God is Said to do that which He Merely Allowed or Permitted

[Gxg (G²)]

Hi GXG,
Another point.

I started finding good Jewish scripture treasure, which I tried to share in this forum, but there was misunderstanding of what I was trying to do, so I stopped sharing these treasures in this forum.

No problem.

Now if I can stop sharing things that get misunderstood by others, for the good of this forum, why do some who insist wof is in error find it impossible to stop sharing how Wommack says wof is in error, etc?

Shalom Truth,

None of that really addresses the main issue which is something other Messianics have brought up before:

• You were actively TEACHING/DEBATING as a Non-Messianic on the MJ Forum

That is directly against the rules and numerous MJs have spoken on it before (with other forums being places such as [EP Active] MJ Emergency Protocol...or Are Gentiles Now a Chosen Royal Priesthood?...or Icons and the last few years on CF ....or Non-Messianic Posters and many other places besides that. Some come in seasons and others have been busy - but the point is that it is not a new issue. It was allowed because no one chose to report it - but back in the earlier part of the year, it would have been reported as it was frequently. Others chose to give you grace even as you continued doing so - and thus, it is inconsistent if you're saying to others here that they are either not WOF or that they are teaching against the forum. You already did otherwise.

And others have said that Messianic Judaism and emphasizing Torah has NOTHING to do with the world of WOF. Some saying it is legalism and others claiming that other WOF pushing the matter are innovators - in the same way you seem to be saying that others on the forum are innovators for having views you claim differ from the founders of WOF. Others who you have claimed that against have given evidence based on what the founders have said - and others have also interpreted phrases differently for some time.

I have no problem with Jewish culture or Jewish understandings/Eastern theology impacting how things are seen - ABM knows this since I've been involved in that for years. Nonetheless, I will not go to another forum teaching and then come back in my own claiming of others "The rules say!!" when I break the rules. That would place my integrity on the line..


And with Wommack, seeing that he has already been within the WOF Camp and others in the WOF World (i.e. Copeland, Hagin, etc.) have actually said the same things he has when it came to issues within the camp and claiming that others in WOF had things in it that were off, it doesn't really have any basis saying Wommack is wrong for what he did.

If he's wrong, then so is Dad Hagin for making a book correcting WOF called "The Midas Touch" when he called out several well-known groups in the Faith Movement that did not stay with original teachings.....

The peace and safety of this forum should be primary concern. Why? Because people learn best when they can learn in peace and safety.

The rules support forums having peaceful loving interaction.

Saying wof is in error is NOT creating a peaceful loving forum.

Correcting wof and teaching against our founding teachers is not creating a peaceful loving forum.

Trying to say Hagin and Copeland were at odds with each other (when neither of them has EVER said a negative word about the other) is not creating a peaceful loving forum.

I understand that 2 or 3 people with wof shields are serious about publicly correcting wof in the wof forum, but this is the wrong forum for that.

We were told in one of the closed threads that even wof shields can't teach against wof founding teachers (Hagin, Capps, Copeland, and company).

Unorthodox is where these few can go to correct wof teaching.

Respectfully - but I and others actually saw the forum how it was years ago....be it with ABM, dbkwarrior, Jedi K, Willey Cyote and many others. IMHO, It was far more peaceful, despite disagreements with others, and others could learn because people were not always quick to claim that two WOFers in WOF who disagree are automatically needing to either report something - or claim that what they taught is harming a forum..

Hagin already spoke against Copeland rather forecefully in his book "The Midas Touch" - that is beyond question since it was well known in the Faith Movement. People who value Hagin have no issue simply reading what he said - knowing that he respected Copeland as a spiritual son and yet knew there were clear disagreements that had to be addressed when it came to the concept of Biblical Prosperity and where things had gone off. This was done with him having a conference with Copeland and others in private prior to his death - when it came to people taking concepts that others were blessed by in the Faith movement....and turning them into abusive practices (i.e. the concept of reaping and sowing being used to say one can say whatever they desire/get it simply by asking--even if it goes against God's heart, the concept of saying all forms of giving MUST result in getting financial blessing back, giving under pressure as often occurs on telethons asking for money on Christian broadcasting networks when others say "God will curse you if you're hearing this and don't give", etc).

It is unfortunate that few seem to be aware of how Brother Hagin (aka, “Dad Hagin&#8221 had convened a special meeting in Tulsa, Oklahoma on the campus of RHEMA Bible Training Center in Fall of 1999 to address the excesses and error present within the “prosperity” message being taught by the major Word of Faith ministries...with people present being Kenneth Copeland
Creflo Dollar, Jerry Savelle, Jesse Duplantis, Mac Hammond and others.

For anyone wanting more, one can go here and here.

What seems to happen many times is that others are already studied up on what they learned from their teachers in WOF (including the founders) - and they talk things through with others agreeing. Someone disagreeing with them comes up and then debate starts when others say "That's not what the founders said!!" because of a disagreement in interpretation of what the founders said....or, for that matter, disagreement on who the actual founders are (as others rarely speak of founders like T.L Osborn or Lester Summural or Fred Price in WOF and yet they will actively speak on Hagin as if that's all that matters - due to the level of awareness....and I can say that confidently due to how many African-American leaders in the WOF world like G.Craig Lewis /the WOF era he's from or Bill Winston, many WOFers did not even know about due to how they focused in on only a couple).

If we choose to walk around in offense, anything will become a lack of peace (IMHO) - and that happens whenever things occur such as they have been here with all of the claims that others don't care for the founders simply because of disagreement. John Bevere actually spoke wisely on this issue before

If the rules are respected, we'd all be better off, don't you think my brother?

When I was in the MJ forum I never taught against MJ teaching, only for their teaching, debating those who taught against their teaching.

Teaching against any groups teachings is a rule breaker in every forum.

I have no problem with rules respected. Nonetheless, we all have blind spots that keep us from seeing when rules we claim to keep are actually being not walked out by us...

And I say that in light of the fact that It doesn't matter whether you claim that you never taught AGAINST MJ teaching.

The rules say that non-Messianics are NOT ALLOWED to teach or debate.

That is something that has been reported before and mods came to address it quickly long before you came on the forum. There is no justifying it. You have no right whatsoever to teach on the MJ Forum so long as you're not Messianic - and all coming into the forum on the MJ Section were required to actually sign in/read the SOP before commenting (which you never did) - as seen in You must read and agree before posting in this forum .

***Congregational Rule: Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

Members who share beliefs between other denominations and MJ( practice MJ but also attend another church or congregation) can post with in the tenents of MJ doctrines and beliefs (careful to not teach about your other churches doctrine in MJ) by showing the MJ icon or if using the other Church's icon stating in their Siggy or Title that they are indeed MJ as well.
__________________​

If you are indeed Messianic, the rules for the forum note how one is to identify themselves BEFORE even attempting to either teach or debate. Nonetheless, you never did that and it was something others chose to leave alone due to showing grace for where you were. Of course, if being very strict, it would have been called out immediately and you reported for going against the rules.

And at this point, now knowing the rules, one would need to go back and not do as you were doing before if the forum rules were truly as important as you say. However, defending it by saying "I never said anything against MJ teaching" doesn't show the rules to really be important.

As already stated, one can go here or here or here for verification (As there are many other places besides that). And again, other places on where you were openly teaching/debating on the forum despite not being a Messianic Member, one can go to the following for more verification:

• I'm reading an essay by Mark D. Nanos in the...

• I agree with one thing you said here, they are...

• Torah observance is spreading through the Christian faith.
  
• Maybe Moses was invented by the Rabbis ?

Civil war is not what's happening here my brother. Saying "wof is in error", and "correcting wof" in the wof forum is the problem.

No one is really against saying what is or isn't error - but claiming another disagreeing isn't WOF is civil war. Whether or not you agree is your choice.....and you have already, IMHO, been doing the exact same things you seem to be claimning of ABM and other when actively correcting them, at times not even referencing (in quote and phrase) where they are off from the founders.

Joel and Joseph have wof roots but they're not teaching wof. I have non-wof roots. Does that make me a non-wof?
__________________

Claiming that they are not teaching WOF isn't the same as showing that what they are saying differs exactly from founders like Hagin.

Evidence for saying otherwise would mean actually giving direct quotes from Hagin's teaching and comparing it to both Joel and Joseph - or comparing other founders like T.L Osborn or Lestur Summral in their words to other teachers like them. If that cannot be produced, then it is not difficult understanding why others say there's no real basis saying they are not WOF.

Facts are facts and have to be dealt with...and to be clear, I grew up in the WOF Movement during the late 80s/90s era and up to the early 2000s (04 being the max) before I began to start expanding beyond it (while still having friends/family a part of it - such as Pastor Claude/Rosa Bevier with Bill Winston in Detroit, MI) in seeing what the rest of the Body of Christ had going on. It was very helpful for me to witness the historical side of the Body of Christ since I could see clearly where many things in the Faith Movement were not new - but I am not limited by the Faith Movement and what matters to me more than anything else whether it's true or not. Facts are my focus..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In light of my opening post, let me now show everyone a better way of interpretting Isaiah 45:7 in light of comparing Scripture with Scripture.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isa. 45:7)
​

In the context, the Lord was at war with Babylon and He was letting them know that as a part of His judgment upon them He would SEND calamity or trouble their way. The calamities are the result of judgment upon nations like Babylon that oppose God (Isa. 45:24) and who will reap what they have sown (Ps. 7:14-16; Gal. 6:5-6).

Interpreting Scripture with Scripture, we see that God is not the author of the disasters (evils) that came upon Babylon. He permits these disasters due to their sin.

“And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.” (Deut. 31:16-18).
​

The word “evils” in the passage above is the Hebrew word “ra”; the same word used in Isa. 45:7. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture we see that evil comes when the Lord is absent. This is the proper understanding of the phrase “I create evil”.

Examining Isa. 45:7 in light of the above, we see that God is light (1 John 1:9; James 1:17) and creates darkness when He withdraws and darkness prevails. God offers men His light in spite of their rebellion (Isa. 50:10; John 8:12; 12:46; 1 Pet. 2:9) but men reject it because they hate it (John 1:5-11; 3:19-20).

Therefore, Isa. 45:7 is permissive in that God is allowing men the consequences of their choices. God is not the author of physical or moral evil. Evil comes when the source of good that protects from evil is forsaken. This is permission and not causation.

Many thanks for the posting you made.... Some of what you said seems to go in line with Romans 1:18-28 when it comes to talking about mankind self-destructing - and the Lord saying that his judgment was to allow men to have their own way, giving them over to their own desires and not holding them back. Thus, God both caused the destruction occurring by taking off the restraints and yet man was who began it when it came to his choosing to reject God.

This is no different than what happened to Pharoah when he resisted the Lord and God hardened his heart (Exodus 8:15) - as it was only AFTER Pharoh hardened his heart several times that the Lord chose to finally do so in Exodus 9:12.

But with the Lord allowing things as opposed to appointing things, it does seem that we still have to contend with the dynamic of seeing where God was noted to actively be promoting others who exectued judgment and terrible things upon Israel (i.e. death, wars, destruction, etc.) just as he actively promoted others into power who were used to do good.

In example,

Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

2 Chronicles 36
22 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah, the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing:
23 "This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:

" 'The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Anyone of his people among you—may the LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.' "

Ezra 1/ Ezra 1

Cyrus Helps the Exiles to Return

1 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah, the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing:
2 "This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:
" 'The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. 3 Anyone of his people among you—may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the LORD, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem. 4 And the people of any place where survivors may now be living are to provide him with silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with freewill offerings for the temple of God in Jerusalem.'
​

God called into power a good king to do amazing works - just as he called into power a bad one, whom he later humbled. God called Nebuchadnezzar, the wickedest king ever, His Christ and His servant ( ( 2 Kings 24:1-3, 2 Kings 25, Ezra 5:11-13, Jeremiah 21:6-8 , Jeremiah 25:8-10 , Jeremiah 27:7-9 , Jeremiah 29 , Jeremiah 43:9-11, Ezekiel 29:18-20 Daniel 1-4 ) . [/COLOR]

And that same King used by God was humbled later knowing God was the one calling the shots in those moments.

Dan 4:25-26 ​

That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. (26) And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule​

and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever; For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom endures from generation to generation. 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What hast Thou done?’” (Daniel 4:34-35).

​

Even the King of Babylon seemed to understand this. This acknowledgment of the sovereignty of God is made by a man who knows more of human sovereignty than any American ever could. Among the kings of history, this king is king of kings” (Daniel 2:37). He is the “head of gold” (Daniel 2:38). In comparison with his kingdom, the remaining world empires are described as “inferior” (see 2:39-43). When Daniel spoke to Belshazzar of the kingdom of his father, Nebuchadnezzar, he described the extent of his dominion:

18 “O king, the Most High God granted sovereignty, grandeur, glory, and majesty to Nebuchadnezzar your father. And because of the grandeur which He bestowed on him, all the peoples, nations, and men of every language feared and trembled before him; whomever he wished he killed, and whomever he wished he spared alive; and whomever he wished he elevated, and whomever he wished he humbled (Daniel 5:18-19).
​

The same thing, of course, goes for noting the ways that God also called the King of Persia God's Anointed One - as Isaiah declares that Cyrus of Persia is God's "Anointed One" who has been raised up to do God's will (Isa. 45:1 / Isaiah 44:28-45:9 ). , The man was called "Anointed" and “shepherd" by the Lord - and yet He was a PAGAN King!! (Isaiah 44:27-28 /Isaiah 45:1-3 and 2 Chronicles 36:22-23) - although there is a viewpoint I came across where the Historian known as Josephus noted that Cyrus saw himself in Biblical prophecy after reading on it and was even more inspired to help the Jewish people. Cyrus was a very complicated man - an example of leaders being beloved by their subjects for the ways they treated others/allowed a significant deal of multiculturalism and supported a policy of multi-religious views to flourish (more shared from previously in #119 and #120 ).

The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1; and 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy 150 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile, God clearly moved on his heart/changed the man's perspectives in accordance with His Divine Decree for what was to happen..moving the man into His Direction rather than passively waiting for something to occur



God is sovereign over secular governments. Throughout the history of Israel, God used the pagan nations to accomplish His purposes. God used Egypt to preserve and proliferate the nation Israel for 400 years before they were to possess the promised land. God used the hard-hearted Pharaoh to display His greatness and power. He used the surrounding nations to chasten Israel when the nation fell into sin and disobedience. He used the nations of Assyria and Babylon to lead the Jews into captivity. And as you noted earlier, Nebuchadnezzar was even called God’s “servant” and o(thers Jeremiah 25:8-12; Jeremiah 27:21-22; Jeremiah 29:10-14 )

And in many respects, when leaders were used to bring either GOOD or EVIL upon a people at God's command, it was still the Lord who was at the helm. It's like saying someone not allowing their Pit-Bull to be contained prior to the dog attacking others is not responsible for the harm that follows - but it's THEIR dog. Releasing it and letting it work is essentially tied back to the intents of the owner for what they wanted accomplished....and likewise, whether with good or bad leaders, if God is the one who ultimately allows for things to occur, how can we say that it is not Him whom we should look to? Thoughts?

 

[dkbwarrior]

What seems to happen many times is that others are already studied up on what they learned from their teachers in WOF (including the founders) - and they talk things through with others agreeing. Someone disagreeing with them comes up and then debate starts when others say "That's not what the founders said!!" because of a disagreement in interpretation of what the founders said....or, for that matter, disagreement on who the actual founders are (as others rarely speak of founders like T.L Osborn or Lester Summural or Fred Price in WOF and yet they will actively speak on Hagin as if that's all that matters - due to the level of awareness).

More good stuff here. I often cringe when people start talking of 'founders'. There are so many more than just Hagin, although he happens to be possibly the most well known here in the states. But the ones you mention, T.L. Osborn (who is still alive though he doesn't travel now), Lester Sumral, Fred Price (still alive and actively ministering-I love this man) and I would add Lindsey Graham, Brahnam (before he got off track with his untimely death) and Joels father John Osteen, Charles Capps and Norvel Hayes, and of course those before them, E.W. Kenyon and Smith Wigglesworth; not to mention Oral Roberts, (although one could classify him more along the lines of 'Faith Healer', or as 'Seed Faith' [if you hold that as a classification] but whose teachings in most cases fully aligned with WOF and was close friends with Hagin) could all be considered founders. One of the great reasons that the movement exploded so successfully (IMHO) was their ability to walk in love towards one another and help/promote one another in spite of some doctrinal differences because they didn't honor just the doctrine, but rather the anointing/office they held. Now some of these men were part of the doctrinal roots of WOF, while others were part of the charismatic roots of WOF. In some ways WOF has forgotten its charismatic roots and fallen prey to a certain amount of legalism, which manifests itself in these doctrinal disputes.

If we choose to walk around in offense, anything will become a lack of peace (IMHO) - and that happens whenever things occur such as they have been here with all of the claims that others don't care for the founders simply because of disagreement.

Agreed. QFTD. Good post.

Peace...

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Thank you for this tempered, even-toned response. I'd like to get back to exchanges with you instead of the junk we've been going through.

You need to read my posts more carefully brother.

IF you listen to ONLY Wommack, Meyer, Prince, etc you will not learn wof. You'll learn grace, relationship, etc.

Here's the issue. These three ARE WoF since they teach decisively Word/Faith topics in their overall teaching. The one I'd place most on the fringe is Meyer since she has fluctuated on a couple points.

Prince certainly FOCUSES on grace; Meyer certainly FOCUSES on dealing with relational issues. Wommack teaches on all core aspects of WoF; he's been quite loved here on the forums.

IF you listen to ONLY Hagin, Capps, Copeland, and their company you will learn wof, because these are our founding teachers whose ENTIRE focus is to teach wof.

No major disagreement.

Wommack, and Prince say their focus is grace, not wof.

Wommack certainly teaches grace, but has never said it was the central focus of his ministry.

from Wiki page for Andrew Wommack
Andrew Wommack is an American conservative Evangelical Christian TV evangelist, a Charismatic Word of Faith teacher and faith healer, as well as the founder of Andrew Wommack Ministries in 1978 and Charis Bible College (originally Colorado Bible College) in 1994.​

The others teach their own independent thoughts mixed in with wof, and have openly said wof is wrong in areas where wof teaches different than they teach. (Which is also what you do my brother.)

Where have I said Word/Faith is wrong?
Where have I said any WoF preacher is wrong in entirety?
I have pointed out individual teachings I think don't line up.

Notice how they DON'T say WE WOF are wrong (as though they're one of us).

They say wof is wrong (as though they're apart from us, which they are).

They don't consider or claim themselves to be wof, and they certainly aren't one of our founding teachers.

To these points: I am Word of Faith. I defend Word of Faith on a number of forums.

To your point, when did Wommack EVER say WoF is wrong?
To your point, when did Prince EVER say WoF is wrong?
You seem to say Meyer has said this? Can you provide a link?

Truthfrees, you've come into this forum as of late and SINGLE-HANDEDLY have tried to define what this forum is supposed to be.

The rules of CF say that each forum is defined by its Statement of Faith. We have an SOF posted in the sticky posts. I know, because I was one of the people who helped to develop it. It is the SOF that defines what this forum is about. It's in the rules as such. It helps us to define what the core beliefs of this forum are.

Especially with a movement, such as Word/Faith, a SOF is crucial, otherwise we may all have differing teachers that we consider foundational. I've pointed out a few times that even within the list you've provided that there are topics where there is disagreement. This is a fact. Hagin Sr. and Kenneth Copeland DO NOT see eye to eye on all topics. So which of these two is Word/Faith and which isn't? You have stated that in disagreeing situations one has to change or get out. If you think that this hard-liner stance is correct then we can put it to the test with just these two teachers.

But the reality is that BOTH are Word/Faith, even if they don't agree in all points. They agree on what defines Word/Faith. (Guess what? The topic of creation of evil is simply not defining. What it all comes down to is that God is good and doesn't use evil.)

This is not a goody-goody place. It is a place for WoF to talk, discuss, disagree and agree free of the type of critic that calls us a cult.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

More good stuff here. I often cringe when people start talking of 'founders'. There are so many more than just Hagin, although he happens to be possibly the most well known here in the states. But the ones you mention, T.L. Osborn (who is still alive though he doesn't travel now), Lester Sumral, Fred Price (still alive and actively ministering-I love this man) and I would add Lindsey Graham, Brahnam (before he got off track with his untimely death) and Joels father John Osteen, Charles Capps and Norvel Hayes, and of course those before them, E.W. Kenyon and Smith Wigglesworth; not to mention Oral Roberts, (although one could classify him more along the lines of 'Faith Healer', or as 'Seed Faith' [if you hold that as a classification] but whose teachings in most cases fully aligned with WOF and was close friends with Hagin) could all be considered founders. One of the great reasons that the movement exploded so successfully (IMHO) was their ability to walk in love towards one another and help/promote one another in spite of some doctrinal differences because they didn't honor just the doctrine, but rather the anointing/office they held. Now some of these men were part of the doctrinal roots of WOF, while others were part of the charismatic roots of WOF. In some ways WOF has forgotten its charismatic roots and fallen prey to a certain amount of legalism, which manifests itself in these doctrinal disputes.



Agreed. QFTD. Good post.

Peace...

First, what is QFTD??

Second, awesome set of posts both Gxg and dkbwarrior!!

 

[dkbwarrior]

First, what is QFTD??

Second, awesome set of posts both Gxg and dkbwarrior!!

Lol... QFTD = Quote For The Day.

Peace...

 

[hhodgson]

I will use the last word... from the last poster...(dkb)... on this thread up to this point as the...
QFTD = Peace...

​

 

[hhodgson]

When was the last time that someone said you were much appreciated... and no doubt... all of your recent posts were timely and... planned by God
before the foundations of the world was ever formed.
Awesome... Gxg (G²)

​

 

[hhodgson]

When was the last time that someone said you were much appreciated and no doubt... all of your recent posts were timely and... planned by God before the foundations of the world was ever formed.

Awesome...Gxg (G²)

 

[hhodgson]

That was worth a double post...

 

[dkbwarrior]

When was the last time that someone said you were much appreciated and no doubt... all of your recent posts were timely and... planned by God before the foundations of the world was ever formed.

Awesome...

Lol, this post made me think. I will make it a point to say this (or something like it) more often to people. Encouragement is something we are all called to, as much as instruction. I will start with you. I appreciate all your recent posts my friend, and find your posts both refreshing and inspiring. Thank you for being a part of this community.

Peace...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

One of the great reasons that the movement exploded so successfully (IMHO) was their ability to walk in love towards one another and help/promote one another in spite of some doctrinal differences because they didn't honor just the doctrine, but rather the anointing/office they held. Now some of these men were part of the doctrinal roots of WOF, while others were part of the charismatic roots of WOF.

Very excellent points. The dynamic of claiming who was or wasn't a "founder" can often be like being at the beach asking the ocean "Which one of you waves began first?"...some may all be present in a location, but that doesn't mean that only one was the root for all others. One can say that perhaps others were all branches on a common tree - but that doesn't mean those branches or leaves can break off and lead to new developments holding onto the spirit of what was originally promoted while others do the same but focus on a specific aspect of a larger truth that other groups didn't even as they focused on other aspects of the same truth.

The way that you broke down the differences between doctrinal WOF and charismatic roots of WOF is a big deal - for the WOF movement was rooted within the larger Charismatic movement rather than the other way around. And there are links between the WOF Movement and other movements that WOF developed into as time went on. Fr. Price has a son who now runs the church and he works with others such as G.Craig Lewis....new generation of WOF. But not many know about Fr. Price Jr or Lewis due to focusing solely on one founder like Hagin. The same goes for T.L Osborn, who was focused more so on the Missionary branch of the Faith Movement and the larger Charismatic world - taking the message globally instead of staying within an American context. His emphasis is naturally different on some things than a Hagin or a Copeland - but that rarely comes up in discussion.

We can see the same thing in others like Bill Winston and others connected to him like Keith Moore....the list goes on.

And even with Lester Summural, what I find interesting is that many of his ideas/concepts (as a founder in the world of WOF) led to the creation of other camps such as the Latter Rain movement.

And with WOF, what's interesting is that the Charismatic side of things is also tied with the MULTI-CULTURAL side of things as well - seeing that many have pointed out that the roots of true faith are also centered in racial diversity....just like the early Church. I'm reminded again of the work of Fred Price and where disagreements occurred between him and Hagin.

Hagin, who Price supports, had a book called "What to do when Faith Seems Weak and Victory Lost." The book was based on a sermon outline that Dake had in his book "God's Plan for Man" titled "Ten Things to Do When Faith Seems Weak and Victory Lost." Hagin gave Dake full credit for the outline in the intro of the book. Hagin and others have used Dake's teachings extensively......and some of this goes back to the issue of how WOF was developed from the practice of studying other sources. Hagin preached a number of sermons from other sources...with an example being Kenyon's sermons which were trascribed later. It was a normal practice of that time, no different than what happens with many today in Reformed theology when they're constantly regurgitating Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, John Piper, RC Sproul, etc. Most today did not come to their Calvinistic conclusions by simply studying Scripture....as they were influenced by men and they preached what they preached, many times word for word.

There are no quotes by Dake calling himself WoF, though other examples of him being connected with WOF would be seen in how the autobiography of Dake that was written by Leon Bible has a forward in it by Marylin Hickey where she talks about the times that Dake came to preach at their church. Hickey is WoF...and thus, with Dake preaching in her church, there's some connection with Dake and the WoF. Add to the fact that Dake Bible Sales company sells books by many Word Faith teachers as well...and so because of all of that, the WOF welcome Dake to the WoF family.

Most WoF use his material...and I remember when Fred Price stepped down from Rhema Bible School due to what he percieved to racisim being promoted within his work. Dr. Fred Price boycotted it and made an entire series against Dake which accuses him of racism. During the late nineties, Dr. Fredrick K. C. Price gave a three year study entitled “Racism in the pentecostal Church” (more found here) where he cited the Dake’s Bible and exposed many racial slurs Mr. Dake included in his Bible. Fredrick Price also made a book on the issue entitled Race, Religion & Racism: Perverting the Gospel to subjugate a people -.

In the Dakes Bible, there's one part containing the statements he said under "30 reasons for segregation of races." in page 159 of the New Testament....and of course, some of what he noted is understandable. For seventy-five years ago, when Finis Dake was alive, racism was much more accepted (tolerated) than it is today. . And Dake wrote his KJV with notes in 1954, as well as being born and raised in Georgia.

Moreover, most whites in the early part of the 1900s were racist by our current standards....and some still have aspects of that in their vocabularly. I recall being in one church fellowhship where another elderly white lady was talking to me about Jesus---and though she was noting how much the Word says we should love each other, I was shocked to see how she still called blacks the "N" Word and thought nothing of it (i.e. "God loves all who come to him in faith...and I think !#^* are some of the sweetest people ever"). All I could do was smile and nod at her comment, seeing that I was one of the few black people at the fellowship---and I thought that as much as she had changed, there were still many things that'd be difficult to change when growing up in a certain era. Dake was probably no different.


Concerning the notes, older versions from 1987 and on to the late 90's has the 30 items in question. They are notes for Acts 17:26. However, the 1997 Computer version of Dakes does not have these notes since they have been replaced with a "toned down" version. For the sake of informational perposes, I decided to place it up here (as I saved them from back in the day):

Dake Charts »Front Matter »Summary of Acts

Acts 17:26

a[one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth]


Separation in Scripture

This verse says God made "all nations of men" from "one blood"; it also speaks of "the bounds of their habitation." In spite of a common ancestry, from Adam first and later Noah, it was God's will for man to scatter over the earth, to "be fruitful, and multiply" (Genesis 1:28; Genesis 8:17; Genesis 9:1). Man's failure to obey caused God to confuse his language (Genesis 11:1-9) and to physically separate the nations by dividing the earth into continents (Genesis 10:25). Both physically and spiritually, separation has been a consistent theme for God's people:

1. Separation for Messiah's line:

(1) Before and after Noah's flood, fallen angels (sons of God in § Genesis 6:1-4, notes) married human women and had giant offspring. This was done to corrupt the human race and prevent the birth of the Messiah, the Seed of the woman prophesied in Genesis 3:15.

(2) Destruction of the corrupt human race was the reason for the flood in Noah's day. See note, § Genesis 6.

(3) God preserved Noah because he and his family were the only pure Adamites left. See note, § Genesis 6:9.

(4) Satan continually tried to prevent Messiah's birth by corrupting Israel through intermarriage with Canaanites whose race included giant offspring. One reason for Israel's separation as a nation was to preserve their purity for the birth of the Messiah. See note, § Genesis 24:3.


2. Separation in Israel:

(1) Abraham forbade Eliezer to take a Canaanite wife for Isaac (Genesis 24:1-4). God was pleased and He directed whom to get (Genesis 24:7-67).

(2) Isaac forbade Jacob to take a Canaanite wife (Genesis 27:46-28:7).

(3) Abraham sent the sons of his concubines and his second wife far away from Isaac so their descendants would not mix (Genesis 25:1-6).

(4) Esau's disobedience deeply grieved his parents (Genesis 25:28; Genesis 26:34-35; Genesis 27:46; Genesis 28:8-9).

(5) Two branches of Isaac remain separate forever (Genesis 36; Genesis 46:8-26).

(6) Ishmael's and Isaac's descendants remain separate forever (Genesis 25:12-23; 1 Chron. 1:29).

(7) God forbade Israel to intermarry (Exodus 34:12-16; Deut. 7:3-6).

(8) Intermarriage caused disunity among God's people (Numbers 12).

(9) Enemies remained in the land as a penalty for this (Joshua 23:12-13).

(10) Intermarriage caused a curse on Israel (Judges 3:6-7; Numbers 25:1-8).

(11) This was Solomon's sin (1 Kings 11).

(12) It was a sin of Jews returning from Babylon (Ezra 9; Ezra 10; Neh. 13).

(13) God told Israel to be separated (Leviticus 20:24; Numbers 23:9; 1 Kings 8:53).

(14) Jews are recognized as a separate people in all ages because of God's choice (Matthew 10:6; John 1:11).

(15) Separation between Jews and all other nations is to remain in eternity (Isaiah 2:2-4; Ezekiel 37; Ezekiel 47:13-48:35; Zech. 14:16-21; Matthew 19:28; Luke 1:32-33; Rev. 7:1-8; Rev. 14:1-5).

(16) Certain people in Israel were not to worship with others (Deut. 23:1-3; Ezra 10:8; Neh. 9:2; Neh. 10:28; Neh. 13:3).


3. Miscellaneous separation:

(1) An ox and an *** could not be worked together (Deut. 22:10).

(2) Stock was forbidden to be bred with other kinds (Leviticus 19:19).

(3) Sowing mixed seed in the same field was unlawful (Leviticus 19:19).

(4) Different seeds were forbidden to be planted in vineyards (Deut. 22:9).

(5) Wearing garments of mixed fabrics forbidden (Deut. 22:11; Leviticus 19:19).

4. Christian separation: Christians to be separate from certain people at times (Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Cor. 5:9-13; 1 Cor. 6:15; 2 Cor. 6:14-18; 2 Thes. 3:6,14; 1 Tim. 6:5; 2 Tim. 3:5).__________________

​

Minus the fact that much of the interpretation of these verses in terms of racist/ethnocentric views is wrong and needs to be addressed on the principal of the matter, it makes sense for Price to do as he did since Fred Price was a graduate of Rhema Bible School and a world famous WORD of FAITH teacher....and as other Charismatic and Pentecostal ministers ignored the racist remarks in Dakes Bible for over 50 years, something needed to be said....just as it was with other camps who had the same issue, such as John Weslely denouncing other great preachers like Jonathan Edwards for actively supporting the institution of slavery---despite Edwards being a remarkable theologian and renouned for his "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" and helping start the Great Awakening Revival

Price's "Race, Religion & Racism, Vol. 1: A Bold Encounter With Division in the Church" went into great depth discussing the historic lies propagated in the church that Blacks were inherently inferior and therefore needed to be segregated from Whites, particularly from white women..and he also went into great depth showing how authors such as Charles Carroll and Bible scholars Cyrus Ingerson Scofield and Finis Jennings Dake used the Bible to justify separation/segregation. I appreciated what Brother Price noted when it comes to the reality that neither color or ethnicity matter with God. ...and ESPECICALLY in regards to marriage, I appreciated how Price sought to show that Gods only prohibition regarding marriage is whether a believer is joined with someone who is not a believer. Dake Family Publishing agreed to allow Dr. Leon Bible to rewrite Dake’s and remove the racial slurs that were in review. However, the newer Dake’s Bible that others have seen do not mention the revision (As I'm aware)

With Price and his series on racism, it had many far reaching ramifications---as he noted comments by others regarding interracial dating and marriage as being wrong, such as those he pointed out made by Kenneth Hagin, Jr., the son of his own mentor. And as Price made clear, Sunday mornings are still the most segregated time in America...and historic problems such as slavery and segregation could never have existed without the consent of the Church--nor is it possible for seperation in churches/differing ethnic groups to continue today without the Church saying its okay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8_JrwOc_ow&index=43&list=PLwozmomzNyZJA2hXr7T88gNroXDci0Jmk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ze3xfUazyY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h5e0EuD_GQ

Price didn't stop being WOF because he critiqued Hagin. It was necessary..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I often cringe when people start talking of 'founders'. There are so many more than just Hagin, although he happens to be possibly the most well known here in the states. But the ones you mention, T.L. Osborn (who is still alive though he doesn't travel now), Lester Sumral, Fred Price (still alive and actively ministering-I love this man) and I would add Lindsey Graham, Brahnam (before he got off track with his untimely death) and Joels father John Osteen, Charles Capps and Norvel Hayes, and of course those before them, E.W. Kenyon and Smith Wigglesworth; not to mention Oral Roberts, (although one could classify him more along the lines of 'Faith Healer', or as 'Seed Faith' [if you hold that as a classification] but whose teachings in most cases fully aligned with WOF and was close friends with Hagin) could all be considered founders.One of the great reasons that the movement exploded so successfully (IMHO) was their ability to walk in love towards one another and help/promote one another in spite of some doctrinal differences because they didn't honor just the doctrine, but rather the anointing/office they held. Now some of these men were part of the doctrinal roots of WOF, while others were part of the charismatic roots of WOF. In some ways WOF has forgotten its charismatic roots and fallen prey to a certain amount of legalism, which manifests itself in these doctrinal disputes.

Perhaps it's just me...

But what's interesting is how often I see others saying that Smith Wigglesworth was one of the founders within WOF and yet they will leave out others who emphasized the same things as he did - as well as being the founders of the Pentecostal/Charismatic world itself from which WOF sprung from.


Specifically, I'm reminded of how many in WOF didn't even know who people were like William Seymour - even though the founders of WOF celebrated him.

• A Healer In the House? - Vinson Synan | HopeFaithPrayer

Again, healing as being a part of the Atonement was VERY much prominent before anyone such as Hagin and others came along....

For more info, one can go online and investigate the following under their respective titles:

• William J. Seymour: Peril and Possibilities for a New Era

• "Let the Walls Fall Down: William J. Seymour - Ministry Exchange (MX) - InterVarsity.org"
• "A founding minister of Pentecostalism, William J. Seymour << Africa-American Registry " ( )
• Across the Lines: Charles Parham's Contribution to the Inter-Racial ...

And even other groups evolved from others that people called the founders of WOF referenced. Others referenced Smith Wigglesworth in the same way Hagin and others did - and those groups grew into movements such as Bethel (with Kris Vallotton ) or IHOP( International House of Prayer) and other groups - as they alongside WOF all evolved out of the Latter Rain movement that began with Seymour and others. Even with other groups such as Assemblies of God, Lester Summural and Gordan Lindsay used to be well-fitted in that world until the work around their activities/doctrines which were not approved by the AOG led to them being kicked out to begin life on their own/start doing what they did....but their AOG Roots could never be ignored as impacting their theology on some level.


The point is that many in the WOF movement itself don't know the historical roots of where certain concepts come from even while denouncing others in WOF - and this is far from healthy, as things are way too diverse.

Some of this was discussed elsewhere as it concerns the diversity - as seen here:

There were many who sought to Reform the WOF camp--and consequently, differing WOF movements began....and in many places, there was civil war. The church I grew up, heavily WOF, was one that also did work with other camps outside of the Faith Movement---and we were always focused on whether what's taught agrees with the Word, be it in WOF or outside of it. Thus, I didn't grow up being trained to demonize all things WOF or to accept all things WOF either...and in talking with either former adherents of WOF or those still within it, I was often amazed at the reasons people were at where they were at. It's truly a case-by-case basis on many things, IMHO. And I'm glad for others who often noted how many of the things emphasized within the Faith Movement were really echos of what other movements had already done in differing ways. Especially as it concerns believing the Lord desires to empower His people and that the believer has been made righteous/in good standing with the Lord by the finished work of Christ.

If you'd like, there are some excellent books on the matter that do a good job of documenting the Faith Movement and showing the reasons why it is as it is.....and how to both acknowledge the Good and the Bad, as well as realizing that all movements go through seasons. One excellent read on the subject is entitled "Post Charismatic? : Where Are We Now? Where Have We Come From? Where Are We Going?" (discussed here and here) by Rob McAlpine...

Another excellent read that addresses the ways many teachings were taken into the wrong directions and how to address it is entitled God's Economy: Redefining the Health & Wealth Gospel by Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove (discussed here). Another excellent source of information on the subject of Word of Faith--as it concerns discussion on many of the things often critiqued in it and how some of the accusations have often been strawmen divorced from the context---is entitled "In Defense of the Word of Faith: An Apologetic Response to Encourage Charismatic Believers."

...There've been a good number of discussions over the years exmaining many of the main leaders within the faith movement, including those who disagreed with some of the mainstream ones and others who took differing routes. Be it the WOF that evolved at places like Tulsa or the WOF that shaped/developed in differing cultures such as the Hispanic, Asia/African world (if aware of others such as Joseph Prince and how the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement developed on that side of town when it comes to Singapore and the Gospel in Asia)

It can easily be pointed out where Capitalism in certain forms has caused others in the 3rd world to thrive (more in Theology Network - World Religions - Prosperity Theology if discussing how many from the 3rd world have been advocates of Prosperity theology - especially Asia when knowing the history of theology there ..how the Prosperity Theology came in Malaysia during an economic boom in the 1980s/1990s and elsewhere like after the People Power Revolution in the Philippines that set the stage for it spreading because of government focus on advancing physical/material well-being and not wishing to promote "victim mentalities" above self-help after coming out of a dictatorship/not having freedom to advance.....and this can be seen easily in the El Shaddai movement in the Philippines (as El Shaddai's popularity among the Filipino urban poor and aspiring middle classes was stunning) - a movement which was a ROMAN Catholic Charismatic manifestation of the prosperity message - more discussed best in Global Pentecostalism in the 21st Century and Everyday Life in Southeast Asia or Blessed: A History of the American Prosperity Gospel .....

And it's not hard to see it spreading especially in Africa when it comes to the physical issues they have to deal with and the neglect that has occurred for long times ..best discussed in In the Days of Caesar: Pentecostalism and Political Theology - they've also still retained cultural aspects like high belief in Spirit world, ancestor identification and the supernatural). One excellent teaching that addresses the ways many teachings were taken into the wrong directions and how to address it is entitled God's Economy: Redefining the Health & Wealth Gospel by Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove (discussed here). Seeing how culture often makes a difference in how certain concepts/teachings were applied in the faith movement---as others in lower economic communities alway have a focus on how the Lord is concerned with the physical and many churches actively went about addressing that by focusing on benevolence ministries as well as seeing how the Lord often spoke of kingdom of GOd impacting the physical (a teaching that's in line with what's known as Liberation Theology)--another excellent work to consider is "Righteous riches: the Word of faith movement in contemporary African American Religion.". ..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

When was the last time that someone said you were much appreciated and no doubt... all of your recent posts were timely and... planned by God before the foundations of the world was ever formed.

Awesome...Gxg (G²)

Thank you for the encouragement you shared with me, Bruh.

Glad to know that it is a blessing

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Good word brother. This sums it up well.

How so, Truthfrees, when sovereignty is a core of Word/Faith teaching? I can show you sovereignty teaching from Hagin, thru Copeland to Dollar, Seville, Winston, Duplantis and more. It is a part of God's character in our theology.

Why does the Bible say we are gods? - Kenneth Copeland Ministries
(speaking on the topic of men being little gods) --

About these verses Brother Copeland has said:

&#8220;You&#8217;re created in the same spiritual class as God (in His image&#8212;Genesis 1:26). The difference between you and me and God Almighty is that He&#8217;s sovereign, and we&#8217;re not. There are certain things in your life that you&#8217;re lord over, and nobody can do anything about those things but you. God will hold you responsible as an underlord of His in certain things in your household, certain things with your body. Now, your body belongs to Him&#8212;He paid for it. But if you don&#8217;t do something about it in His Name, there&#8217;s nothing going to be done about it. God, on the other hand, is sovereign. He doesn&#8217;t have anyone over Him, and there&#8217;s nobody He has to answer to. But there&#8217;s no such thing as a sovereign human being.&#8221;​

You see, the Open Theist denies this (or they redefine what sovereign means). If you are Word/Faith you simply do not dismiss sovereignty.

 

[now faith]

Gxg[G2]
Amazing post!
Bless God for your anointing!

It was Fred Price way back that influenced the way I study God's Word today.
At the beginning of service you would here Evidence!

I knew who was teaching and would stop what I was doing and listen.
He would run out of time but still quote :we walk by faith not by sight!

I am a fan of Fred JR.as well,his teaching is spot on.

Thank You for your post.

 

[now faith]

Perhaps it's just me...

But what's interesting is how often I see others saying that Smith Wigglesworth was one of the founders within WOF and yet they will leave out others who emphasized the same things as he did - as well as being the founders of the Pentecostal/Charismatic world itself from which WOF sprung from.


Specifically, I'm reminded of how many in WOF didn't even know who people were like William Seymour - even though the founders of WOF celebrated him.

• A Healer In the House? - Vinson Synan | HopeFaithPrayer

Again, healing as being a part of the Atonement was VERY much prominent before anyone such as Hagin and others came along....

For more info, one can go online and investigate the following under their respective titles:

• William J. Seymour: Peril and Possibilities for a New Era

• "Let the Walls Fall Down: William J. Seymour - Ministry Exchange (MX) - InterVarsity.org"
• "A founding minister of Pentecostalism, William J. Seymour << Africa-American Registry " ( )
• Across the Lines: Charles Parham's Contribution to the Inter-Racial ...

And even other groups evolved from others that people called the founders of WOF referenced. Others referenced Smith Wigglesworth in the same way Hagin and others did - and those groups grew into movements such as Bethel (with Kris Vallotton ) or IHOP( International House of Prayer) and other groups - as they alongside WOF all evolved out of the Latter Rain movement that began with Seymour and others.


The point is that many in the WOF movement itself don't know the historical roots of where certain concepts come from even while denouncing others in WOF - and this is far from healthy, as things are way too diverse.

Some of this was discussed elsewhere as it concerns the diversity - as seen here:

​

Yes I have listened to people speak about significant events in Christian History and neglect, Azusa Street.
I am of the opinion that William Seymour and the Azusa street revival was the most significant event in Christianity in the 20th century.

 

[hhodgson]

Yes I have listened to people speak about significant events in Christian History and neglect, Azusa Street.
I am of the opinion that William Seymour and the Azusa street revival was the most significant event in Christianity in the 20th century.

Right on Brother...
​

 

[Truthfrees]

Hi GXG,
I did sign the MJ sof thread a long time ago before I started posting. Check it out.

To GXG and ABM, check this out.

This is a great example. I've listened for years as Wommack makes points in his teaching tapes/streaming that point out errors in mainline WoF teaching. It's how he knows the truth that has been shown to him. On any of these subjects he may be right and he may not.

Originally Posted by ABlessedMan

Well, if we stand staunch for the rulebook, then perhaps he doesn't go toe to toe with some in here as far as what is considered Word/Faith. For that matter, if you go that staunchly for the rulebook you might be able to get me tossed too since I often become critical of our leaders.

Of course if we did that we'd be reduced to about 6 posters, 3 of which don't regularly come in. That'd be fun and informative.
​

Originally Posted by ABlessedMan

We can see this type of error in Kenneth Copeland's teaching that when man bowed his knee to Satan we gave Satan our authority and effectively "locked God out of the earth" leaving God needing a man to ask (allow) Him back in (that man being Abraham).
​

http://www.christianforums.com/t7848188/#post66631760 - "The issue I see is that there is much out of balance in our movement. Especially the last decade or so."

These ABM posts clearly criticize wof. This is not a disagreement between wof. This is someone with a wof shield making clearly critical statements against wof.

There's nothing wrong with the wof movement.

The blame will have to be placed on the individual, not the movement.

Is it WOF's fault giving and expecting a return (aka giving to get) works for me and others but not for you?

There's no statement by Copeland against Hagin, or Hagin against Copeland.

Just unconfirmed unsanctioned stories.

You're putting Copeland's name where Hagin didn't. Show me where Hagin said something about Copeland. You can't find it, because Hagin never spoke against anyone, or listened to stories against anyone.

GXG, I can understand your loyalty to ABM and his interpretation of scripture. I hope you can understand my loyalty to our founding teachers and their interpretation of scripture.

I'm wof, and have no problem with wof. Those who have problems with wof shouldn't be sharing their problems here in the wof forum.

Criticizing wof in the wof forum is not wanted or allowed. If the criticism stops all will be well again in our forum.

Let the happy wof have a happy forum.

Let the unhappy wof take their unhappiness outside the camp, and not share it with the rest of us.

Why do we have to listen to your unhappiness with wof?

I know ABM thinks I'm out to get him, but he's really by his own confession trying to correct wof. I'm simply asking him to stop it.

Please don't spread your unhappiness.

"Brethren, whatever is true, whatever is worthy of reverence and is honorable and seemly, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely and lovable, whatever is kind and winsome and gracious, if there is any virtue and excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think on and weigh and take account of these things [fix your minds on them]." - Philippians 4:8

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hi GXG,
I did sign the MJ sof thread a long time ago before I started posting. C

Hi Truth,

The poll was what you had to sign into - as seen here. And I saw where you came in again asking on the issue - that should help. To clarify, where you claimed I was only Oriental Orthodox - had you followed the link I gave, you'd understand I am also Messianic and have been so for years. It's in the signature....

You, nonetheless, are NOT allowed to teach or debate in the MJ Forum if you're not Messianic. That is a basic in the rules and the SOP that the MJ SoF thread linked to noted this. This is something other Messianics have noted when it came to how gracious others did or didn't chose to be - and in your case with the active teaching, folks let things slide. A couple of months earlier and it would've been reported/handled rather quickly.

And to note, there are not guarantees that it wouldn't be reported the next time it were to occurred if you chose to avoid what the SOP in the MJ section said since others signing the thread were told to do so since they would be held to account.

These ABM posts clearly criticize wof. This is not a disagreement between wof. This is someone with a wof shield making clearly critical statements against wof.


There's nothing wrong with the wof movement.

Truth,

It has already been said that nothing AMB or others agreeing with him have said is really different from standard practice done in the Faith Movement. Hagin already did so repeatedly, especially in his book entitled "The Midas Touch" where several teachings from Copeland and others I grew up with (i.e. Dollar, Duplantis, etc.) were noted to be extremes/abberational in regards to the original concepts Hagin espoused


Like I already said,
Hagin already spoke against Copeland rather forecefully in his book "The Midas Touch" - that is beyond question since it was well known in the Faith Movement. People who value Hagin have no issue simply reading what he said - knowing that he respected Copeland as a spiritual son and yet knew there were clear disagreements that had to be addressed

For anyone wanting more, one can go here

Dollar actually challenged others in the WOF movement when it came to issues. Fredrick Price called out Hagin when it came to espousing teachings from the Dake Bible (which was born in racial segregation and advocated for segregation), which was an issue very controversial in the 90s since many WOF ministries used the Dake Bible (more shared here ) - and thus, one needs to give EVIDENCE that what ABM is doing is different from what other WOF leaders have already done.

The same dynamics occurred 10 yrs ago and WOF of differing backgrounds had good discussions on where they diverged in thought and how differing interpretations impacted their ideologies. No WOF teacher has EVER been in 100% agreement with all that another did and to claim such would not truly be in line with the Faith Movement.

And by claiming ABM to NOT be WOF as you did so, you do realize that you have done EXACTLY the same thing that you are accusing him of. You already called him and other WOFers disagreeing with you "Pseudo crowd" - that is a CLEAR matter of battling against other WOF and t could easily be said that you are having a "wof Shield" if one wanted to.

But thus far, nothing you've said really showed what Hagin or any of the other founders actually advocated - nor did it address their actions in what they actually said.

Is it WOF's fault giving and expecting a return (aka giving to get) works for me and others but not for you?

Seeing that I have never said that I am against the concept of expecting to recieve when one gives, that is unfortunately your own claim and one that cannot be backed up in any way whatsoever. If you're going to say something of me, respectfully, I'd appreciated it if you would please give reference - for I agree with what Hagin noted plainly in the Midas Touch when it comes to not giving with wrong motives. This was shared before elsewhere in places such as #139 and #128

And as I already said, I grew up seeing the power of giving in action when my mother and I were by ourselves. We understand the concept of what II Kings 4-5 speaks on when it came to God's provisions for widows and I Kings 17 with the Lord providing for women/their children However, claiming that others are going to be cursed if they don't give to a ministry asking for funding is not what Hagin ever stated

Show me where Hagin said something about Copeland. You can't find it, because Hagin never spoke against anyone, or listened to stories against anyone.

As others have already said, the Midas Touch already addressed this since the meeting set up by Hagin in the early 2000s (after the Book came out) was based entirely on addressing Copeland and others who went counter to what Hagin had said. There is no avoiding that before he died in 2003, the revered father of the Word-Faith movement corrected his spiritual sons for going to extremes with their message of prosperity.

​

That said, you've not shown me where Hagin did not cover teachings in his book which were checked even as Copeland still supported them. You've not shown where Copeland agreed 100% with the Midas Touch book - and you haven't even shown where Fredrick Price did not call out Hagin for his support of the Dake Bible. There are several other things besides this - but avoiding issues do not make them go away.

And as said before, if you want to believe something outside of what Hagin said in "The Midas Touch" when he called out a lot of extremes in the Faith Movement, that's your choice. I choose to believe otherwise and support Hagin in his choices and what he addressed.

GXG, I can understand your loyalty to ABM and his interpretation of scripture. I hope you can understand my loyalty to our founding teachers

Truth..

Loyalty is rather moot, as I've already had disagreements with ABM a number of times and we've had debates on the issue. One such place is the thread entitled Prosperity through Dying: Death/Aging BEFORE the Fall...& Seeing if it was a Blessing and another was on the subject of OSAS - and the other was on the issue of tithing, as seen in the thread Sabbath rest, tithes and such And of course, there's also politics - which we have disagreed on in multiple respects as it concerns the president...more in the thread entitled This may offend many and It's a wrap

More could be said on that issue - but on the subject, friendship/respect between brothers in Christ is all that matters. It is because of that focus and our mutual growing up in the Faith Movement that we are able to work through issues and keep it moving.....and that's a beautiful things, Truth. He has studied the founders, as have I growing up with them. Truth is what matters when it comes to seeing what they said accurately and staying faithful to it..

This goes back to the issue of founders - as others in WOF have already said that those you deem founders were NEVER the sole founders. I grew up with T.L Osborn and Lester Sumrall (with others under him such as Pastor Jason Kerr) - and yet you don't speak of them as quickly as you'll reference Hagin. I also grew up with others like Joseph Garlington and Fredrick Price - but I don't hear you speaking of them as founders, even though they disagreed with other leaders in the Faith Movement....and by your logic, they would not be WOF if they had ANY disagreement.

I am sorry - but I am going to go by what the original teachings said and will be thankful for where it blessed me greatly. I understand your zeal to go by what you feel are the original teachings - and that's not something that's bad. What others have been noting is that not everything disagreeing with your opinion on what early WOF groups said is automatically a matter of not having a desire to walk with the founders of the Faith Movement. That is essentially a matter of assuming only those agreeing with you can love those who founded the Faith Movement....and that would be limiting.

Not everyone agreed with Copeland, for example, when he gave POLITICAL support to Mike Huckabee since others in the Faith Movement chose different political cannidates. But at the end of the day, what mattered was whether or not you're moving forward by Faith and promoting the Gospel.

I'm wof, and have no problem with wof. Those who have problems with wof shouldn't be sharing their problems here in the wof forum.

That's cool that you feel you are WOF - but you already showed you had issue with other WOF when you claimed they were NOT WOF. Again, You already called ABM and other WOFers disagreeing with you "Pseudo crowd" - that is a CLEAR matter of battling against other WOF.

They could easily note of you that those having issue with WOF should not be sharing here - and as it is, the fact that you're sharing AGAINST THEM in the forum is a matter of sharing problems with WOF.

Moreover, in speaking on the forum itself, it is still an issue that you never apologized for actively TEACHING in the MJ Forum against the rules that the MJ SoF said....and yet in this instance, you chose to go against other WOF members you disagreed with in claiming them (even with their icons) to NOT be WOF. That is not consistent

Criticizing wof in the wof forum is not wanted or allowed. If the criticism stops all will be well again in our forum.

You already criticized other WOF when you claimed them to be pseudo - and as they already showed directly from the founders (in their own words) where they discussed issues within the camp, there's no real evidence saying they were wrong.

As long as there is a willingness to walk in offense and not allow others to either discuss with one another in brotherhood/fellowship OR encourage each other, there will not be peace. One has to actively choose to do that - and that was occurring years ago.

Let the happy wof have a happy forum.

Let the unhappy wof take their unhappiness outside the camp, and not share it with the rest of us.

Respectfully, Those who are happy have already been discussing - without your permission, but on the same token it could be said that the MJs on the MJ forum could be discussing without you being present interjecting against the rules.

Speaking in terms of "us" can be odd when the reality is that there has been no clear evidence showing who "us" are - or that "us" (as you see them) are ALL of those who've been present on the boards....including those here years before you arrived. Speaking on who is unhappy, IMHO, the one I see the most vocal on unhappiness seems to be you at the moment - and from the outside looking in, it is making other WOFers unhappy since they cannot have discussion without you claiming they are not WOF the moment they disagree with you. That is unfortunate, but it is what it is - and other WOF have not agreed with you in the majority. Thus, for the sake of peace, why not listen to what others say and not insist that it is your way of WOF or the highway?

Why do we have to listen to your unhappiness with wof?

Seeing that I really don't have unhappiness with the Faith movement in how it was intended, it is again your own claim without real evidence. There's no need saying things that cannot be verified - and nothing I said was opposite of what others in the Faith Movement already said. Thus, if you're not happy with that, then it could easily be said that you're not happy with others in WOF whenever they share their thoughts and those thoughts don't line up with you.

If you have a real issue, by all means bring out the DIRECT quotes from the founders and then discuss. Focusing on others is not going to deal with the issue - and with that said, until you actually deal with what others have said, I am sadly going to have to place you on ignore.

I know ABM thinks I'm out to get him, but he's really by his own confession trying to correct wof. I'm simply asking him to stop it.

Please don't spread your unhappiness.

You already corrected other WOF by calling him and others "pseudo WOF" - and finding fault with all disagreeing with you.

You do exactly what you claim others are doing - and as said before, until it stops, I am going to simply ignore it as conversation with others commences

Proverbs 17:14
Starting a quarrel is like breaching a dam; so drop the matter before a dispute breaks out

Romans 12:16-17
16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[c] Do not be conceited. 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

Ephesians 4:4-6
Unity and Maturity in the Body of Christ
4 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.​