What about the differences between chimps and humans?

[DamianWarS]

So omnipresence could get thrown off of your checklist if you’re not tying yourself to the Biblical definition of God and you’re just thinking of it using logic, however on the flip side if you are tied to the Bible then it’s always possible that something could be fuzzy in the meaning and that the Biblical writers were actually trying to teach the concept of supraposition.

If Pantheism is true then omnipresence makes total sense, but for Pantheism to be true I could just use the words God and reality interchangeably, but does Panentheism imply conscious decision making by that reality at all? If not it’s just Atheism lol (just passive laws of nature). I feel like I haven’t thought my belief out enough to definitely say what I am. I say Deist because for things to come forth from God, but for those things to be separate from God, it seems like conscious decisions are being made to cause such a separation of things into two separate categories. If God is just free flowing reality without any decision making capacity (which to me just implies atheism) then why even make anything outside of itself at all? And I would only prefer Panentheism over Atheism if Panentheism implies that the universe/God actually makes decisions sometimes.

However Pantheism just sounds logically absurd lol because A would then equal B and C and D, etc, yet A is clearly different than B, and C, etc. I just try to think about decision making, period. Does ultimate reality make decisions or not is my biggest question. For me omnipotent and eternal is obvious, but does that omnipotent & eternal thing actually think and make decisions, or just produce organisms that do?

So at first glance it sounds like your basic definition of God doesn’t tie you to a personal agent, however, why create anything then? That’s a decision. So your definition demands that God is a conscious agent then?

This seems better described in a panentheistic model over a pantheistic model.

I get pulled into Deism with the problem of evil, and how relative morals look from the viewpoints of different species. For a lion a lion eating a gazelle is good, for a gazelle a lion eating a gazelle is bad. God with a capital G might also care less about what gods with a lower case g do. Earth might be highly influenced by a god or gods, and God could care less. (G)od might just enjoy the circle of life running its course. Lower case gods just being more powerful entities in that grand circle of life. As if we are tiny fish but gods are whales.

Most of this seems to be driven by mythology which tends to be predeposed to separating all forms of power and calling them each a god. Ie. The sun = the sun god, the moon = the moon God, thunder = the thunder God etc.... Each of these can described natural processes and ultimately from the source of one not many.

 

[Bradskii]

Panentheism seems to be where I'm leaning or at least the easiest to reconcile but with a note that it's vehemently not pantheistic

Does that make me an apanentheist?

 

[dlamberth]

Your avatar reminds me of a map in a video game:

Your gif reminds me of are the various icons for Mother Earth. It's called the Tree of Life.

 

[dlamberth]

And I would only prefer Panentheism over Atheism if Panentheism implies that the universe/God actually makes decisions sometimes.

There are all sorts and levels and kinds of Panenthesim. If your pull is of a God who thinks and makes decisions and does stuff to the physical world, than go to that God. A person can do that and still be a Panentheist.

Edited to add: Christianity, for instance, has all sorts of examples of the Faithful doing just that.

 

[Vap841]

Most of this seems to be driven by mythology which tends to be predeposed to separating all forms of power and calling them each a god. Ie. The sun = the sun god, the moon = the moon God, thunder = the thunder God etc.... Each of these can described natural processes and ultimately from the source of one not many.

Sorry that wasn’t clear by that I just meant what a primitive civilization would call god(s) if their world was being influenced by a highly advanced civilization. Like some of the Fermi Paradox theories where Earth is like a cosmic zoo for an advanced civilization, so God wouldn’t care, God would allow Earth to falsely go on thinking that these gods were really God. And if they ever did visit, like statues that you see with their elongated heads or whatever they might look like, ancient peoples would make gods out of them (and God wouldn’t care that everyone is fooled).

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Hey, we have 'Christmas in July' down here.


Hey, we have 'Xmas in July' down here.

View attachment 301972

That sounds weird to someone who spent his childhood Yuletides wistfully looking out the window wondering when it was going to snow...

 

[Bradskii]

That sounds weird to someone who spent his childhood Yuletides wistfully looking out the window wondering when it was going to snow...

It took a lot of getting used to.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

So omnipresence could get thrown off of your checklist if you’re not tying yourself to the Biblical definition of God and you’re just thinking of it using logic, however on the flip side if you are tied to the Bible then it’s always possible that something could be fuzzy in the meaning and that the Biblical writers were actually trying to teach the concept of supraposition.

If Pantheism is true then omnipresence makes total sense, but for Pantheism to be true I could just use the words God and reality interchangeably, but does Panentheism imply conscious decision making by that reality at all? If not it’s just Atheism lol (just passive laws of nature). I feel like I haven’t thought my belief out enough to definitely say what I am. I say Deist because for things to come forth from God, but for those things to be separate from God, it seems like conscious decisions are being made to cause such a separation of things into two separate categories. If God is just free flowing reality without any decision making capacity (which to me just implies atheism) then why even make anything outside of itself at all? And I would only prefer Panentheism over Atheism if Panentheism implies that the universe/God actually makes decisions sometimes.

However Pantheism just sounds logically absurd lol because A would then equal B and C and D, etc, yet A is clearly different than B, and C, etc. I just try to think about decision making, period. Does ultimate reality make decisions or not is my biggest question. For me omnipotent and eternal is obvious, but does that omnipotent & eternal thing actually think and make decisions, or just produce organisms that do?

So at first glance it sounds like your basic definition of God doesn’t tie you to a personal agent, however, why create anything then? That’s a decision. So your definition demands that God is a conscious agent then?

I get pulled into Deism with the problem of evil, and how relative morals look from the viewpoints of different species. For a lion a lion eating a gazelle is good, for a gazelle a lion eating a gazelle is bad. God with a capital G might also care less about what gods with a lower case g do. Earth might be highly influenced by a god or gods, and God could care less. (G)od might just enjoy the circle of life running its course. Lower case gods just being more powerful entities in that grand circle of life. As if we are tiny fish but gods are whales.

Maybe you need to think carefully about what a 'decision' really is - is it how we evaluate what to do in a given situation and then use our imagination to visualise how that evaluation could have gone differently, or is it something mysterious?

Given your explanation of why you 'get pulled into Deism', I wonder why you need the idea of a God or gods at all... Doesn't it just raise more questions and make things more complicated without actually explaining anything? Where's the benefit?

 

[AV1611VET]

That sounds weird to someone who spent his childhood Yuletides wistfully looking out the window wondering when it was going to snow...

Try Christmas on Guam!

Here we are on Guam.
Without a hope of snow.
But through the spreading palms.
A typhoon sure can blow.

Santa Claus will know.
What the tropics will allow.
Instead of riding eight reindeer.
He'll ride a carabao!

- Parody of Jingle Bells, by the Morrison Five

 

[DamianWarS]

Does that make me an apanentheist?

Perhaps if you are a different type of theist that disagrees with apanentheisim

 

[DamianWarS]

Sorry that wasn’t clear by that I just meant what a primitive civilization would call god(s) if their world was being influenced by a highly advanced civilization. Like some of the Fermi Paradox theories where Earth is like a cosmic zoo for an advanced civilization, so God wouldn’t care, God would allow Earth to falsely go on thinking that these gods were really God. And if they ever did visit, like statues that you see with their elongated heads or whatever they might look like, ancient peoples would make gods out of them (and God wouldn’t care that everyone is fooled).

A apathetic God is not something I subscribe to. God desires us, he reaches out to us, he welcomes us but I don't think he doesn't care about us or doesn't care where we place our affections.

 

[Phred]

A apathetic God is not something I subscribe to. God desires us, he reaches out to us, he welcomes us but I don't think he doesn't care about us or doesn't care where we place our affections.

From over here this is the silliest thing I witness time after time. People telling other people what the think a God does or doesn't care/think/do. Show me with any tangible evidence what a god has ever done. Ever.

But you folks will keep arguing about it. Because no god has ever manifested itself to correct you.

 

[AV1611VET]

Show me with any tangible evidence what a god has ever done. Ever.

As well as JERUSALEM.

 

[Phred]

As well as JERUSALEM.

Well. That's stupid. The country is called ISRAEL.

 

[Phred]

As well as JERUSALEM.

Not to mention they are JEWISH and deny that JESUS is the messiah. Why are you banging your head on a wall like this?

 

[dlamberth]

So omnipresence could get thrown off of your checklist if you’re not tying yourself to the Biblical definition of God and you’re just thinking of it using logic, ...

It looks to me like your missing the "experiential" aspect of knowing the omnipresence of God. I'm highlighting the word "experiential" here. That's because knowing the omnipresence of God directly is way more soul touching than Biblical definitions or any definitions for that matter can ever be. When exploring the presence of God, Definitions, Biblical or otherwise, will always fall short of the actually event of the souls awareness of God's presence. But I also want to add that as a universal presence that is not limited to or contained within any single set of religious beliefs we find the omnipresence of God being experienced world wide with in many spiritual trajectories.

 

[Ophiolite]

It looks to me like your missing the "experiential" aspect of knowing the omnipresence of God. I'm highlighting the word "experiential" here. That's because knowing the omnipresence of God directly is way more soul touching than Biblical definitions or any definitions for that matter can ever be. When exploring the presence of God, Definitions, Biblical or otherwise, will always fall short of the actually event of the souls awareness of God's presence. But I also want to add that as a universal presence that is not limited to or contained within any single set of religious beliefs we find the omnipresence of God being experienced world wide with in many spiritual trajectories.

What you and others call experiencing God, I and others simply call being amazed by the wonders of nature and feeling at one with them. There appears to be no difference between the two experiences, except as to how they are described.

 

[AV1611VET]

The country is called ISRAEL.

No kidding?

You asked what God has done.

He founded the Jews, as well as their country.

And did you miss the USA in there as well?

JEHOVAH founded Israel.

Jesus founded the United States.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not to mention they are JEWISH and deny that JESUS is the messiah.

Imagine that!?

That's something else God is going to have to take care of, isn't it?

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Why are you banging your head on a wall like this?

Keep posting, Phred.

I like your avatar, by the way.

 

[dlamberth]

What you and others call experiencing God, I and others simply call being amazed by the wonders of nature and feeling at one with them. There appears to be no difference between the two experiences, except as to how they are described.

Having once been limited to where your at, which I still go to on a daily bases as I work my garden, I've since become aware of a deeper more encompassing presence of the Divine not only in Nature, but through out the Cosmos. There really is a difference in presence in the wonders of nature than when experiencing the presence of the Divine directly IN Nature and IN Life as a whole. It's an interesting point that you bring up, so much so that you will find that the mystics through out time have quite often addressed this very subject.