What about the differences between chimps and humans?

Subduction Zone

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Merry Christmas!

That is not reliable evidence for God. I know, your parents said that you would not get any presents if you did not believe. That does not count.

There's an old saying that says otherwise:

There are no atheists in foxholes.

And that is a blatant falsehood. Why on Earth quote people that openly break the Ninth Commandment? That is as "true" as the claim that there are no Christians in foxholes.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Unless it was real before it was believed in.

And in that case, their refusal to believe in it makes them wrong.

Remember Planet 9 from outer space?

Just because some believe it is no longer [cue John Lennon] "number nine" [/cue John Lennon], doesn't mean it is no longer number nine.
Oh there is no doubt that the celestial body existed. Though one can never say for sure what you believe since your own claims appear to be all over the place. You are just unjustly worried about the name of that body.
 
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Phred

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Here's something else I'll QED:

Science isn't just content to draw lines on paper and connect the dots.

Science goes overboard in the area of changing basic terms to theirs, which only ends up confusing itself.

My favorite example is when science calls miracles "magic," which stunts the conversation.

Science has tricks up its sleeve and, as I said, there's a point when you either have to tell science to take a hike or, as you said, agree to disagree.
I don't much care what you call them. I call them fictional.
 
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Subduction Zone

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you'll have to fill me in on what argument you are presenting here. if not to build a case against the existence of God then what is the goal behind saying people believe in different versions of God? people certainly do believe in different versions of God. But that's not an argument, that's a statement.
Many Christians do not appear to agree with you. If you are not one of those mistaken Christians good for you. But then looking up your version of Christianity, and please note I am not saying that you are not a Christian, but your version appears to be different enough that many other Christians would deny that you are a Christian.

That is why I said that there is more than one Christian "God". I am not saying that multiple gods exist, just different versions of God. And as the saying goes, only one of them can be right, but all of them can be wrong.

I do not need to argue against God because the burden of proof is not upon me in a formal debate.
 
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DamianWarS

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Many Christians do not appear to agree with you. If you are not one of those mistaken Christians good for you. But then looking up your version of Christianity, and please note I am not saying that you are not a Christian, but your version appears to be different enough that many other Christians would deny that you are a Christian.

That is why I said that there is more than one Christian "God". I am not saying that multiple gods exist, just different versions of God. And as the saying goes, only one of them can be right, but all of them can be wrong.

I do not need to argue against God because the burden of proof is not upon me in a formal debate.
What is it again you're aguring? I'm still not clear on that one. all I see here is red herrings.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Kinds is a biblical term not a biological term.

It's a term used in the Bible, but I wouldn't even call it a biblical term. It's simply the observation that there are differences between living things, "that thing is different from that thing over there".

As used by [Young Earth] Creationists, "kind" is a buzzword without definition, neither scientific nor biblical. A "kind" is whatever it needs to be in order for evolution to not be true in any given debate or discussion on the subject.

Dogs can be canines, but birds cannot be dinosaurs; because "kind" is defined reactively and ad hoc.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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AV1611VET

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A toast to Jólnir and the Wild Hunt!
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Vap841

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Christianity defines God with 3 characteristics: omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient or all-powerful, everywhere and all-knowing. These characteristics are immutable so however, they were before creation they are the same what after creation. each in a sense describes each other. ie. one cannot be omnipotent without being omnipresent and omniscient too.

omnipresence to me has been the most challenging logically speaking because in order for God to be everywhere does that not also mean he is everything? if not doesn't it mean God is not everywhere but instead fills in the gaps around everything? But in Christianity, there is an important distinction that God and his creation are separate and God is not his creation. So the best place I can put God is in a supraposition to creation that allows him to be omnipresent while also being separate from his creation.
So omnipresence could get thrown off of your checklist if you’re not tying yourself to the Biblical definition of God and you’re just thinking of it using logic, however on the flip side if you are tied to the Bible then it’s always possible that something could be fuzzy in the meaning and that the Biblical writers were actually trying to teach the concept of supraposition.

If Pantheism is true then omnipresence makes total sense, but for Pantheism to be true I could just use the words God and reality interchangeably, but does Panentheism imply conscious decision making by that reality at all? If not it’s just Atheism lol (just passive laws of nature). I feel like I haven’t thought my belief out enough to definitely say what I am. I say Deist because for things to come forth from God, but for those things to be separate from God, it seems like conscious decisions are being made to cause such a separation of things into two separate categories. If God is just free flowing reality without any decision making capacity (which to me just implies atheism) then why even make anything outside of itself at all? And I would only prefer Panentheism over Atheism if Panentheism implies that the universe/God actually makes decisions sometimes.

However Pantheism just sounds logically absurd lol because A would then equal B and C and D, etc, yet A is clearly different than B, and C, etc. I just try to think about decision making, period. Does ultimate reality make decisions or not is my biggest question. For me omnipotent and eternal is obvious, but does that omnipotent & eternal thing actually think and make decisions, or just produce organisms that do?
If God is immutable then before creation certainly he was omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient because there was nothing to compete with but the addition of creation doesn't change these characteristics. God is still immutable and still is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient
So at first glance it sounds like your basic definition of God doesn’t tie you to a personal agent, however, why create anything then? That’s a decision. So your definition demands that God is a conscious agent then?

I get pulled into Deism with the problem of evil, and how relative morals look from the viewpoints of different species. For a lion a lion eating a gazelle is good, for a gazelle a lion eating a gazelle is bad. God with a capital G might also care less about what gods with a lower case g do. Earth might be highly influenced by a god or gods, and God could care less. (G)od might just enjoy the circle of life running its course. Lower case gods just being more powerful entities in that grand circle of life. As if we are tiny fish but gods are whales.
 
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dlamberth

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omnipresence to me has been the most challenging logically speaking because in order for God to be everywhere does that not also mean he is everything? if not doesn't it mean God is not everywhere but instead fills in the gaps around everything? But in Christianity, there is an important distinction that God and his creation are separate and God is not his creation.
The way many of the Christian mystics work with this is that for those folks God is "in" this Creation, but at the same time not the physical form of the Creation. It's like the soul being in us, but is not our physical bodies. Another way I've heard it explained is that God is in the non-created aspect of Creation, but not in the created aspect. But your hitting on why so many mystics are Panenthesit. I bring that up knowing with some caution that in this forum Panentheism isn't well understood and often confuse it with Pantheism.
 
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AV1611VET

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I'm still missing the argument you're presenting and for some reason you seem unwilling to be clear with this.
Your avatar reminds me of a map in a video game:

latest
 
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DamianWarS

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The way many of the Christian mystics work with this is that for those folks God is "in" this Creation, but at the same time not the physical form of the Creation. It's like the soul being in us, but is not our physical bodies. Another way I've heard it explained is that God is in the non-created aspect of Creation, but not in the created aspect. But your hitting on why so many mystics are Panenthesit. I bring that up knowing with some caution that in this forum Panentheism isn't well understood and often confuse it with Pantheism.
Panentheism seems to be where I'm leaning or at least the easiest to reconcile but with a note that it's vehemently not pantheistic
 
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