Hi Farm Truck,
Nice post. Stay with me here, as I'll stay with you through this discussion. Remember, we are talking, discussing, not fighting (as your last sentiments seem to say). There are many places in this post where you make my argument for me so that you can knock it down. That's called a straw man. Better if you simply make your point and respond to my points instead of making my argument for me.
You are likely right that I won't convince you and you won't convince me, but we will plant seeds, and the good seeds of the Word will grow. We both love the Lord and desire His will, so the ground is fertile and good.
Let's have a good discussion (passion is ok!) and not let that slip away.
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One other point I'd like to make is that while I believe God's Grace is wonderful, and I am OSAS, but there is a difference between a teacher of Grace and a teacher of "extreme Grace." You are correct that the extreme grace person seems to think that they have a license to sin. We know this isn't the case for Paul told us so in Romans 6. So please, don't count me in that crowd.
So, are you up for discussion?
If OSAS is true, then man was not actually created in God's image which is why seedtime and harvest applies to us just like it applies to God Who decided His entire Kingdom will work on this concept and said He cannot be mocked, whatsoever we so is what we reap... if we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh reap corruption (Gal 6:7,8)
Not quite sure why OSAS's truthfulness stands or falls on God's image. As far as sowing and reaping is concerned it is correct.
7 Do not be deceived. God will not be made a fool. For a person will reap what he sows, 8 because the person who sows to his own flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
Gal 6:7-8 (NET)
If we sow to the flesh we reap ... what? "Corruption from the flesh." Sickness. Disease. Galatians 6 is not speaking of salvation, but our walk, our deeds, carrying our load. This is speaking of physical matters.
Which is why God put Jesus in His High Priestly ministry because He knew we would still willingly sin even after we are born again (Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, 1 Corinthians 11:31, Hebrews 10:26)... which I understand the extreme grace people teach is wrong to go to God and confess our sins, which lets me know where that teaching came from because these folks are teaching that the Bible didn't really mean what it says. satan never changes, he's still trying to say that God did not mean what He said, ain't that something?
Yes, Jesus is the High priest. But unlike the OT priests He doesn't make atonement for our sins daily (or yearly).
11 And every priest stands day after day serving and offering the same sacrifices again and again - sacrifices that can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 where he is now waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet . 14 For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy.
Heb 10:11-14 (NET)
The OT priests stood day after day. Jesus took away our sins with ONE sacrifice for all time. Perhaps, maybe, this was
one sacrifice but we repent over and over for our sins. But that's
not what verse 14 says: one offering has perfected all whom are made holy
for all time.
So who are the ones being made holy? Well, we missed that by one verse above. Let's back up one to see:
By his will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:10 (NET)
We are made holy. How? Through the offering of Jesus Christ. How long does it last? For all time (v14).
You mention verse 26 in your quotes. Let's take a look.
26 For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us, 27 but only a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume God's enemies .
Heb 10:26-27 (NET)
What does this say? "Deliberate, repeated sin." Understand one thing as we look at this phrase, that "receiving the knowledge of the truth" is NOT salvation -- it is simply hearing the Gospel message. Look at Matthew 13:18-23. The Word is sown AND it is heard, received. The seed on rocky ground was even "received with joy!". But it had no root. There is no salvation resulting from it. People receive the knowledge all the time and do nothing with it.
So, these people commit "deliberate, repeated sin." They
practice sin. They do not desire to stop. Well, the Word tells us about such people:
7 Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous. 8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil.
1 Jn 3:7-8 (NET)
Practice righteousness, you are of God. Practice sin, you are of the devil.
Note, this is willful practice and not just the act therein. We all sin. It is important whether you willfully practice it or not. For the child of God, the person who is truly saved... well, let's let scripture tell us:
Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God's seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God.
1 Jn 3:9 (NET)
Catch that? If you are fathered by God -- if you are His child -- then you do not practice sin. In fact, you are "not able to sin" BECAUSE you are born of God. Here is another translation:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 Jn 3:9 (KJV)
Whoever is born of God "cannot sin."
1 John 1:9-10 tells us where we came from. We were sinners. We lie if we do not admit that we were sinners. Notice verse 10 in chapter 1 says "if we say we HAVE NOT sinned." It does NOT say, "if we say we DO NOT sin." 1 John 1:10 is in the past. We were sinners. If we are now truly saved, born of God, His child, then we cannot sin now.
But we commit sin daily, do we not? Yes, we do. But Jesus blood already washed it away and it's effects, according to Hebrews 10:10, is to make us holy and this, according to Hebrews 10:14 is to last for all time.
Not saying it is a pretty subject, but Jesus did say not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter in to the Kingdom, and even those who prophesied in His name, cast out devils, and in His name done many wonderful works (obviously charismatic folks here) will not enter into His Kingdom (Matthew 7:21-23 - maybe Jesus mispoke?)... and notice Jesus did not say those works were not done with and by the power of God.
But nothing here speaks of losing salvation. It speaks of Mormons, JWs and the like. The phrase I bolded seems to say that you think charismatics are fakes? And since Word of Faith is certainly charismatic, this would tell me that you are not Word of Faith. In this congregational forum, only members of the forums group (Word of Faith) may teach here.
What Jesus "did not say" is preaching from silence. Its a guess to be making doctrine from what is not written. Other parts of scripture tell us that there are many false teachers who perform signs, but it is not of God.
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matt 24:24 (NET)
Sure God's plan is for us to get saved and to never look back but based on what Jesus taught in Mark 4:14-20 it is entirely possible to allow things to enter in and choke the Word so we do not bare fruit. Then, in John 15 Jesus said those in Me who bare no fruit, the Fatherh takes away - apparently if a person refuses to walk with the Lord and allow the Lord to be both Savior and Lord... they are not bearing fruit which means they have other things in their life they view as more important than the Lord which is idolatry.
We've covered Mark 4:14+; those who hear and receive have simply heard and listened. But if there is no root, there is no salvation. John 15 is parallel to his epistles in 1 John. If you practice sin you do not remain in Him. You were never saved.
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Yes, of course. Those who are not saved will face hell. Nothing here about losing salvation.
So it's getting late here...let me cut to the chase to give you something to explain in a lost salvation model:
27 My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father's hand. 30 The Father and I are one."
John 10:27-30 (NET)
"No one can snatch them from my Father's hand." Jesus gave them eternal life. "They will NEVER perish."
When you are given salvation, you are changed, and NO ONE can take it away. Not even you! You will NEVER perish.
Can't lose it.
Once you are saved, you can't perish. Once you are saved you are always saved.