I brought up earlier about the New Message and the New GOD. This group is really growing and has much of Holywood's elite. If the Body of Christ really speaks out about the "Gay Revolution" even in our mega-churches and they do get rooted out. "Where will they go?" The New Message of the New God movement will have open arms for them. This group along with other new age theologies will be a part of the end-time deception coupled with the Gay Revolution.

Back to my question above... What (could) be the Lord's plan to counter this "Gay Revolution" hypocrisy? "When sin abounded, grace did much more abound" (Romans 5:20).

The current "status quo" isn't working too well Farm Truck. I believe Romans 5:20 is one major end-time scripture message the Lord wants us to embrace for the times just ahead of us. And, I believe this full grace message of the gospel is awakening the Body of Christ in preparation for the end-time harvest of souls.

View attachment 162032

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ABlessedMan said:
Now as for anyone who has ties to a homosexual, this does not immediately "open a door" for demonic activity. We deal with people who have sin in their lives on a daily basis. If such interaction opened us to spirits entering us, then mankind would be infested with demons and Christianity would cease to exist. Homosexuality is a sin. It is no different from any other sin. Sin cannot be in the presence of God; God abhors sin. And Jesus' blood will wash sin away from us and we are to stop practicing our sins. It is this practicing that defines whether we are God's or whether we are the devil's (see 1 John 3).

So when we interact with someone who practices sin, our first reaction should be to teach them the error of their ways. When they reject this teaching we need to have patience, for this is how sinners will react to being told that they need to run from their sin. We need to have patience and continue to witness to them with longsuffering (the same way that God dealt with each and every one of us!). There will come a time to wipe the dust from our feet, but that time comes after much, much, much, much witness to the sinner.

So as for the leader who has a gay son living with him: does the leader witness the Word regarding the sin of homosexuality to the son? Or has the leader taken a position that it is ok that his son is gay? For this latter is not ok. And if the church follows the Word, and if this latter case is true -- if the leader says it is ok -- then the church leadership needs to remove this person from leadership. If the leader does not accept his son's homosexual desires, and if he is in continual witness to help his son overcome this sin, then it is not an immediate problem for him to have the son living at home. And it certainly will not be a portal for evil spirits to enter in.

That cannot be ignored...

3. your faith is orthodox.

brian houston is wof. you are orthodox. where is the common ground ?

As said before, it is disrespectful focusing on others rather than addressing the topic of a thread - and thus far, you are off topic. It has already been established by mods/staff and members where I've been a long-term member since I am a part of the Faith movement and was a member long before you ever arrived or chose to become WOF a month ago.

And this is no secret, as noted here:

Gxg (G²) said:
You have all known me for sometime (ABlessedMan since 2006 now - time flies ) - and although I am not specifically involved in the Faith Movement solely since I am in a differing camp now (i.e. Orthodoxy, Messianic, etc.) more so, you all know I have not cut ties with others in the Faith Movement/working with others in it (as many Orthodox have done with Protestants) and have never forgotten many of the beautiful things still uphold/value with it. You guys have also seen for sometime the many ways in which movements indeed overlap with each other (i.e. Messianics who are also desiring connection with the Faith Movement, as some on the WOF boards did before, Charismatics who are Catholic, etc.). With the videos I posted recently on confession and the WORD OF GOd coming first by Creflo, Fredrick Price, Capps and Hagin, you know my intention was bring focus back to what has been said when there was a bit of confusion on the boards with things seeming to be counter to that - and although not WOF, my understanding has been for years that WOF Advocates/those growing up in the movement can still interact since it is in fellowship and agreement. Do you guys still agree? I am processing and wishing to have recent verification since I have sought to honor the forum and wanted to ensure that was happening - and if I am off on my understanding, I wanted to know how I could improve

Experiencing it recently where someone went to my profile/noted part of what I said when I disagreed with them openly about Word of Faith (when it came to God's Word/Revelation), I was a bit perplexed as to what was going on.

And I always seek to be respobsible when it comes to the forums, which is why I was wanting to have your own thoughts on the issue of fellowship, my being aligned with the Faith movement and discussing in fellowship for years based on where I come from.

For anyone reading my profile, My entire profile says the following:

On personal stances, I stand predominately with the Oriential Orthodox Tradition (OO Christology - Syriac Orthodox) & Messianic Jewish culture. An "OO Messianic" can be another term for it. But I'm also glad for other camps OUTSIDE of that/benefit greatly from them (many of which I grew up with/was influenced by). In that sense, I'm convergent. In my view, there is a meeting of the 4 Streams of the Church: Liturgical (Sacramental & liturgical generally found in Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Anglican churches), Evangelical ( A strong Bible centered view of the world ), Spirit-filled (Charismatic or Pentecostal belief & practice that the gifts of the Spirit are in operation/use today), and Hebraic ( Biblical & Jewish perspective and practice that sees that Yeshua/Jesus was an observant Jew and kept the Biblical festivals, Shabbat and some traditions of the Elders/Rabbis ). Each stream is a historic style that was a part of the Early Church, now flowing together again in these present days.
Convergent.

....I have said that for years (even when on CARM and addressing critics of the WOF/Faith movement and how the teachers themselves in the Faith Movement are essentially mystics having a less developed ideology that echos what was said in the Early Church by other mystics/theologians - even though the language is not precise). I have tried to be consistent when sharing how Orthodoxy, as said before, also has included many aspects of th Charismatic world.

This was said even last year within Traditional Theology forum when other Ambassadors were discussing the matter, as said there:

Darth Bagel said:

For my friends here who are members of Traditional churches (of any kind) can you point out any significant differences and similarities between the two forms of Charismatic Christianity (Evangelical vs. [Your Tradition)?

I suppose to establish a benchmark, when I think of Evangelical Charismatics I think of infamous groups like Bethel Church (home of Jesus Culture), The International House of Prayer, Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship, the Lakeland Revivals and leaders/teachers like Joyce Meyer, Bill Johnson, Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Mike Bickle, Lou Engle, Scott Lively, etc. All of whom I think, frankly, absolutely ruin the Christian faith.

GoingByzantine said:

It is easy to forget that Charismaticism predates the so called "Charismatic movement", there have been elements of it in traditional liturgies in the past. I understand Charismatic elements are quite common in the Tewahedo churches, in fact upon review of an Eritrean Eastern Catholic Liturgy...you can even see it first hand.

Look what happens at 36:30 in this video:

Gxg (G²) said:

So true - and many thanks for pointing out what you did in review. Ethiopian Orthodoxy is very Charismatic in many respects, although they are also ordered.

Many seem fearful of anything that is Charismatic - although I don't see that as necessary. I've seen others claim before that Pentecostalism is somehow "anti-intellectual" - but for me, growing up within the movement and seeing many scholars/teachers (from Sam Storms to Amos Young in his works to Jon Mark Ruthven, PhD to Dr. Michael Brown and so many others.....including the Methodist Church since much of its roots were with the Charismatic and Pentecostal movement as far back as John Wesley and has been a part of its spread). There is, as I've seen, an anti-intellectualism that is more so focused on mysticism when it comes to not believing one can adequately explain ALL aspects of the Mysterious Divine Godhead and that God does not always do things in formula.....and of course, in other places, I've seen others who didn't care for study and academic rigor. But that is not found in all places, of course and this has been present for some time.

Many of them have done what they did in regards to the wider memory of the Church - which, from what I've studied, was very much close (at specific times) to what one would see in Pentecostalism. For many, what often occurs is that dialogues begin on seeing the wider history of the Church...and understanding on the shapings of history. Spencer Estabrooks (MA, MDiv, is Director of St. Arseny Orthodox Christian Theological Institute) shared some very solid thoughts on the issue in A Continuing Pentecost: The Experience of the Holy Spirit in Orthodox Christianity (With a View to Dialogue Between Orthodox Christians and Pentecostals).

For even within the history of the Church, the Fathers had authority over nature. The Fathers raised the dead. They cured the ill. They ascended into the Heavenly Realm and conversed with angels. They went to speak to those who spoke another tongue and found that, without having learned that tongue, they could preach to the people (and this evangelical gift, which allowed the Apostles to spread the message of Christianity, was present in the Early Church). St. Paul even warns those who have it not to cause confusion, but, in order to be consistent with the purpose of the giftthat of witnessing to the Faith, to use the gift only if interpretation is available. On top of that, there's Miracles, holy relics, healings, missions, icons that stream holy and miraculous oil.

And for other Orthodox leaders, the ones I am automatically reminded of are people such as Fr. Eusebius A. Stephanou with the Brotherhood of St. Symeon the New Theologian of the Orthodox Renewal Center. As another noted best in review:

Fr. Eusebius Stephanou another Greek Orthodox priest, believed the Charismatic movement was from God. Instead of being rejected, Fr. Eusebius and his work of promoting renewal in Orthodoxy was supported financially and verbally by GOARCH bishops. To his death, Fr. Eusebius was a praised and recognized priest, and former teacher at Holy Cross Seminary. Never was he disciplined or reprimanded or corrected. In fact Eusebius's bishop gave money towards his renewal work in the Greek Orthodox Church. Many saw and do see him as a man like St. Seraphim of Sarov pointing dry bones people to the Holy Spirit. While the legacy of St. Hermans for many years was of schism, Fr. Eusebius faithfully served in communion all his days.

Fr. Eusebius was one of many Orthodox priests who participated. Fr. James Tavralides, Fr. Constantine Monios and Fr. David Buss, Fr. Athanasius Emmert of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese, and Fr. Boris Zabrodsky of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in America, founder of the Service Committee for Orthodox Spiritual Renewal all rejoiced in God's work in the Charismatic renewal. These Holy men disagreed radically with Fr. Seraphim's assessment.
Pentecostals were descended from the Nazarenes who were descended from the Methodists who were encouraged by John Wesley to read the Eastern Church Fathers. As a result, to some extent charismatics partially reflected Orthodox views about the active work of the Holy Spirit. And this is something many keep in mind...

Orthodoxy, Anglicanism and Pentecostalism | Khanya

Hesychasm and Pentecostalism | OrthoCuban

Pentecost, Orthodox, and Pentecostals 2012 | OrthoCuban

The Raven: A Greek Orthodox charismatic?

Christian Unity An Orthodox View

https://khanya.wordpress.com/charismatic-renewal/

Charismatic renewal in the Orthodox church » Ravens

St. Symeon the New Theologian : Cup & Cross Ministries

Gene Mills : The Baptism of Tears: The Two Baptisms of St. Symeon the New Theologian - Quodlibet Journal

OCL Archives

Pentecostal Spirituality: A Passion for the Kingdom - Steven Jack Land - Google Books

What I've also seen is that much of what is present within Pentecostalism globally is similar to Roots Theology - or those who are not always within the world of academia nor seeking to do things as they have always been done when it comes to reaching the unique needs of oppressed groups without access to many things.. Lively pentecostal worship In an Asian context fits the religious expectation of Asians, who see deities as immediately interacting with their worshippers. God is to interact with his worshippers, listening to their prayers, responding to their worship and providing for their needs, which is quite different from the version of Christianity Which western missionaries once propagated, except for Pentecostalism (more here, here and here)

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But again, I said very clearly I was convergent since that was best way I could sum up my history. I did not stop at Oriental or Messianic (as it concerns Orthdox and Messianic Faith groups). I stated am predominately with Oriental Orthodoxy (and as I've told Mark before, I go to an EO fellowship which also communes with Syriac Orthodoxy/Messianic - as Antiochian Orthodox have inter-communion with both EO and OO ) does not mean I am exclusive of the Charismatic/Faith Movement I grew up in. That is why I noted directly and plainly I believe in the Pentecostal/Charismatic (of which WOF is a branch of) - it is not something I have been quiet on for years since I got here to CF and I have shared that on several occasions.

I said I am a part of the Charismatic movement as well - I still work in that world and that was something older staff were well aware of. And to be clear, you can only write so much in a Profile. But I was very clear on the dynamic of being connected with the Charismatic World - specifically the Faith Movement. The WOF movement has always been a part of the Charismatic world - and as other WOF have said:

ABlessedMan said:

Both Word/Faith and AoG are on the charismatic side of Christian belief. And we do indeed have much in common. I spent many years in an AoG church and I loved (and still love) that church and its pastor (Tommy Barnett of Phoenix First Assembly of God). Much, much in common; subtle differences that can mean a lot.

ABlessedMan said:

from Wiki page for Andrew Wommack
Andrew Wommack is an American conservative Evangelical Christian TV evangelist, a Charismatic Word of Faith teacher and faith healer, as well as the founder of Andrew Wommack Ministries in 1978 and Charis Bible College (originally Colorado Bible College) in 1994.

ABlessedMan said:

First, what is QFTD??

Second, awesome set of posts both Gxg and dkbwarrior!!

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When I made my profile and explained, I was told by older staff who stepped down to try and fit as much into my profile as possible so as to be clear - and to not worry since staff (at least those I talked with before) knew where I was coming from when I wrote things out. That is what older staff noted when it came to my interactions with others in the WOF world that I originally came from....and yet being involved in Orthodoxy.

This is not something I take lightly when it comes to being clear with others so as to avoid confusion and demonstrate I respect/seek to honor rules.

One of my first postings (for verification) spoke on that issue when I was with WOF (but connected with Orthodox camps) and speaking of theosis - as I noted here in
Is there a GENUINE argument against WoF? (WOF ONLY) (from Jul 26, 2009 in forum: Word of Faith ) - and verified by several posters, one of them being dkbwarrior on Jul 26, 2009 when he noted agreement. The same can be verified on when I was speaking on the Orthodox concept of theosis (while identifying as WOF at that time even while I was investigating Orthodoxy) - as seen in Aug 18, 2009 in the Post Does WOF teach henotheism???

And again, the members have already noted multiple times where I was more than connected/affirming of the Faith Movement since several parts of the movement are ECUMENICAL and well connected with those in Apostolic circles ( as noted in Jul 26, 2009#30 ). I have said the same thing before (as an example with others like Benny Hinn - who worked actively with Roman Catholic nuns he was taught by) and I went to Catholic/Apostolic schools growing up and I have shared that before on several occassions (as seen n the Traditional Forums here in http://www.christianforums.com/threads/whats-the-difference.7864816/#post-67021524 and Tell Me A Little Bit About The Charismatic Catholics ).

Before I came to CF, I was over at CARM on the WOF Forum (as ABlessedMan can verify) and interacting extensively with the WOF members there who have since come to CF. victoryword is a prominent member and has noted this before - and we've talked on this before. As far back as 2013, as said here:

victoryword said:

There was a LOT of stuff on there. Most of it were articles refuting Hanegraaff, Chuck Smith, some lesser known anti-wof sites, and refuting the lies told on Kenyon. However, you can e-mail me at victoriousword@gmail.com and I can send you some of the articles.

You can also visit our church's web page where I have placed the free books and many of the Bible studies and sermon outlines that we used to have on the site:

Victorious Word Christian Fellowship, Pawtucket, Rhode Island

The site was a mixture of a lot of things back then but the new site will be committed primarily to standing against heresy hunting.

P.S. You can also get my book, "Miracles are for TOday" which refutes cessationist propaganda if your interested in dealing with cessationists. Just check out the bookstore on the cite.

hhodgson said:

Here is what I have found and saved on the Way Back Machine that may be helpful on some of Troy's teaching... Hope it comes through until he gets his new site up.

Troy, I hope you don't mind me putting this up...

Victory Through The Word Ministries

Greater works...
_____________
Harry

victoryword said:

Thanks for all of the responses guys. Seems overwhelmingly 100% FOR a WoF apologetics web page. And Harry, I have no problems with you posting the link to the old page as long as no one gets a virus from it

Well, we will begin working on a new wof apologetics site in due time.

Gxg (G²) said:

Told all the Anti-WOF folks back on other sites (like CARM) that they didn't really have anything substantial when claiming they had defeated you or that their "confession" won - and whenever they did so, I tended to laugh since people got ahold of the resources in the time they were available and knew in their spirts it'd be back

Gxg (G²) said:

I kind of left and have been gone for a good minute now. I drop in occassionally as does BM (Blessed Man) and others - and when some newcomcers seek questions and some of the Anti-WOF gang try some of the old tricks, we all collectively help each other to keep it real/show the beautiful side of WOF that no one wants to discuss - and expose the ugliness often hidden by many who condemn all aspects of it (more here, here , here and here).

As there's more activity here, I've often pointed others with questions to come to this forum more so since there's stable community - as opposed to feeling like you're living in a run-down neighborhood where mob violence rules. Still can be a bit of a battle when others try some of the same cowardly actions/falsehoods and think no one will catch them - as they've generally retreated to their home forums outside of that place and come for drive-by comments ...due to the fact that many made clear they weren't gonna remain in conversation with others who didn't know how to talk properly/respectfully). Sadly, others - in your abscence - still said a lot of false things about you (seen here, here , here, hereand here ) - and I thought of addressing it at the time, but didn't feel I had the time to go back/put up all of your actual words/statements. Nonetheless, although some still try foolishness, it gets called just as much as it does heree...and when there've been attempts to blast others here, I try to put it in check/set the record straight by noting to people what actually was said - and ABM has done an awesome job trying to set things straight as well.

Keep up doing what you do, Bruh - as it has always been a blessing

Gxg (G²) said:

Was letting you know that it seems some of the folks over at CARM have been a bit agitated at what was said here.

In example, although I mentioned some things here directly which I have said elsewhere, this is what was said recently:

I was honestly a bit surprised to see it even occur - and ABM and I talked on it via Facebook. But on the issue, I chose not to address it simply because it was rather obvious it was an attempt to bait others into discussion...and discussion on things which were never accurate in the portrayal. I just find it odd that others claim things that have nothing to do with reality - saying that the reason others are allowed on a place is because they claim to be "WOF" when the reality is that there've been A LOT of non-WOF people here with good relationships with the WOF folks.

And it seems like there is a bit of divorce from the fact that they can’t hold their tongue against WoF or resist carictures of it - and thus, they interpret that as only allowing "WOF". It's an issue of bad thinking..but it occurs. And as it concerns other things from the past, I'm still surprised that certain things are not understood properly in what actually occurred. But as it was already explained, there's no point rehashing anything.

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And as victoryword noted (as we both grew up in the Faith movement connected with other camps/studying up - him knowing on me in Orthodoxy

victoryword said:

G2

Thanks for not allowing lies to go on about me and others over at CARM. When we started the church I was spending much of my time doing outreach and evangelism and just did not feel I had time anymore for engaging the CARMIES. I decided to leave the Word-Faith apologetics alone and just concentrate on making disciples and teaching them God's Word.

Most Christians, especially baby Christians, don't even know what a "Word-Faith MOvement" is. Nor do they know what is an Arminian, a Calvinist, etc. so for the last couple of years I concentrated on just pastoring and evangelizing.

It is only recently that the Lord has awakened me to the fact that He wanted me to also begin concentrating on defending the principles of faith again, not for the sake of the critic, but for the sake of the seekers and those WoFers who are sometimes assaulted by the critics and don't know how to respond.

However, I commend you and ABM for taking those guys on.

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I have eagerly hoped for years that it is the case that it would be clear that I have never denied the Faith Movement that I grew up with or that when I explored other camps, it would not be assumed I had turned my back on the beauty of what I grew up in. Again, on my profile, I noted that I was not connected to it ONLY since I am involved prominently in Orthodoxy - but that is not a matter of me denying that I still honor/value the Faith Movement and that is not something that has ever been hidden. There are mutiple threads I have had with my friends/family there where I have asked questions while also sharing on the things I have since learned with being involved in camps OUTSIDE of the Faith Movement, as I was also going to a Evangelical/Charismatic Church working as a Youth Worker while being involved in Orthodoxy at my Messianic/Orthodox fellowship. This was shared openly earlier last year as seen in
Founders: Family Tree within WOF and examining Who Founded WOF in all expressions?

As early as 2014 where this has been done, I again reference prominent members on the forum such as victoryword whenever we'd have discussions openly because we clearly knew where the others stood - as seen in one of the threads I made on exploring WOF History and the many examples of it (including those which have had convergence with other camps such as Orthodoxy and Orthodox working with Protestants):

victoryword said:

If one is going to look for post-biblical origins of Word-Faith teaching then it is best to start with the church fathers. Many of them taught mountain moving faith, miracles, and authority over the devil. As one author notes:

"Fearing the Lord," says Hermas, "you will have dominion over the Devil; for there is no power in him." This view of Hermas may be said to have been entertained by all the great minds of the Church in all subsequent periods.
So, if one is interested in origins, going to the CFs will prove helpful.

Gxg (G²) said:

Very, very true what it is that you noted - as this is something many in the WOF Movement (when I was growing up in it) noted as it concerns the reality of history alone and seeing what the Early Church emphasized - be it with miracles honoring Christ, the concept of God's authority for His saints or walking in faith and a hsot of many other things...as discussed before in the thread entitled Is there a GENUINE argument against WoF? (WOF ONLY) and Joseph Prince interpretation of 1 John 1:9 and even Sabbath rest, tithes and such (as it concerns the concepts of sowing/reaping and tithing - emphasized in the Faith Movement). On the Church Fathers, one can consider Irenaues as it concerns the Power of God...

On Book 2, Chapter 32, section 4

Those who are truly his disciples, receive grace from him,....perform works in his name, in order to promote the welfare of others, according to the gift that each one has received from Him. Some truly and certinally cast out devils. The result is that those who have been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe and join themselves to the church...still others heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and the sick are made whole. What is more, as I have said, even the dead have been raised up and remained among us for years. What more can I say? it is not possible to name the number of gifts which the church throughout the whole world has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ. irenaeus (c180, e/w) 1.409, Irenaues against heresies
More from Ireneaus in Book 4, Chapter 11:

For as God is always the same, so also man, when found in God, shall always go on towards God. For neither does God at any time cease to confer benefits upon, or to enrich man; nor does man ever cease from receiving the benefits, and being enriched by God. For the receptacle of His goodness, and the instrument of His glorification, is the man who is grateful to Him that made him; and again, the receptacle of His just judgment is the ungrateful man, who both despises his Maker and is not subject to His Word; who has promised that He will give very much to those always bringing forth fruit, and more [and more] to those who have the Lord's money. Well done, He says, good and faithful servant: because you have been faithful in little, I will appoint you over many things; enter into the joy of your Lord. Matthew 25:21, etc. The Lord Himself thus promises very much.

If, therefore, in the present time also, God, knowing the number of those who will not believe, since He foreknows all things, has given them over to unbelief, and turned away His face from men of this stamp, leaving them in the darkness which they have themselves chosen for themselves, what is there wonderful if He did also at that time give over to their unbelief, Pharaoh, who never would have believed, along with those who were with him? As the Word spoke to Moses from the bush: And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, unless by a mighty hand. Exodus 3:19 And for the reason that the Lord spoke in parables, and brought blindness upon Israel, that seeing they might not see, since He knew the [spirit of] unbelief in them, for the same reason did He harden Pharaoh's heart; in order that, while seeing that it was the finger of God which led forth the people, he might not believe, but be precipitated into a sea of unbelief, resting in the notion that the exit of these [Israelites] was accomplished by magical power, and that it was not by the operation of God that the Red Sea afforded a passage to the people, but that this occurred by merely natural causes

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, IV.29 (St. Irenaeus)
Something to keep in mind when it comes to realizing how things did not just die out within the early centuries of the Church.

And as it concerns authority, I am reminded of one story that comes to mind involving one of the Desert Fathers playing with snakes/dangerous beasts like they were pets (specifically, one of the Fathers who used to tell of a certain Abba Paul, from lower Egypt, who lived in the Thebaid and who used to take various kinds of snakes in his hands) - and yet when questioned on it, he said it was how the Lord designed it since animals respond to believers who know their authority and help animals to see their own authority (more shared here and here in In the Heart of the Desert: The Spirituality of the Desert Fathers ... - Page 85

As said in one book discussing the matter:

When it comes to relating to the animals, there is an abundance of information about the connection that the desert dwellers enjoyed with their co-inhabitants of the desert.

One of the Fathers used to tell of a certain Abba Paul, from lower Egypt, who lived in the Thebaid. He used to take various kinds of snakes in his hands… . The brothers made a prostration before him, asking: “Tell us what you have done to receive this grace.” He said: “Forgive me, Fathers, but if someone acquires purity, then everything is in submission to that person, just as it was for Adam when he was in paradise before the transgression of the commandment.”

Abba Antony also said: “Obedience with abstinence gives people authority even over wild beasts.”

Antony knew the truth of this statement. He had persuaded the animals in his region to live at peace with him and no longer to disturb him. In fact, the notion of being like Adam, before he fell from the graceful condition he enjoyed in paradise, is the ideal to which the desert elders aspired.
God gave mankind dominion over creation - and it's amazing when men choose to take that back....but again, they had a different understanding of what it meant to walk after the Lord than many do today...

In the circles that are Liturgical and emphasize the CFs a lot (as with the Orthodox or the Catholics), I am always amazed considering those in those circles who have never been unfamilar with the Charismatic emphasis present in that world - including acts of faith - as it was something that always perplexed me when others found it odd that Benny Hinn (who grew up Catholic) worked with Catholic nuns at his Healing meetings since I saw Catholics in action and they were aware of how much the Early Church Fathers (Church mothers as well, by the way ) knew the Power of God. Some of this has been discussed elsewhere, as seen here and here (when discussing the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement and differing aspects of it - including the Faith Movement - within the world of Ancient Christianity)

Seeing the work of God in circles understanding the CFs and valuing them when walking in great faith is not really odd when considering circumstances and background - .how the Prosperity Theology came in Malaysia during an economic boom in the 1980s/1990s and elsewhere like after the People Power Revolution in the Philippines that set the stage for it spreading because of government focus on advancing physical/material well-being and not wishing to promote "victim mentalities" above self-help after coming out of a dictatorship/not having freedom to advance.....and this can be seen easily in the El Shaddai movement in the Philippines (as El Shaddai's popularity among the Filipino urban poor and aspiring middle classes was stunning) - a movement which was a ROMAN Catholic Charismatic manifestation of the prosperity message - more discussed best in Global Pentecostalism in the 21st Century and Everyday Life in Southeast Asia or Blessed: A History of the American Prosperity Gospel .....

All of that is, of course, mentioned to bring home the point you made when it comes to remembering the CFs in their words/actions and seeing that they (living within a Liturgical context) were still as powerful today in miracle working as others were. St. Symeon the New Theologian always comes to mind among others - more shared in The Charismata in Church History

victoryword said:

Church Father Tatian (120-180) was not a fan of the medical practices of his time. He believed that sickness was caused by demons and that medicine was a satanic art form:

But medicine and everything included in it is an invention of the same kind. If any one is healed by matter, through trusting to it, much more will he be healed by having recourse to the power of God.
Tatian, Discourse to the Greeks, Chapter 18

Why is he who trusts in the system of matter not willing to trust in God? For what reason do you not approach the more powerful Lord, but rather seek to cure yourself, like the dog with grass, or the stag with a viper, or the hog with river-crabs, or the lion with apes? Why you deify the objects of nature? And why, when you cure your neighbour, are you called a benefactor? Yield to the power of the Logos! The demons do not cure, but by their art make men their captives.
Tatian, Discourse to the Greeks, Chapter 18
You can see that Tatian believed in divine healing by faith and taught to trust God rather than medicine. This would be controversial in our day, even among the WoF movement. However, most medicine back in those days was best on demonism. So it is great to see how strong healing by faith in God's power was back in the first and second century of the church.

Concerning what was shared earlier,

When it comes to patristics, one thing that should always be kept in mind is the fact that not every Church Father was ever held in the same regard. In example, Tatian was one who was Assyrian (i.e. not a part of the Orthodox Church or Byzantine system) and he was actually considered a herectic in his time - despite where his efforts helped the Church. This happens a lot when it comes to differences within the Church - and although Tatian was once a one-time protege of Justin of Martyr, he ended up having a fall-out later on when he started to go into areas which the Early Church found to be very questionable....and later became associated with the Assyrian Church of the East (which was not in agreement with Rome). Specifically, Tatian was reported to have become an Encratite (an ascetic 2nd century sect of Christians who forbade marriage and counselled abstinence from meat) - as Irenaeus makes mention of this Tatian in Against Heresies 1.28.1. Of course, with Tatian, he was very on point (IMHO) when it comes to the subject of free will - as he addressed pagans who blamed everything on “fate" and Tatian answered that our miseries are our own fault - in light of the fact that our own free will brought evil into the world—but our own free will can reject evil. Additionally, as it concerns his connection with the Assyrian Church of the East (if wanting to know more on them), I'd say that One excellent resource is [/url] East Meets East: What East Meets East is about , which focuses on showing the history of interaction and what people can learn on the matter. For them, they've been on their own long before the Great Schism and have experienced many things other parts of the Body have not.

The Mesopotamian School & Theodore of Mopsuestia

The Development of the Canon of the New Testament - Peshitta

The Church of the East: An Illustrated History of Assyrian

The Assyrian Church in the Mongolian Empire - Journal

Mar Thoma: The Apostolic Foundation of the Assyrian Ch

We are Assyrians - Journal of Assyrian Academic Studies

Christianity in the Second Century: The Case of Tatian
[*]

Early Christian Thinkers: The lives and legacies of twelve key figures

Being Orthodox, Patristics is one of those topics where you have to always be wise in how to go about it since not every Church Father was always held with the same esteem - whereas others ended up going into A LOT of craziness later on that did harm and others who were accused of mess had to unfortunately deal with a lot of false accusations on people not understanding what they were about. They are all vastly different and some are not known as well - with many within the Protestant world often coming to pick & choose among the fathers and yet not seeing them as a whole for what they were...but the Fathers are amazing and I tend to lean toward the Syriac Fathers myself.

Tatian's Address to the Greeks - Early Christian Writings

THE FIRST HARMONY OF THE GOSPELS: TATIAN'S

There's actually an excellent book on the subject which I have greatly enjoyed and found insightful - as seen in the work by Ronald Kydd called Charismatic Gifts in the Early Church: The Gifts of the Spirit in the First 300 Years (more shared here)

He also has another which is really beneficial entitled Healing through the Centuries: Models for Understanding (more shared here).

Others have spoken on the issue in-depth. As said more in-depth by another who recommended the book (as said for a brief excerpt):

The presence of Montanism in the early church also provides us with evidence of the continuing operation of the gifts of the Spirit. Aside from the Montanists themselves, numerous church fathers regard the gifts as still valid. For example:

Justin Martyr (a.d. 100-165) boasted to the Jewish Trypho "that the prophetic gifts remain with us" (Dialogue with Trypho, 82).

Irenaeus (a.d. 120-200) also bears witness to the presence of the gifts of the Spirit. He writes:

·"We have heard of many of the brethren who have foreknowledge of the future, visions, and prophetic utterances; others, by laying-on of hands, heal the sick and restore them to health" (Against Heresies, 2:32,4).

·"We hear of many members of the church who have prophetic gifts, and, by the Spirit speak with all kinds of tongues, and bring men's secret thoughts to light for their own good, and expound the mysteries of God" (Against Heresies, 5:6,1).

·"It is impossible to enumerate the charisms which throughout the world the church has received from God" (Against Heresies, 2:32,4).

Eusebius himself concludes that the charismata were all still in operation down to the time in which Irenaeus lived (Ecclesiastical History, 5:7,6).

Apollinarius is quoted by Eusebius as saying that "the prophetic gifts must continue in the church until the final coming, as the apostle insists" (EH, 5:16,7).

Epiphanius, perhaps the most vocal opponent of the Montanists, did not attack them because they practiced the gifts of the Spirit. Indeed, he declared that "the charism [of prophecy] is not inoperative in the church. Quite the opposite. . . . The holy church of God welcomes the same [charisms] as the Montanists, but ours are real charisms, authenticated for the church by the Holy Spirit" (Panarion, 48).

Ironically, one of the principal reasons why the church became suspect of the gifts of the Spirit and eventually excluded them from the life of the church is because of their association with Montanism. The Montanist view of prophecy, in which the prophet entered a state of passive ecstasy in order that God might speak directly, was a threat to the church's belief in the finality of the canon of Scripture. Other unappealing aspects of the Montanist lifestyle, as noted above, provoked opposition to the movement and hence to the charismata. In sum, it was largely the Montanist view of the prophetic gift, in which a virtual "Thus saith the Lord" perspective was adopted, that contributed to the increasing absence in church life of the charismata.
There are others who live out this principle, to be clear. And in example, one can consider others such as Orthodox Evangelist Charles Omuroka (who operates within Africa....more here, here and here) as well as Fr. Eusebius Stephanou of the Brotherhood of St. Symeon the New Theologian

And for others who've spoken on the issue:

LOOKING ANEW AT THE NEW PROPHECY: TERTULLIAN’S MONTANISM AND PENTECOSTALISM AS NEO-MONTANISM

Good thoughts...

Things shift and they merge in so many differing ways....

And it is truly a puzzle. On the rest of what you said, I definitely agree that Hagin would technically have to see St. Paul as the great, great, great grandfather in regards to WOF

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And for thread examples:

Word of Faith vs Reformed: Question on How Fredrick Price Jr was treated in interview (Jan 15, 2013, )

God wanted Mr. Obama (Gxg (G²), Nov 27, 2012 in forum: Word of Faith )

Sabbath rest, tithes and such (Dec 25, 2011 in forum: Word of Faith )

Joseph Garlington: How much Does Prayer Impact the Actions of God and the World? (Gxg (G²), Dec 24, 2014, 7 replies, in forum: Word of Faith )

Silver or gold I do not have"

Testimony Power: Does Anyone here remember Helen Baylor's Words at Dr.Price's church? (Mar 26, 2012 in forum: Word of Faith)

Does Anyone Here Feel that George Washington Carver was an example of Faith? ( Jun 23, 2011 in forum: Word of Faith)

Many others besides that. This has also been shared before in other places where I noted agreement with the Faith Movement - as seen in Has Messianic Judaism been positively or adversely affected by Word Faith Teachings? (as well as #42/ #43 and #46/#46 / #47 /#48 ).

ABlessedMan said:

You are a blessing and are welcome to teach and discuss here (or anywhere I may wander) to your heart's delight.

In fact, as has happened on occasion, if you don't show up once in a while I go looking for you when I need to be checked or I need some help.

So don't badger yourself even in the slightest. What you did in these forums -- what you have always done in these and any other (like CARM; verification!!) forums -- is to the blessing of the body of Christ. In keeping the conventional discussion real; in showing historical factors for the conventional areas; for showing/teaching us areas of Christianity that we are not aware of; for leading us to people that we might not know and how they helped shape Christianity and even the world around us.

You are a great blessing. Don't ever forget that. Welcome now. Welcome in the past. Welcome in the future. Welcome alwa-- well, no: if you ever get off track I'll come down on you like a load of bricks!

God bless you, my friend!!

hhodgson said:

Gxg (G²)... I have been wanting to say this for a long time so you better sit down... for what I have to say may not sit well with you.

I have followed many of your posts since I've been on CF since late 2012 (And wow, time does fly by us).

Well, here it comes (G²) and this is very difficult for me.. I only have (one) word to describe your involvement in this Christian Forum, especially in Word-of-faith.

View attachment 168390 "AWE-SOME!!!

I am toasting this drink to you Gxg (G²)... View attachment 168388(raw apple cider vinegar with the mother) View attachment 168389

.....
Anyway (G²), you are most welcome to teach here...

View attachment 168392

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[/QUOTE]
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Thus, speaking on what is or isn't WOF from yourself is taken with a grain of salt since much of what you've said in teaching has never been WOF. Your questioning of that is irrelevant as it concerns the subject of the thread.

You claim to be WOF, yet you speak against it when saying one does not have to repent of sin in order to follow Jesus. You say you're WOF, yet you ignore throughout WOF where homosexuality, sexual immorality and sins of many other kinds are rountinely condemned in the movement. Thus, by your actions? Where is your real commonality with the movement as a whole?

At best, what you have shown is agreement with others claiming to be WOF in the movement who were noted to be misrepresenting the entire camp in the name of it. This has happened a lot when people come claiming to believe in other things said in WOF - yet they do not follow the movement as a whole. This is the central issue behind why others in the WOF forum have said they do not stand with you nor support you when God's Word is not accepted at many points.

Moreover, Brian Houston has never claimed to be WOF and it would be falsehood to claim otherwise. Baptist ministers have served in circles where the Faith Movement is but that does not make them WOF. But ultimately,it would not matter with Brian since he has preached Gay Christian theology and that is both against Jesus Christ and against WOF. It is why Joseph Prince has again denoucned his teaching and said it is wrong. It is what it is.

That said (and hopefully the last time for me noting it), you are off topic with regards to the Original post. Please be respectful and address the Original post rather than going off topic.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 14, 2016

Sophrosyne said:
Last I heard of Carlton is that he teaches some at a Church on south Peoria here in Tulsa. I really haven't kept up with him much but the rumor I hear that sent him "over the edge" was that his father died and was "unsaved" and this upset him so much to think that his father was in hell that he essentially changed his thinking to reject the idea.

That makes sense - having the loss of a family member will make a world of impact.

I don't really know if it was the case or not. I've heard that he was known to be a good biblical scholar but I often wonder at times that being good at studying the Bible but not having the Holy Spirit operating in your life leaves you succeptable to seeing what you desire in the Bible (or not) instead of what is truly there. I'm not WOF specifically but I do agree somewhat on some things that they do and my former late pastor of my church was a graduate of ORU I think he later got his doctorate in theology from there also.

I understand where you're coming from.

I think the problem with universalism and inclusionism and essentially overly liberal Christianity is sooner or later some people end up changing things to suit themselves so much that it is hard to see if they are Christians any more. I don't consider Carlton a Christian at this time, is/was he saved? Only God truly knows.

For Carlton and others like him, they simply need our prayers. That said, indeed, it makes a world of difference...

Gxg (G²) · Jan 14, 2016

Simon the Tanner said:
I love G. Craig Lewis. He's right here in the Dallas area and he was the only one I heard take issue with T. D. Jakes for his dabbling with Babylon by bringing Oprah and other New Age people into his church.

I am very glad for the work he has done in the Faith Movement and his willingness to call sin sin. I remember following G. Craig Lewis when it came to the issue of Mega-Fest and how much of a problem it was then with others pushed forward who never loved Christ - so to see him pushing Oprah (who denies Christ) forward is sad to witness..

What he shared on the issue of the LGBTQ world and others trying to push it within the Church was so timely.

Gxg (G²) · Jan 14, 2016

Simon the Tanner said:
I love G. Craig Lewis. He's right here in the Dallas area and he was the only one I heard take issue with T. D. Jakes for his dabbling with Babylon by bringing Oprah and other New Age people into his church.

I think the stance he has taken is timely when addressing how anti-Christ times have gotten when many are claiming it's okay not to repent of sins and yet still be accepted by the Lord.

de1929 · Jan 14, 2016

Gxg (G²) said:
Agreeing with Brian does not mean you agree with Jesus. Period.

you are non wof pushing orthodox value here.

Also why you are replying off topics and bring LGBT issues start with post 14 below ?
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...lusion-doctrine-in-wof.7926986/#post-69116899

Gxg (G²) · Jan 14, 2016

Sophrosyne · Jan 14, 2016

Gxg (G²) said:
That makes sense - having the loss of a family member will make a world of impact.
I understand where you're coming from.
For Carlton and others like him, they simply need our prayers. That said, indeed, it makes a world of difference...

Sadly I think that as long as he is given attention by people who agree with him that he may never come back to mainstream Christianity.

Anyone Remember what happened to Carlton Pearson? Also, how to deal with Inclusion Doctrine in WOF?

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