• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

Anyone Remember what happened to Carlton Pearson? Also, how to deal with Inclusion Doctrine in WOF?

Discussion in 'Word of Faith' started by Gxg (G²), Jan 9, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    +1,182
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    Shalom..

    Something that came to my mind recently when going through the boards was the following:


    Seeing how things can be taken to extremes (and I appreciated what Simon said on the matter), I was writing due to how I have seen a trend within the world of WOF at certain parts of the camp - and that specifically is in regards to the subject of God's Word not being something that is central in the lives of others - above all else. Specifically, this has been brought up in regards to how the message of God's grace has been taken to such extremes as to make it seem as if everyone will go to Heaven regardless - and growing up in the Faith Movement, this was always something that was a HUGE problem I was warned on.

    Others have discussed the issue in-depth recently (such as Dr. Michael Brown - when taking others like Joseph Prince out of context in saying he advocates 'easy grace' without boundaries and the same in regards to others). However, it is difficult since many are using teachings wrongly in claiming that people like Joseph Prince and several others believe that certain sins are not to be condemned. This is not the first time such events have occurred historically.

    I was immediately reminded of others such as Carlton Pearson when he was impacted by that (before he was disconnected from Oral Roberts publically )and took the concept of grace so far out that he went into left field in the Faith Movement. And for reference:

    You remember how he was on TBN and with many other prominent leaders in WOF:







    And yet in time, he went off the rails because he did not have balance




    What I am seeing in the times we live in - especially in regards to things such as sexual immorality (i.e. sleeping around, adultery, pornagraphy, LGBTQ, etc.) is that avoiding condemnation of behaviors while encouraging others to trust in God as they seek repentance from those behaviors is not being maintained.

    And while I do pray for others such as Carlton Pearson to come to awareness of God's truth and remember who the Lord is, I also pray that the impact his teaching is having with making a resurgence (really the same thing that has come up before in past times since the Early Church is seriously addressed).

    Does anyone here have any thoughts? Has anyone ever encountered such behavior in the movement?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    +1,182
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    To be clear, when it comes to what I've been exposed to within the WOF world, what I witnessed was that the emphasis of grace was always to encourage repentance and not simply think all things are acceptable if one is to believe God's love is present. This is something that others have spoken on before and I am thankful they shared on it, for some examples:











    Also, on where I grew up and what I experienced in the Faith Movement,

    What follows are things I was taught in the Faith Movement (from Pastor Jason Kerr, of Lester Sumrall ministries - with Pastor Jason being on TBN a couple of times, verification here ) preached on it many times - more shared here as well as here:



    Other people I grew up with within the Faith Movement have said the same....others coming to mind being people like Judah Smith (son of the late Pastor Wendell Smith), who has worked with others in the Faith Movement, is very big on trusting God by faith and who has often pointed out whenever it comes to the grace we have been given in Christ:





    At no point were we taught to believe that all sins are accepted and not to be condemned if we were to promote the love of Christ.

    Again, if anyone has any thoughts on the matter, I'd love to hear. The following scripture comes to mind:

    Jude (KJV)
    1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

    2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

    3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

    9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

    11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

    12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

    13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

    14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

    17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

    18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

    19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

    20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

    21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

    22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

    23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

    24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

    25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

     
  3. ABlessedMan

    ABlessedMan Teacher of the Word

    +248
    Word of Faith
    Married
    I haven't seen much in the way of Universalism with people that I deal with personally. The people I know who are Christian are in the other ballpark, where there simply is not any grace at all toward the sinner. I know people who avoid and will not willfully come in contact with a homosexual, a Mormon, a Muslim, etc.

    I ask them: how will these people ever get saved if you do not share with them? And the answers range from "someone else can talk to them" to "oh, let them burn in hell." And their justifications are always: "don't fellowship with the sinner" and "wipe the dust from your feet."

    I don't know if I'm heading in the right direction to your question, but that's what hit my mind when I read your post.

    Shalom, bro!! ;)


    (and as I post this, I see you've already added to the discussion.)
     
  4. Simon the Tanner

    Simon the Tanner Aspiring Apologist / Theoretical Theologian

    123
    +76
    Word of Faith
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    I lived in Tulsa for 20 years and I visited Pearson's church once. He never really was WoF, although there was naturally some overlap being a Charismatic pastor in Tulsa and all. It's interesting that you should bring him up, because I'm reading his book The Gospel of Inclusion for research on a blog post I'm writing about universalism. The guy is all over the place, theologically. One minute he's spouting New Thought, the next it's New Age, then he dabbles a bit in yin and yang/dualism. In one chapter he'll cite scripture to support what he says, and the next chapter he'll tell you how unreliable the Bible is. Bottom line, he has no set theology. It's all about Carlton and his childhood trauma from the doctrine of hell.
     
  5. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    +1,182
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    Saddened to see anyone say "let them burn in hell" and run from people Jesus went out of his way to encourage/give truth, but many people do not know how approach others. I've seen, for example, that many do not know how to approach Muslims based on fears they've been trained to have via the media but there is no real relationship or practical tools they have available in order to encourage them. The same goes for those trapped in sexual sins/lifestyles, although what has been a bit of a problem (as it concerns the direction of the thread) for that one has been that others take the dynamic of not abandoning others and then assuming that active practice of the lifestyle means one is never in danger or that salvation is guaranteed regardless.


    Of course, I am also keeping in mind what you noted plainly years ago in addition to others:




    Good thoughts, regardless, and thank for sharing :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  6. de1929

    de1929 Junior Member

    534
    +58
    Word of Faith
    Married
    I have a lot of thoughts on this issues. some leaders in start with something and now become another thing. Very normal. the gospel must be spread, at all cost. That includes, leaving some doctrines, and / or accepting new doctrines.

    It's only doctrines. why worries ?

    Psychology study says: if we are not like them, then they will not open to us. so ? we retrofit the bible interpretation to fit their need, so they will accept us.

    remember brian houston from hillsong ? what is bryan houston position on LGBT issues ? what do you think brian position after you read the post below ?
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/h...ngs-of-paul-are-clear-on-this-subject-128282/

    the gospel must be spread, at all cost :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  7. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    +1,182
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    He was with Oral Roberts, of course, so in that sense he was very much WOF AND connected with the Faith movement. As many times as the man was on TBN with many WOF Leaders, I had to wonder at times how well accepted he was - and he did used to work with others such as Joyce Myers and Paul and Jan Crouch among others...even T.L Osborn (Who was a Founder within WOF). For reference:



    Of course, having an endorsement does not mean the man was on point since you can easily endorse someone and still be off track in the decision - and they all turned back on Carlton rightfully for where he went off course, after seeing Oral Roberts lead the way in addressing his spiritual son for going off course.. The only one prominently close to what Pearson did would perhaps be Joel Osteen, as based on something he said in one interview:


    I was intrigued by the way that Benny Hinn sought to call out Joel Osteen when he was on Larry King (despite the fact that Benny Hinn has YET to show himself spotless and did not seem to acknowledge that Osteen actually noted the exclusiveness of Christ later):



    It is indeed sad to witness the ways that the man is truly all over the place with his theological stances when it comes to Inclusion take to the degree as he did. And it's unfortunate in light of the fact that he did not take the time to truly honor God's Word as He was meant to do and instead made the Word of God fit what it is that he wanted. What you're reading about is what Hagin, Copeland and many others warned on many times when it comes to playing around with what it takes to have salvation.

    Nonetheless, as much as it's unfortunate when others go off the rails, that's why it is important to note rather directly how Jesus alone is the Way to Salvation - there is NO salvation outside of Him and nothing whatsoever is open for discussion when it comes to that key doctrine (As the WORD OF God already commands us to be on our guard):

    1 Timothy 4:16
    Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
     
  8. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    +1,182
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    Unfortunately, a lot of people really do not deal with the Gospel - and it will never be the gospel to claim that others are able to remain in their sins actively without repentance and not change. That is not what the scriptures teach and God was very plain about that, which is why I hope others like Pearson will come to their senses. Some good video presentations on the matter that I was very glad for when it comes to seeing the real fruit of trusting in Christ Jesus:










    Jesus is the only means we have to ensure we're not condemned - but the apostles were clear that being made children of wrath and born outside of Christ placed on within the realm of the influence and authority of the enemy.....and as such, its why men had to be RESCUED from the power of the Devil - the one whom the whole world is under the sway (1 John 5:18-20) of due to not being connected to the transformative Holy Spirit of God that was lost in the garden - and can only be regained in Christ.

    On the enemy of the devil on those who are not saved, we cannot ignore what Christ said and what John noted in I John 3 alongside Paul in II Corinthians 10-11 when it came to the concept of others being servants of the enemy.

    John 8:31-46
    38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.”

    39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

    Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”


    42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

    44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

    1 John 3:8
    He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

    1 John 3:9-24
    9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

    The Imperative of Love
    10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.


    The issue of Cain being of the Evil one goes right alongside what the Lord promised in Genesis 3:15 when it came to the Lord promising Satan that he would place emitity between his seed and that of the womans, whom the Messiah would come. Cain was of the evil one spiritually, regardless of his being born physically as a man.....and Cain, though severely punished for murdering his brother, had no sense of repentance. This theme of others reflecting the enemy's character continued throughout Genesis, as it concerns Genesis 4:19-26 when it came to violence being on the rise and two distinct groups appearing: (1) those who show indifference to sin and evil (like the devil) and (2) those who call on the name of the Lord (the descendants of Seth, Genesis 4:26). In I John 3:15, John clearly echoed Jesus's teaching that whoever hates another person is a murderer at heart (Matthew 5:21-22)....and with Cain, his jealous anger drove him to murder.....and that made him of the devil, seeing how Jesus noted in John 8:44-45 that the enemy was a murderer from the beginning.



    And for good scriptures to keep in mind in regards to anyone claiming that GOD's Word/doctrine is not important when it comes to the Word of God.

    1 Corinthians 6:8-10 (NKJV)
    8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to yourbrethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

    I John 3:4-15
    Sin and the Child of God

    4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

    7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

    The Imperative of Love
    10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

    13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not lovehis brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

    The Outworking of Love
    16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

    18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

    The Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error
    24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.


    2 John 1:8
    Beware of Antichrist Deceivers

    7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that wemay receive a full reward.

    9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
     
  9. de1929

    de1929 Junior Member

    534
    +58
    Word of Faith
    Married
    JESUS by doctrine, and communicating JESUS are 2 different things. communicating JESUS means preaching the gospel.

    Why would you sacrifice preaching gospel at the expense of doctrine ?

    Calvary job is for doctrine or for lost soul ?

    wof supposed to be rhema based, not doctrine based. have you seen truthfrees replied in my thread ?
     
  10. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    +1,182
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    Forgot to mention earlier (as it concerns founders within the WOF movement) that others such as Lester Sumral actually did a really good job breaking down ways to have true change and that laid the foundation for showing why others are not able to be delivered because of childhood trauma ...and instead make a habit of glorifying their sin habit.




    And T.L Osborn brought the issue of the Gospel up in ways that were truly simple.

    Being on the mission field multiple times where the Power of God was present and people had less to work with - with it being the case that the Holy Spirit would encounter others even if they lacked scriptural awareness (due to a lack of training or Biblical education, scripture, etc.) and help them till others arrive to share God's Word/Scriptures and increase their faith to be complete - I greatly appreciate T.L Osborn for always keeping things centered on the way that Jesus Himself has risen from the dead....that message being what should and will always lead people to true change.


    Any message that leaves people stuck in the same manner they were BEFORE they got saved is not the Gospel - and that's something I am glad I saw on the mission field said many times, as even people without access to scripture and having to rely more on the Holy Spirit (be it in the West Indies or Latin America or China) noted that any message claiming to be of God and yet saying a person didn't need to repent of sin to demonstrate love for God is not a message Jesus preached


    True Gospel always leaves people changed :)

    That said, Do you have any good books you'd recommend when it comes to dealing with the issue of what you saw problematic with Carlton Pearson and others in the Faith Movement who chose to do as he was doing in claiming sound doctrine was less important than being appealing at the expense of preaching the Good News of Christ and the Gospel as Jesus taught it? I had some recommended to me and was seeking to see which ones you had studied.

    Going over the issue, I am reminded more and more on what St. Paul broke down when stating that the Gospel at no point ever said others were allowed to remain active in their sins - without repentance - and claim trust in Christ since that is no where close to what Jesus taught repeatedly when he noted "Repent" nor is it what was discussed in the Faith Movement repeatedly. God's Word has already been direct and clear on the matter when it comes the warnings of the apostles REPEATEDLY to have sound doctrine and guard against anything that was not of it.
    1 Timothy 6:3-5
    If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain



    Of course, when it comes to repentance, the behavior has to match the character of CHrist - and while it'd be easy to focus upon sexual sin as an obvious, there are other things which are far more subtle. One of the biggest ones would be unforgiveness and hatred, as an example. ..some of this which was shared more in-depth elsewhere if you ever wanted to join into that conversation (as noted there):


     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  11. ABlessedMan

    ABlessedMan Teacher of the Word

    +248
    Word of Faith
    Married
    Why do you separate the two? Jesus didn't.

    15 And the Jews marveled, saying, “How does this Man know letters, having never studied?”
    16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.
    John 7:15-18 (NKJV)​

    Jesus knew the letters (v15). In other words, He knew the scriptures known at the time (and then some!). He taught doctrine. It was God's doctrine, AND it agreed with the letters. Note (as shown in other verses) it was not the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees. It was the doctrine of the Gospel.

    So would I "sacrifice preaching gospel at the expense of doctrine?" To leave doctrine out is indeed sacrificing the gospel.

    Is "Calvary job ... for doctrine or for lost soul." Both. Doctrine is part of the Gospel message to win the lost soul.

    Now, what doctrine? As shown already we see Jesus' doctrine and we see the Pharisee's doctrine. In churches today we have doctrines of different denominations and movements. So what is doctrine when it comes to the Gospel of Christ.

    It is the accepted essential teachings of the Christian Church. It is what is the commonality between the denominations that make them a part of the Christian Church. It is what excludes the Mormon doctrines from being a part of the Christian Church. It is what excludes the Jehovah's Witnesses from being part of the Christian Church.

    So separating the two is not good.

    Have you looked closely at truthfrees replies? He upholds doctrine just as much as rhema (and correctly so -- if I've come across in my arguments as diminishing the Spirit and the charisma in our walk, then I apologize).

    It is not one or the other. It is both together. The doctrine that is preached must not be dry and dead, but must be given life through the rhema of the Spirit of God. The Rhema that is embraced must not be, as verse 18 begins in John 7 above, what he speaks from himself, but rather must agree with the scripture, must agree with the doctrine of the Christian Church.

    THIS is what Word of Faith not only is supposed to be, but what it is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  12. Simon the Tanner

    Simon the Tanner Aspiring Apologist / Theoretical Theologian

    123
    +76
    Word of Faith
    Single
    US-Libertarian
    None in particular. My views have been formulated by studying doctrines on my own, using books on systematic theology, comparing translations, and attending church for half a century. The two years I attended Rhema instilled in me a respect for God's Word. As much as Brother Hagin ministered by the unction of the Holy Spirit, he was first and foremost committed to the Word. As I learned the WoF there and studied theology on my own, I sensed the Holy Spirit telling me that the message of faith is totally compatible with the principles of hermeneutics and systematic theology. As I have sought further insight into these issues I have found that to be the case.
     
  13. de1929

    de1929 Junior Member

    534
    +58
    Word of Faith
    Married
    Jesus did :D... if you spend more time with RHEMA instead with LOGOS, you will find more revelations.

    15 And the Jews marveled, saying, “How does this Man know letters, having never studied?”
    16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.
    John 7:15-18 (NKJV)

    the doctrine is not mine, it's his who sent me. It means there is separation between JESUS property and SENDER property. But JESUS and SENDER are GOD correct ? it's trinity anyway.

    whether from GOD or My own authority. It means separation between from GOD's and JESUS own authority. But GOD and JESUS are same right ? it's trinity anyway.

    JESUS knews, people later ages will collect all scriptures and canonize it and make it a book. GOD is alpha and omega anyway, so HE knows what's gonna happen.

    HE knows the book will facilitate spreading gospel.
    HE also knows the book will facilitate confusing among christians, particularly text intepretation.

    It starts with wills to do HIS will
    "from GOD" meanings LOGOS
    "My own authority" is RHEMA.

    ---- so what's the problem ---
    1. many teachers here, using head-knowledge to decipher LOGOS, instead of going into GOD's presence to get RHEMA.
    2. only RHEMA has the power and authority. LOGOS don't. Have you seen this testimony ? it's RHEMA loaded, mininum LOGOS.
    https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=3811462&st=0&p=77973387&#entry77973387
    It influences a lot of people, yet at the expense of bible scholar. Just like JESUS time.
    3. Do you and bible teachers here, have any testimony about walking in faith, like what i did on no 2 ? it's important to feed people the right mindset, the right focus, right expectations, because wrong teachings has hefty penalty (matthew 18:5 -6).

    Matthew 18:5 - 6
    5"And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
  14. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    +1,182
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others

    Thanks for sharing this. Every single founder in WOF has noted this reality and it's something there is and will never be any compromise on when it comes to either studying and loving God's Word - or following God's Rhema.

    In practical example, same sex relationships are wrong and LGBTQ. God never approved of them, never accepted them or blessed them. Anyone saying "The Holy Spirit says to me that they are GOOD!!!" is not following the Holy Spirit as he has revealed Himself in the Word - since God already condemned that flatly in Genesis 19 with Sodom and Gommorah and other ministries. There are others today who seek to say otherwise, but they show by practice that they neither know God NOR do they love Him because God said plainly those who love him will obey His commandments.

    The same goes for saying, as an example, that murder is wrong. Someone claiming "Well, doctrine is not of God or good - my Rhema says murder is RIGHT!!!", they would be flatly wrong....and to preach otherwise would be against Christ since he already condemned murder multiple times.

    Anytime God says something is a sin in the scriptures or he preached against something and others come along claiming "Oh, that's not true", it really is corrupt in GOD's sight and does not need to be followed.

    The bottom line is that the Gospel NEVER - at ANY POINT - ever claimed that one could remain in their sin and be accepted before the Lord. It is not a laughing matter and one of the reasons why it has been said throughout WOF that anyone speaking on Rhema or God's spirit while being unable to condemn sin is really approving of things GOD said to be wicked.

    And of course, as has been the case with others on the forums doing such behavior, of course those doing so are NOT welcome throughout the Faith Movement. The Gospel is NOT a liscense to sin and that is what others are doing today which is against the Word of God. Jesus/God already spoke on the subject

    Ezekiel 18:21-23 But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

    Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

    Matthew 4:16-17 the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light. And for those who lived in the land where death casts its shadow, a light has shined.” From then on Jesus began to preach, “Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.”


    Luke 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

    Luke 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

    Matthew 7:16-17 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.

    Luke 3:8-14 Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance. And don’t start saying to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones! Even now the ax is ready to strike the root of the trees! Therefore, every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.” “What then should we do?” the crowds were asking him. He replied to them, “The one who has two shirts must share with someone who has none, and the one who has food must do the same.” Tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they asked him, “Teacher, what should we do?” He told them, “Don’t collect any more than what you have been authorized.” Some soldiers also questioned him: “What should we do?” He said to them, “Don’t take money from anyone by forceor false accusation; be satisfied with your wages.”



    And this is the witness of the Apostles themselves on the matter...


    Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

    Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out

    Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

    Acts 5:31 God has exalted to his right hand this very man as our Leader and Savior in order to extend repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

    And as Jesus again says to the Churches flatly concerning sin....


    Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

    Revelation 3:3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.



    People, usually if they are commited against the Lord with regards to refusing to preach repentance, will go for the argumentation that "Well, my interpretation is different than yours - but I still love the Word!!!!" - and that, of course, goes RIGHT Back to ignoring clear passages and the concept of starting with the Word. You cannot dismiss where God flatly dismissed something by claiming the scriptures may cause confusion when God went out of his way to make things plain.

    As an example of what has occurred in real life, I came across a picture recently and was surprised to see others offended by what the picture noted. As it stated:

    [​IMG]

    And as I said to them in response:​
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
  15. de1929

    de1929 Junior Member

    534
    +58
    Word of Faith
    Married
    do you need to accept the sinner and deal with sin later ? (no condemnation verses)
    or
    do you need to rebuke the sin and offense the sinner ? (sin-go-to-hell verses)

    If you think LOGOS can resolve that issues easily. You are blinded.
    different person needs different revelation.

    I call it Mr A and Mr B theory. It depends on rhema
    Rhema says: Mr A goes the blue way
    Rhema says: Mr B goes the red way

    As you can see, RHEMA resolves most people problems, at the expense of bible teachers opinions.
     
  16. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    +1,182
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    I don't intend spending too much time speaking to this except asking for you to please respect the OP subject..

    Please Quit referencing a closed thread for a topic that was banned on another forum, as trying to spread the same thing in threads it was not asked for is not respectful. Others spoke there plainly in regards to the matter and the teaching against God's Word - the reason it was banned to begin with - including when rules were broken rather than honoring the leadership there, as one of the moderators there (Fusion X) took the time to point out directly (in dex.php?s=71d2d4a5bd8af94558c4356d1f46d3a8&showtopic=3801614&view=findpost&p=77768823 and https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?...mp;showtopic=3801614&view=findpost&p=77764636 ) and (https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?...mp;showtopic=3801614&view=findpost&p=77808756 ).

    As you brought out a public thread, others able to read what was said publically can easily see where there were many wrong things done by yourself that had nothing to do with God's Rhema or God's Spirit. And as it is, it is NEVER God claiming that God's Logos does not have power and authority. To say otherwise goes directly against Jesus in what he said on several levels and is always going to be resisted just as others did so when addressing false teaching in the Scriptures.

    • All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16)
    • “… knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:20)
      • For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12)
      • So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:11)

      • “This is my comfort in my affliction, for Your word has given me life.” (Psalm 119:50)

      “… as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.” (1 Peter 2:2)
    • … that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish.” (Ephesians 5:26)
    • How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your word. With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments! Your word I have hidden in my heart, that I might not sin against You. Blessed are You, O Lord! Teach me Your statutes.” (Psalm 119:9-12)
    • ” … and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.” (James 1:21)
    • “For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.” (1 Thessalonians 2:13
      • Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another …” (Colossians 3:16)
    Jesus already said plainly“Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.” (John 17:17) and He is the standard. And Jesus made no distinction -
    • Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:31)


    Respectfully, as the topic of the OP is something you really have not dealt with, God has already noted how he feels on sin and the need to actively rebuke it - and he dealt with what the Word said multiple times on the matter when it came to how he operates - both LOGOS and RHEMA - addressing it.

    Jesus never lost sight of the fact that both the LOGOS and RHEMA always go together at the same time, although one may be shared more so than the other. Never can the two contradict each other - but both are necessary.

    A person who is struggling with sexual sin may need a Rhema Word where they have someone do like Jesus did in John 4 with the woman at the Well, where he read her mail - told her she was married multiple times - and then brought all things back to Himself as the Messiah and referencing the Word/Scriptural history. Or a person may need to have the Word of God placed forth first when it comes to others claiming things that are not true - and needing to know what God said before going into hearing God's Spirit, just like it was for Jesus when he was going into the Temple turning over tables/chairs and noting plainly to others "My Father's house is to be a house of prayer" (citing Isaiah) and then brought others in to minister/prophesy to them ..more shared here and other times when He would remind of what ...and another time when he/his disciples were falsely accused of working on the Sabbath and Jesus simply quoted the Word of God to them when 'He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need?..."( Mark 2:25 )



    LOGOS/WRITTEN Word was always referenced by Christ repeatedly (Mark 7, Matthew 15, John 10, etc.) to address issues easily - so it'd be moot claiming anyone is 'blind' for noting what Jesus did directly.

    He actually did that plainly in John 8 when it told the woman caught in adultery to "go and SIN no more" after noting to her he did not condemn her like her accusers - and before that, he dealt with her accusers by choosing to quote the Law against them. And for reference on where that was discussed:

    Jesus used the LOGOS to set others free ....we see where Jesus speaks in regards to both Rhema and Logos clearly with the Woman at the Well - and for more break-down on the Law, one can go here to Lesson 7 Chapter 5 - Torah Class - Rediscovering the Old Testament


    For another example on where the LOGOS was used to free people and emphasized....On the Jewish perspective, on John 10:31-33, within its larger context:
    John 10:20-33
    ....Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

    33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[c]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

    With John 10:31-33, one must remember that the Jews had already made clear that they claimed the ENTIRE Torah was theirs and that they were going to stone Jesus for it when he seemed to break it for claiming He was God. They felt that the Law God had given them in Exodus 20 was being broken when it came to Jesus doing what it was that they were going to stone Him for previously in John 8:59...and that issue was self-identificaiton as God, which they understood to be blasphemy. Their understanding of BLASPHEMY was based on how claiming to be God and, specifically, pronouncing God's name (as Yeshua had just done) were punishable by death (Leviticus 24:15-16 and Mishna Sanhedrin 7:5, "The blasphemer is not guilty until he pronounces the NAME.")

    With John 10:34-36, the phrase "Your Torah" is something that is often read without other considerations. For here, "Torah" means "Tanakh, " since the passage quoted is from the Psalms, not the Pentateuch. When Jesus says "You people are Elohim", here Greek theoi ("gods"), in the Hebrew text of Psalm 82 the word "elohim" may be translated "God," "gods," "judges" or "angels." Yeshua's rabbinic mode of Bible citation implies the context of the whole psalm (Matthew 2:6), which plays on these meanings:

    "Elohim [God] stands in the congregation of EL [God]:
    He judges among the elohim [judges/angels/gods]: How long
    will you judge unjustly?..I have said , "You are elohim [judges/angels/gods],
    All of you are sons of the Most High."
    Nevertheless you will all die like a man
    And fall like one of the princes.'
    Arise, Elohim [God (the Judge)], and judge the earth,
    For you will inherit all the nations." (Psalm 82:1-2, 6-8).

    And again, to be clear, it needs to be understood that in Judaism the citation of a Scripture text implies the whole context, not merely the quoted words. And with what Jesus quoted on Psalm 82, the first and last "Elohim" mean "God," but the others should be rendered "judges," "gods" or "angels." Yeshua's wordplay implies a rabbinic-style kal v' chomer argument (Matthew 6:30): if humans, who do evil works as they "judge unjustly" are elohim, how much more is Yeshua, who does good works (John 10:25, John 10:32-33, John 10:37-38, etc) Elohim; and if "all of you are sons of the Most High," how much more does the description "Son of God" apply to Yeshua.

    And that was done with the Lord using LOGOS/Rhema. It was never a matter of claiming 'You're blind to think GOD'S law is what settles it"

    Moving beyond that, one can also consider again John 15:24-26


    24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’[a]​


    The phrase "Their law ..." stresses the inordinate regard the priests had for the external features of Moses' law (which is what Christ was frequently against when it came to the Pharisee's interpretation of the Law in legalistic/"Letter of the Law" thinking rather than the intent of the Law---Love, which is what God has repeatedly noted is the TRUE Law. With the religious leaders, it was "theirs" in the sense of the affectionate regard they professed for it, while actually denying it by their sinful conduct. Note that the quotation ascribed to "the law" was not from the Pentateuch, thus revealing that the term "law" was a reference to the entire Old Testament..

    But Jesus often quoted the Psalms (LOGOS ) in reference to Himself to show He was the Messiah - and always set the record straight when it came to showing who He was by using the WORD (LOGOS) of God. This is the Biblical model - and this has been shared before, as seen here:

    We have to follow the example of Jesus
    But as you claim others are 'blind' for doing what Jesus said, please be aware - nothing you say has dealt with God's Word and it is what Paul resisted when it came to false teaching. Sin is always condemned when preaching and Jesus did this.

    Period.Sin is always condemned when preaching and Jesus did this.

    Period.

    Sin is never acceptable when following or claiming Jesus Christ. Period.

    Sincerely It will never be a 'testimony' promoting something opposite of what Jesus Chris said- one of the reasons your own thread was banned/others noted it to be a massive problem with teachings not based on what God said


    Rhema will NEVER condone what God said directly that he hated. Period. It is already well known you do not condemn certain sins and have made no secret of that, as noted on the forums elsewhere.....as seen here in the thread entitled Gay Conversion Therapy: Kidnapped for Christ
    :
    The thread you referenced from another website led to other places showing you say the exact same thing, despite where it is not based on anything Jesus said or others. Osteen nor Joseph Price ever said sin was acceptable and they have condemned sin repeatedly when speaking on the issue. So to misrepresent them is not a good thing. Please stop.

    Those teaching they know Rhema must show that what they define as Rhema actually lines up with the character of the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, many times they cannot and that is because they do not actually know the character of God's Spirit which is revealed/showed in how He operated in the life of CHRIST and throughout the Scriptures. This is a reality that will never be avoided whatsoever when it comes to the reality that people do not show understanding of Rhema by avoiding what the scriptures say - and trying to make it into an issue of claiming "Well this is at the expense of Bible teachers" since they act at the expense of God's Spirit/Rhema being honored.

    If it is not in line with how God's Spirit operated in the scriptures, it is not really Rhema.

    As the Apostles note:




    I John 3:24
    And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.

    I John 4:1-6
    Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already. Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater that he who is in the world. They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

    Verse 2 says, "By this you know the Spirit of God." In other words John is giving a test by which you can know if someone is being led by the Holy Spirit or by some other spirit.....and it is always based on whether something lines up with what Christ said.

    This is something the WOF Movement has spoken on before and others such as Derek Prince noted it when it came to discernment - as seen in
    The Spirit of Antichrist - Derek Prince Ministries



    And Pastor Fred Price has also noted the same thing as well:



     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
  17. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    +1,182
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    That makes sense - and it definitely something that makes a world of difference when seeing how things play out.
     
  18. de1929

    de1929 Junior Member

    534
    +58
    Word of Faith
    Married
    please don't tell me that you condemning sin. please...
     
  19. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    +1,182
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    As said before, if one does not wish to condemn sin, this thread is not the place for them since that is what Jesus Christ did - and Jesus is the example to be followed. If one is unable to deal with scriptures noting directly where Jesus both actively condemned sin and encouraged others to REPENT with wickedness (i.e. sexual immorality, murder, theft, anger, etc.), they are not truly dealing with Jesus AND are doing what the Apostles themselves resisted when it came to others going against the scriptures in order to have a license to sin instead of seeing where God's Grace/Christ never made sin have a pass. It's also NOT WOF in the slightest and that has been said on the forums before.

    From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17)

    I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. (Luke 5:32)

    The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. (Matthew 12:41)

    Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3, 5)​

    Jesus, the Son of God, warned people of the judgment to come, and offering escape if we will repent. If we will not repent, Jesus has one word for us, “Woe, to you” (Matthew 11:21). This is always to be kept in mind when seeing that the demand for repentance is part of his central message that the kingdom of God is at hand. “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel” (Mark 1:15).

    And Jude, the brother of Jesus, had to deal with the same issue when it came to others in his day doing exactly what others here are resisting since he had others in his time say "Why condemn sin?" and he addressed it flatly:


    Jude 1:4 (KJV)

    4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


    Jude (KJV)
    1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

    2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

    3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

    I will go with the Biblical example.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
  20. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    +1,182
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    What happens when we're children can drastically alter how we see the Lord.....and I do pray for Carlton to have healing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...