Anti-Potheads

[Protocol11]

This topic is about pot, and only pot. Not coke, caffine, heroin, cigs, or booze.

I invite anyone who is against any use of pot for any reason to join, and give their reasons why.

I conceede that too much pot use can ruin your life. Just like eating too much can litterly make it grow into the couch, like in that anti-pot add, Nip-Tuck, and a real life story in which just that actually happened.

I believe recreational and medicinal use of pot is moral, justified, and should be legal. Pot does have medicinal applications. I don't believe this can be denied, and I will happily set straight those who are mistaken in that area.

Lets try and keep anecdotal arguements to a minimum. I can't verify your stories, and you can't verify mine.

Poll is multiple choice, so choose the options you feel best represent you, and the votes are not public, so feel free to be honest.

 

[Protocol11]

I needed 50 posts, so here it is!

 

[Ectezus]

Here in The Netherlands it's probably the easiest to get pot. If I wanted to I could smoke myself to death and legally too.
However I've only tried it twice to know the 'experience' but hardly felt an impact, but then again I didn't use all that much since I don't normally smoke to begin with.

Personally I think it's a bit sad and ancient to deliberately consume toxics/drugs that cloud your judgment. Basically it makes you laugh at stupid jokes that aren't funny. I guess that makes pot highly useful if you have unfunny friends that can't formulate proper jokes.

I'm all for medicinal drugs. Maybe even hard drugs if regulated.
I don't have a problem with soft drugs (if not addictive and/or harmful) being legal here. Although I do have to say that it's mostly the 'losers' that smoke it regularly. Not sure if pot attracts that group or the pot is the cause for it though. I'm guessing the former.

- Ectezus

 

[Protocol11]

Here in The Netherlands it's probably the easiest to get pot. If I wanted to I could smoke myself to death and legally too.

You can't smoke yourself to death. I've been to Amsterdam, and I've tried, literally. Planning another trip over there at the end of this year, in fact.

However I've only tried it twice to know the 'experience' but hardly felt an impact, but then again I didn't use all that much since I don't normally smoke to begin with.

They say the first time you smoke, you don't get high. Maybe you should buy a G and really try.

Personally I think it's a bit sad and ancient to deliberately consume toxics/drugs that cloud your judgment. Basically it makes you laugh at stupid jokes that aren't funny. I guess that makes pot highly useful if you have unfunny friends that can't formulate proper jokes.

Why do you say it clouds your judgement. When I smoke, I think outside the box. It opens my mind to new, liberating and intelligent thoughts. I have a problem I can't solve, I get high, and I solve it or I solve it better than I did when I wasn't high.

I'm all for medicinal drugs. Maybe even hard drugs if regulated.
I don't have a problem with soft drugs (if not addictive and/or harmful) being legal here. Although I do have to say that it's mostly the 'losers' that smoke it regularly. Not sure if pot attracts that group or the pot is the cause for it though. I'm guessing the former.

Is Micheal Phelps a loser? I just read that MMA fighter Nick Diaz is a regular toker, and he could break most people in half without breaking a sweat. I'm trying to keep anecdotals out of this, but I know insanely intelligent people that smoke, as well as people who own their own companies, and make 6 figures a year. I also know morons that smoke, but with every social group, you have your successful people, and your dolts.

 

[Ectezus]

They say the first time you smoke, you don't get high. Maybe you should buy a G and really try.

I've tried it to get to know the feeling and I've experienced that. I know the effects it causes and I consider it a waste of money to pay to get smoke into my lungs. I honestly don't see why I should "really try" to get high. Like I said, from my experience it's mostly only junkies and losers that smoke regularly. And I don't want to be associated with either of those.

Is Micheal Phelps a loser?

Michael Phelps isn't a regular smoker. Lets not play the name game. You won't win this.

Why do you say it clouds your judgement. When I smoke, I think outside the box. It opens my mind to new, liberating and intelligent thoughts. I have a problem I can't solve, I get high, and I solve it or I solve it better than I did when I wasn't high.

I say it 'clouds your judgment' because it alters your normal way of thinking. You can give it another term if you want too. You say it makes you think outside the box. I guess it depends on how comfortable you are with the "inside of your box". For me it solves all my problems. It's logical and efficient. I don't want to smoke pot to get outside my box because I don't have the particular need to escape reality in order to solve problems.


- Ectezus

 

[Vehementi Dominus]

Why do you say it clouds your judgement. When I smoke, I think outside the box. It opens my mind to new, liberating and intelligent thoughts. I have a problem I can't solve, I get high, and I solve it or I solve it better than I did when I wasn't high.

THC's been shown to activate areas of the brain which otherwise seem to lay dormant.

There's also an area of the brain that appears to be specifically evolved to accept THC.

 

[Everlasting33]

I am against pot. I understand why people would smoke and I don't have a problem if it relieves extreme physical pain.

I simply want to limit, as much as possible, any and all psychological and physiological addictions. Besides, it isnt exactly healthy and there are more constructive ways to spend my time.

 

[Protocol11]

Michael Phelps isn't a regular smoker. Lets not play the name game. You won't win this.

And you know this how?

And about the name game, there's a plethora of Hollywood actors who smoke that can keep me going for while.

I say it 'clouds your judgment' because it alters your normal way of thinking.

Except that one does not equal the other. Just because your mental state is altered, doesn't mean that it's diminished.

You can give it another term if you want too.

Different terms have completely different meanings. We have to be precise with the ones we choose.

You say it makes you think outside the box. I guess it depends on how comfortable you are with the "inside of your box". For me it solves all my problems. It's logical and efficient. I don't want to smoke pot to get outside my box because I don't have the particular need to escape reality in order to solve problems.

There's another common term, "escaping reality". I don't smoke a go float off in a yellow submarine. That's escaping reality. LSD is an escape from reality.

I get high, I am still very much grounded to the Earth. It's an enhancer, not an escape. It makes things more enjoyable, more pleasent, more sensual. It doesn't take me out of the moment or make me forget about my life and what I need to do.

Now with some people, it does those things. You let it do those things, and it becomes an escape, and you do it just to escape, then that's not good. Not that the occasional escape isn't bad. Getting high is quick remedy for boredom.

 

[Bombila]

It's a much more harmless substance than alcohol, and probably less addictive than sugar. It makes a cheap and benign relaxer for people who may need a little release at the end of a day or a week. It's ridiculous that it is illegal in many places.

Ectezus, your portrayal is harsh and narrow: marijuana is not used only by 'losers' and 'junkies' - in fact I seriously doubt the majority of heroin addicts are much interested in pot.

A broad spectrum of people, lawyers to labourers, use marijuana to relax and mildly disinhibit, just as others use a couple glasses of wine or a few beers.

 

[Protocol11]

I simply want to limit, as much as possible, any and all psychological and physiological addictions. Besides, it isnt exactly healthy and there are more constructive ways to spend my time.

Finally, here we go.

What gives you the right to legislate what I can and can not put into my body? Do you believe you have the right to legislate my sex life, my personal beliefs, my hobbies or any other aspect of my personal life that has no ill effect on anyone around me?

Do you realize that after nearly 40 years, drugs are as common as ever? Even the DEA admitts they are cheaper, and more potent than when they were first banned.

In countries like Holland, pot use among teens and adults is lower than in the states. Over there, you can buy from a coffeeshop. Wanna know why? Because it gets boring after a while.

When I went over there, the Hotel Brian on Singel canal, right on the red light district, the desk manager, a guy named Brent was essentially, an illegal immigrant. He got the job because he spoke english. He came from Oakland, and told me for the first year, he did everything. All the drugs, nightlife, bars, cafes, everything. After a year, it just got boring. It got...regular. Now all he does is roll some hash with some tobacco and get high. "Wisdom in excess" is what he told me. That's how it works over there.

As for the health issue, there are many delivery systems for cannabis. Burning the plant is only one of a half dozen ways to consume pot.

 

[Ectezus]

I get high, I am still very much grounded to the Earth. It's an enhancer, not an escape. It makes things more enjoyable, more pleasent, more sensual.

An enhancer but not an escape huh? That almost sounds like a paradox.
If your reality without pot is not as enjoyable, pleasent and sensual then yes it's an escape from the actual reality.
Just because the new perceived reality after smoking pot is a more pleasant one does not mean it's enhanced. It's altered. You can argue that it helps you, maybe in times of stress, sure, but fact is it alters your view and thus your judgment of your actual reality.

- Ectezus

 

[Everlasting33]

Finally, here we go.

What gives you the right to legislate what I can and can not put into my body? Do you believe you have the right to legislate my sex life, my personal beliefs, my hobbies or any other aspect of my personal life that has no ill effect on anyone around me?

Do you realize that after nearly 40 years, drugs are as common as ever? Even the DEA admitts they are cheaper, and more potent than when they were first banned.

In countries like Holland, pot use among teens and adults is lower than in the states. Over there, you can buy from a coffeeshop. Wanna know why? Because it gets boring after a while.

When I went over there, the Hotel Brian on Singel canal, right on the red light district, the desk manager, a guy named Brent was essentially, an illegal immigrant. He got the job because he spoke english. He came from Oakland, and told me for the first year, he did everything. All the drugs, nightlife, bars, cafes, everything. After a year, it just got boring. It got...regular. Now all he does is roll some hash with some tobacco and get high. "Wisdom in excess" is what he told me. That's how it works over there.

As for the health issue, there are many delivery systems for cannabis. Burning the plant is only one of a half dozen ways to consume pot.

Just my opinion. I don't have any control over what others put in their bodies but you never really argued any of my points anyway.

 

[Ben-AG]

Just some things to think about...

"Research has shown that marijuana’s adverse impact on learning and memory can last for days or weeks after the acute effects of the drug wear off.2 As a result, someone who smokes marijuana every day may be functioning at a suboptimal intellectual level all of the time."

"High doses of marijuana can produce an acute psychotic reaction, and research suggests that in vulnerable individuals, marijuana use may be a factor that increases risk for the disease."

"Numerous studies have shown marijuana smoke to contain carcinogens and to be an irritant to the lungs. In fact, marijuana smoke contains 50 to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than tobacco smoke. Marijuana users usually inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers do, which further increases the lungs’ exposure to carcinogenic smoke. Marijuana smokers show dysregulated growth of epithelial cells in their lung tissue, which could lead to cancer."

InfoFacts - Marijuana

I realize that most problems arise with abuse, but I attempted to extrapulate problems that happen even without abusing the drug. Also, you should know, the part where it says "could lead to cancer" has not been substantiated.

 

[chingchang]

Finally, here we go.

What gives you the right to legislate what I can and can not put into my body? Do you believe you have the right to legislate my sex life, my personal beliefs, my hobbies or any other aspect of my personal life that has no ill effect on anyone around me?

Do you realize that after nearly 40 years, drugs are as common as ever? Even the DEA admitts they are cheaper, and more potent than when they were first banned.

In countries like Holland, pot use among teens and adults is lower than in the states. Over there, you can buy from a coffeeshop. Wanna know why? Because it gets boring after a while.

When I went over there, the Hotel Brian on Singel canal, right on the red light district, the desk manager, a guy named Brent was essentially, an illegal immigrant. He got the job because he spoke english. He came from Oakland, and told me for the first year, he did everything. All the drugs, nightlife, bars, cafes, everything. After a year, it just got boring. It got...regular. Now all he does is roll some hash with some tobacco and get high. "Wisdom in excess" is what he told me. That's how it works over there.

As for the health issue, there are many delivery systems for cannabis. Burning the plant is only one of a half dozen ways to consume pot.

I'll add that we must consider why it is illegal. If one looks into the history of the illegalization of pot...it becomes quite absurd that it is illegal.

CC

 

[Protocol11]

An enhancer but not an escape huh? That almost sounds like a paradox.

It's a fine line.

If your reality without pot is not as enjoyable, pleasent and sensual then yes it's an escape from the actual reality.

No, I still live in reality, I just live in it with a different state of mind, a different perception of it. Like when you wear blueblockers, it makes everything look different, and pretty cool if you're into that style. But you still see what's there, you just perceive it differently.

Just because the new perceived reality after smoking pot is a more pleasant one does not mean it's enhanced. It's altered.

It's altered, and I consider it enhanced.

You can argue that it helps you, maybe in times of stress, sure, but fact is it alters your view and thus your judgment of your actual reality.

I agree it alters your view, not sure about judgement. And even if it does alter both, who says it alters them in a bad way? It's not like booze where you want to do something stupid and crazy because you're drunk and it sounds like a jolly good time.

Just my opinion. I don't have any control over what others put in their bodies but you never really argued any of my points anyway.

That's a cop out, I addressed your all your arguement pertinent to this topic.

"Research has shown that marijuana’s adverse impact on learning and memory can last for days or weeks after the acute effects of the drug wear off.2 As a result, someone who smokes marijuana every day may be functioning at a suboptimal intellectual level all of the time."

"High doses of marijuana can produce an acute psychotic reaction, and research suggests that in vulnerable individuals, marijuana use may be a factor that increases risk for the disease."

"Numerous studies have shown marijuana smoke to contain carcinogens and to be an irritant to the lungs. In fact, marijuana smoke contains 50 to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than tobacco smoke. Marijuana users usually inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers do, which further increases the lungs’ exposure to carcinogenic smoke. Marijuana smokers show dysregulated growth of epithelial cells in their lung tissue, which could lead to cancer."

InfoFacts - Marijuana

You just quoted a "study" by a department of the federal government. Do you really think anything the government has to say about pot has any credibility whatsoever? You'ld get more honest research out of High Times. Hell, the fed won't even recognize the clear and indisputable medicinal properties of marijuana. Might as well quote Phillip-Morris study about how cigs don't cause cancer, lighters do.

I realize that most problems arise with abuse, but I attempted to extrapulate problems that happen even without abusing the drug. Also, you should know, the part where it says "could lead to cancer" has not been substantiated.

It's a government study. It's not research, or science, it's propaganda. There are probably little grains of truth in there, somewhere. But by and large, it's all lies.

I'll add that we must consider why it is illegal. If one looks into the history of the illegalization of pot...it becomes quite absurd that it is illegal.

Absolutely. I don't toss the "racism" charge around too often, but when you read Anslinger's comments about how pot makes black men want to rape white women, the racist origins of pot prohibition are so clear a blind man could see them.

Hell, why do we call it marijuana? Does that sound like an english word to you? Does a "j" sound like an "h" in any other english word? No, we call it that because the government waged a propaganda war and tied it to the disliked Mexican migrant workers.

 

[quatona]

I have smoked several times and I never really liked it. A couple of times I downright disliked it.

 

[quatona]

And about the name game, there's a plethora of Hollywood actors who smoke that can keep me going for while.

Considering my opinion about most Hollywood actors I do not really find that a particularly strong pro-smoking argument.In fact, it would rather be a good explanatory excuse.

 

[Ben-AG]

You just quoted a "study" by a department of the federal government. Do you really think anything the government has to say about pot has any credibility whatsoever? You'ld get more honest research out of High Times. Hell, the fed won't even recognize the clear and indisputable medicinal properties of marijuana. Might as well quote Phillip-Morris study about how cigs don't cause cancer, lighters do.

It's a government study. It's not research, or science, it's propaganda. There are probably little grains of truth in there, somewhere. But by and large, it's all lies.

That quite possibly was one of the most closed-minded responses I have heard in awhile. Ignoring the fact that the study provides 11 justifying sources and is published on the National Insitute of Health's website, am I simply suppose to take your word for it and believe it is all a lie?

Until you provide a credible source that asserts that the usage of marijuana in all aspects is safe, I think not.


I have also taken the time to acquire primary articles regarding the risks of marijuana from other sources so as to ease your uneasiness with the information provided from a "biased government." I hope you will consider them.

Respiratory Effects of Marijuana and Tobacco Use in a U.S. Sample
-The impact of marijuana smoking on respiratory health has some significant similarities to that of tobacco smoking. Efforts to prevent and reduce marijuana use, such as advising patients to quit and providing referrals for support and assistance, may have substantial public health benefits associated with decreased respiratory health problems.
-Self-reported respiratory symptoms included chronic bronchitis, frequent phlegm, shortness of breath, frequent wheezing, chest sounds without a cold, and pneumonia. A medical exam also provided an overall chest finding and a measure of reduced pulmonary functioning. Marijuana use was associated with respiratory symptoms of chronic bronchitis (P =.02), coughing on most days (P =.001), phlegm production (P =.0005), wheezing (P <.0001), and chest sounds without a cold (P =.02).

Neuropsychological functioning in adolescent marijuana users: Subtle deficits detectable after a month of abstinence
-Neuropsychological assessments were conducted after >23 days of monitored abstinence. After controlling for lifetime alcohol use and depressive symptoms, adolescent marijuana users demonstrated slower psychomotor speed (p < .05), and poorer complex attention (p < .04), story memory (p < .04), and planning and sequencing ability (p < .001) compared with controls

Effects of marijuana on neurophysiological signals of working and episodic memory
-The results suggest that marijuana disrupted both sustained and transient attention processes resulting in impaired memory task performance. In subjects most affected by marijuana a pronounced ERP difference between previously studied words and new distracter words was also reduced, suggesting disruption of neural mechanisms underlying memory for recent study episodes.

[Adverse effects of marijuana] [Rev Prat. 2005] - PubMed Result
-When admitted in an emergency unit, young patients often present acute neurological effects of smoked marijuana. Other chronic adverse effects of marijuana are probably underestimated: postural syncope, arteritis, chronic bronchitis, amnesia. Marijuana may trigger a myocardial infarction and have a vasospastic effect. Marijuana has impairing effects on driving ability. Smoked marijuana is a potential respiratory tract carcinogen.
* Sorry could not post full article due to copyright infringements- You must subscribe to view the full article. The abstract explains the results.

The adverse health effects of cannabis use: What a...[Int J Drug Policy. 2009] - PubMed Result
-The evidence strongly suggests that cannabis can adversely affect some users, especially adolescents who initiate use early and young adults who become regular users. These adverse effects probably include increased risks of: motor vehicle crashes, the development of cannabis dependence, impaired respiratory function, cardiovascular disease, psychotic symptoms, and adverse outcomes of adolescent development, namely, poorer educational outcomes and an increased likelihood of using other illicit drugs.
* Sorry could not post full article due to copyright infringements- You must subscribe to view the full article. The abstract explains the results.


Hope this helps.

-Ben

 

[Ben-AG]

Considering my opinion about most Hollywood actors I do not really find that a particularly strong pro-smoking argument.In fact, it would rather be a good explanatory excuse.

I agree.

 

[Ectezus]

No, I still live in reality, I just live in it with a different state of mind, a different perception of it.

Different state of mind + different perception on reality = not your actual reality. It's the reality you perceive in a different way with a different state of mind.
You said it yourself, pot makes your life more enjoyable and pleasant, so while you're under the influence of pot, your view on your life will be different. It's really that simple.

It's altered, and I consider it enhanced.

You can consider it enhanced, I'm just telling you it's not. And if you look at the research, without a government paranoid pothead state of mind you would see the same. Denial is the first symptom, did you know?
Something that makes you feel happy does not automatically make it enhanced.

- Ectezus