Anti-Christ Location and Mystery Babylon?

[Douggg]

What you're telling me is the heads on the beast are 2,000 to 3,000 years old, but the horns have not yet come! That is horrible, horrible hermeneutics.

One of the Kings was ruling at the time of John, the "one is".

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The prophecy concerning the kings was incomplete at the time of John. The completion of the prophecy of the Kings is in Revelation 12, which goes over the 7 years particular to the woman Israel. The heads have their crowns in that chapter. King 7 will have come to power before the 7 years begin, the little horn person.

In Revelation 13, the heads don't have their crowns because the prophecy of the 7 Kings is over at that point, because the person will have been killed.

When the person comes back to life, it is as the beast, the 8th King of the Roman Empire of the Julio-Claudian family.

 

[Douggg]

You can't refute what I said about Daniel 2. An Arab isn't a Roman or European,

What is an Arab got to do with Daniel 2?

You disregard what 'aorist' tense of a verb is, and you really have no answer how past empires can have power ONE HOUR with the beast.

It doesn't say past empires have power one hour with the beast. It says ten kings.

Revelation 17.12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[Douggg]

The ONE that 'is' doesn't infer someone is ruling during John's time. It means one still remains after five fall.

That doesn't make sense for 7 kings. One still remaining following five would mean 6 kings.

The prophecy is for 7 kings.

 

[iamlamad]

Hi Douggg,

I would like to comment also. Where does it say in God`s word that the Roman Empire is in the end times. God has judged that rulership and He will NOT revive what He has judged.

Also just because Israel accepts a peace treaty (of which it has many over the years) does NOT mean it is saying that the person mediating that is their Messiah. No scriptural basis for that.

Marilyn.

It is a fact that the image of Daniel 2 goes from Babylon to the end of this age, still future to us today.

Dan. 2
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Before verse 44, Daniel is talking about the ancient kingdoms. It seems in verse 44 that suddenly he is talking about the end times. Surely the original "kings" of these empires are gone, but the land of those empires remain, and "kings" still remain.

Have you noticed that much of those land areas held by these empires covers most of today's Middle East? Have you noticed that all share a common religion?

Daniel did NOT leave the Kingdom of Rome for a new kingdom: the feet are still Rome, but at the end. Remember, "Rome" also included all the land area of Babylon, Medo Persia and Greece.

Rome DID divide into two parts, as desplayed by the two legs. But either leg was still "Rome." Rome, unlike all the previous kingdoms, was never destroyed by another power. If anything, Rome just dissolved.

Therefore, the feet and toes of partly iron is STILL "Rome" but does not have to be the Europe part of Rome. It could very well be the Middle East part of Rome.

One thing is certain: where Muslims migrate, they do NOT assimilate - hense the iron (Rome) mixed with clay.

 

[iamlamad]

Dougg,
You said,


There are no historical facts about Daniel 2 or 7 indicating Rome in any way.

In Nebuchadnezzar's vision of the great statue, the only thing said about the second kingdom is that it's inferior to Babylon. Was Medo-Persia the inferior kingdom? Absolutely not! The Median Empire was not only much smaller it was also short lived, about 6 years.

The word inferior is actually the word "arah" which means earth and world, and ground coupled with the word "inferior or below. If inferior means land, actually it means "less land," that rules out the Medo-Persian empire as the second empire since it was about three times the size of Babylon. It wasn't 'land inferior' to Babylon. The Median Empire was not only short-lived but it was also much smaller making it the inferior kingdom.
View attachment 248861
Daniel, Isaiah's, and Jeremiah's prophecies ascribe the conquest and destruction of Babylon to the Medes.

Daniel 5:31 "And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17 "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon)

Jeremiah 51:11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.

This means that the Mede's are the arms of silver, and the Persian's that thighs of bronze, and Greeks the legs of iron.

Second problem.

The word mixed used to describe the toes mingled with iron and clay is the Aramaic word "arab." It means mixed but it denotes an Arabian or Arabia. (Gesenius) I would like to know how people associate this word with ROME, ITALY.
View attachment 248862
Another problem.

Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar much more about the iron and clay than the other kingdoms because it depicts the end-time kingdom that the Lord returns to destroy. The word mixed actually describes the people, the origin, and the geographical area from which the end-time anti-Christ would arise.

Daniel says the kingdom would, subdue all things, and be divided, not cleave to one another, be partly strong and partly broken. and mixed (arab) with the seed of men. That reflects the people of the Arab Middle-East. Islam has subdued nearly every religion in the Middle East, and the Arabs and Muslims are far from a unified people. They are also among the most intermarried people in the world. (mixed (arab) with the seed of men)

The iron and clay cannot represent anything or anyone from the EU. Rome, Italy, and the EU, have strong alliances and are all a peaceful coalition of nations.

Also, locust are associated with the Arabs in the OT and that's who Revelation 9 is all about. Suicide bombers are mentioned in Revelation 9. Rome is nowhere to be found even in ONE end-time prophecy.

Did any king of Medo Persia write a letter extolling the greatness of God? Did any king of Medo Persia receive a dream which was written in God's word? Perhaps this is what is meant. It would be interesting to know if "ara" was EVER used to mean "less than" or "lower than" other than in the bible - if indeed it is translated according to the author's intent.

Perhaps all it means is, silver is inferior to gold, or that shoulders are lower than the head.
It is very strange how Daniel used this word twice in the same verse.

 

[Dr. D Bunker]

bye

 

[Douggg]

So I'm going to ask you the same question. How was Medo-Persia, "land inferior" to Babylon when it was 3-4 times the size? How does the word ARAB imply an Italian!

As soon as a preacher says "In the Greek......." you know you are in trouble. So conditioned, when I see in somebody's post some hebrew, greek, or aramic letters and words, and starts telling me this means this and this means this to make some sort of point - I automatically stop reading.

It is obvious from the content of the text, it not talking about arabs.
It is talking the Kingdom of Iron in the days of the ten toes, part of that kingdom being strong and part weak - not arabs - signified by partly clay, which is weaker than iron.

And that is the nature of the EU.

You are going to have the final kingdom of Daniel 2 ruled by some muslim. Who is the iron and who is the clay in that kingdom?

 

[Marilyn C]

It is a fact that the image of Daniel 2 goes from Babylon to the end of this age, still future to us today.

....
Daniel did NOT leave the Kingdom of Rome for a new kingdom: the feet are still Rome, but at the end. Remember, "Rome" also included all the land area of Babylon, Medo Persia and Greece.

Rome DID divide into two parts, as desplayed by the two legs. But either leg was still "Rome." Rome, unlike all the previous kingdoms, was never destroyed by another power. If anything, Rome just dissolved.

Therefore, the feet and toes of partly iron is STILL "Rome" but does not have to be the Europe part of Rome. It could very well be the Middle East part of Rome.

One thing is certain: where Muslims migrate, they do NOT assimilate - hense the iron (Rome) mixed with clay.

Hi iamlamad,

I have started a new thread on this topic and you may want to reply there.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

One of the Kings was ruling at the time of John, the "one is".

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The prophecy concerning the kings was incomplete at the time of John. The completion of the prophecy of the Kings is in Revelation 12, which goes over the 7 years particular to the woman Israel. The heads have their crowns in that chapter. King 7 will have come to power before the 7 years begin, the little horn person.

In Revelation 13, the heads don't have their crowns because the prophecy of the 7 Kings is over at that point, because the person will have been killed.

When the person comes back to life, it is as the beast, the 8th King of the Roman Empire of the Julio-Claudian family.

Hi Douggg,

The 4 visions of Christ in the book of Revelation each have their own time period.

1. Christ as Head of the Body of Christ. (early church till the Rapture. Rev. 1 - 3)
2. Christ the Heir of the world. (Rapture to the Trib. Rev. 4 - 7)
3. Christ the Mediator of the Covenant. (Trib. to end of anti-Christ`s rule. Rev. 8 - 13)
4. Christ the Judge of the world. (Last 3 1/2 years of trib, till New heavens and New Earth. Rev. 14 - 22)

The 7 kings ruling, one at a time over the Global Government are thus in the time period of the Lord judging the world. Note, nothing to do with John`s time period. John is only shown the visions, and the visions have to do with the Lord and what He is doing, not John or his time.


Marilyn.

 

[Douggg]

The 7 kings ruling, one at a time over the Global Government are thus in the time period of the Lord judging the world. Note, nothing to do with John`s time period. John is only shown the visions, and the visions have to do with the Lord and what He is doing, not John or his time.

Marilyn, I am going by what is stated in the text of Revelation 17.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

King 6 was ruling right then at the time John was there in heaven being shown the events that will take place over the course of the 7 years 70th week of the end time. Which King 6 was the first century. A Caesar ruling.

King 7 had not yet come in John's day, and is future in the end times.

 

[Marilyn C]

Marilyn, I am going by what is stated in the text of Revelation 17.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

King 6 was ruling right then at the time John was there in heaven being shown the events that will take place over the course of the 7 years 70th week of the end time. Which King 6 was the first century. A Caesar ruling.

King 7 had not yet come in John's day, and is future in the end times.

Hi Douggg,

It is a vision, and not actual events in John`s time. God`s word tells us it is in time of the Lord judging the rebellious and the Gentile`s final world rulers. See Rev. 14:8 declaring that `Babylon is fallen, is fallen.` Rev.17 & 18 are the details of Babylon and how God deals with it. That does not happen in John`s time.

Marilyn.

 

[Douggg]

It is a vision, and not actual events in John`s time. God`s word tells us it is in time of the Lord judging the rebellious and the Gentile`s final world rulers.

There is only one of the 7 kings in Revelation 17:10 who will be involved at the time of the Lord judging the rebellious and the Gentiles' final world rulers.


From what it states in Revelation 17:10, "one is" of the 7 kings. Present tense. John lived in the first century. Jesus was presenting Revelation to John at the time one of the Caesar was ruling.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The one king, not yet come, relevant to John's time, is the 7th king, the end times' little horn person.

 

[Marilyn C]

There is only one of the 7 kings in Revelation 17:10 who will be involved at the time of the Lord judging the rebellious and the Gentiles' final world rulers.


From what it states in Revelation 17:10, "one is" of the 7 kings. Present tense. John lived in the first century. Jesus was presenting Revelation to John at the time one of the Caesar was ruling.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The one king, not yet come, relevant to John's time, is the 7th king, the end times' little horn person.

Hi Douggg,

The one `is,` cannot be in John`s time as that would mean -

Vision 4 Christ the Judge - vision of (future) Babylon, then back to John`s time, then the vision again. God`s word doesn`t tell us that. The vision concerns the Lord judging Babylon and who the leaders are.

There are 7 heads/leaders (consecutive) of the final Gentile Global Government. To say that any of those were in the time of John, cannot be as the Lord will (future) judge them. All the past leaders have been judged and thus are not part of the final Gentile Global Government - the beast.

The one `is,` is in the time of the 10 kings waiting for their authority with the beast. (Rev. 17: 12) This is just before the 7th`s rule of the world for 42 months.

Context - vision of the future, NOT of the past.

regards, Marilyn,

 

[Douggg]

The vision concerns the Lord judging Babylon and who the leaders are.

Mystery Babylon the great is not a human kingdom. It is the kingdom of Satan and his angels, it is antithesis of the Kingdom of God.

That kingdom does get destroyed. But is not the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7 that gets destroyed, which the 7 kings are of the fourth kingdom.

The grammar in the text is not correct for six of those kings to be future of John's time.

 

[Marilyn C]

Mystery Babylon the great is not a human kingdom. It is the kingdom of Satan and his angels, it is antithesis of the Kingdom of God.

That kingdom does get destroyed. But is not the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7 that gets destroyed, which the 7 kings are of the fourth kingdom.

The grammar in the text is not correct for six of those kings to be future of John's time.

Hi Douggg,

I can agree with some of your thoughts. Satan has finally established his central power over the earth.

However.....God`s word says that Babylon is a `city.` And we see that city, holds the centre of the false religion and economic aspect of the Global government.

`...the great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.` (Rev. 17: 18)

`For all nations have drunk of the wine of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.` (Rev. 18: 3)

Then God reveals that when the anti-Christ comes to power with his 10 king confederacy, then they will get rid of the false religion and go straight to satanic worship of the anti-Christ. So we see God telling us about before the A/C rules and then after. He rules with the 10 kings. Two different times.

In the `BEFORE` time are the `5 fallen & one is` leaders, and `AFTER` is the 7th & 8th leader and Satan. These are ALL within the time of the vision and not in John`s time. ALL these leaders are of the final Gentile Global Government. They are not historic as God has already judged past world leaders.

The grammar is correct in relation to the vision. God has not stopped the vision and then gone back to John`s time, God has revealed in the vision all the relates to the vision of the Lord judging the final Gentile Global Government.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Douggg]

The grammar is correct in relation to the vision. God has not stopped the vision and then gone back to John`s time, God has revealed in the vision all the relates to the vision of the Lord judging the final Gentile Global Government

Marilyn, the language and grammar used in Revelation 17:10 for the kings is the same as used in Revelation 1:4 used, but in regards to Jesus.

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Rev 1:4......which was - relevant to John's time, Jesus was crucified, fallen. (Historic)
Rev 17:10..Five have fallen - relevant to John's time, (Historic)

Rev 1:4......which is - Jesus right then in heaven, John's present time. (Present)
Rev 17:10..one is - the 6th king, John's present time. (Present)

Rev 1:4.....which is to come - Jesus at His Second Coming (future)
Rev 17:10..which is not yet come - 7th king, end times (future)

Now, you are not going to tell me Jesus is going to die some time in the future are you, because the vision John received was about events surrounding Jesus's Second Coming? No, Jesus was crucified, cutoff already. Just like the 5 kings have died already.

Jesus, was, is, is to come...............John's time.

The 7 Kings, 5 were, one is, one is to come.......John's time

 

[Marilyn C]

Marilyn, the language and grammar used in Revelation 17:10 for the kings is the same as used in Revelation 1:4 used, but in regards to Jesus.

Hi Douggg,

I am appreciating discussing this topic with you as it brings to light a very important point as regards understanding God`s word. You rightly say `Grammar` is important, yet we need also to look at the context. If it was just Grammar, then the Day of the God`s wrath would have come, and Babylon would have been judged.

"For the great day of his wrath HAS COME, and who is able to stand?" (Rev. 6: 17)
"Babylon IS fallen, IS fallen,...` (Rev. 14: 8)

Now we know that those events have NOT happened although the Grammar say it has. Thus there is need of not only grammar BUT also CONTEXT.

So let`s have a closer look at this final Gentile Global Government arising.

`Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having 7 heads and 10 horns, and on his horns 10 crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.

Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. `(Rev. 13: 1 & 2)

We see that this final Gentile Global Government is future to John, as Babylon, Medes & Persians, and Greeks, & Romans had all risen up previously to John. All these historic world rulers have been judged by God and are no more.

But the leopard, bear, & lion are part of this final Gentile Rulership and are super powers that combine together under the control of the terrifying beast with the 10 horns - becoming a confederacy. The horns are crowned revealing they are 10 kings.

There is nothing historic about the final Gentile Rulership of the world.

Marilyn.

 

[Douggg]

Hi Douggg,

I am appreciating discussing this topic with you as it brings to light a very important point as regards understanding God`s word. You rightly say `Grammar` is important, yet we need also to look at the context. If it was just Grammar, then the Day of the God`s wrath would have come, and Babylon would have been judged.

"For the great day of his wrath HAS COME, and who is able to stand?" (Rev. 6: 17)
"Babylon IS fallen, IS fallen,...` (Rev. 14: 8)

Now we know that those events have NOT happened although the Grammar say it has. Thus there is need of not only grammar BUT also CONTEXT.

So let`s have a closer look at this final Gentile Global Government arising.

`Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having 7 heads and 10 horns, and on his horns 10 crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.

Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. `(Rev. 13: 1 & 2)

We see that this final Gentile Global Government is future to John, as Babylon, Medes & Persians, and Greeks, & Romans had all risen up previously to John. All these historic world rulers have been judged by God and are no more.

But the leopard, bear, & lion are part of this final Gentile Rulership and are super powers that combine together under the control of the terrifying beast with the 10 horns - becoming a confederacy. The horns are crowned revealing they are 10 kings.

There is nothing historic about the final Gentile Rulership of the world.

Marilyn.

Marilyn, go to google image search. Type in - Babylon empire - do a search, notice what you see. Then type in - Medo-Persian empire - do a search, notice what you see. Repeat for the Greek empire, and the Roman Empire.

What you will see is maps of the territories each of those empires controlled.

The beasts coming out of the sea in Daniel 7, came out one, then followed by another. Four empires following each other.

In Revelation 13, the beast coming out of the sea is not preceded by any other empires - but has a body made of the three historic empires.

What's that saying? It is saying that with 42 months left in the seven years, the end times fourth empire will have gained control of the territories (remember the maps?) of the three historic empires.

The beast empire in Revelation 13 is not a global government. It will be the dominant power over the rest of the world, but it will represent Europe (and the West, the United States and Canada). Controlling the global economy and the oil in the middle east.

The world will have four regional global powers. The west, Europe and it's allies. The south, the African nations, united. The north, Russia and their allies. The east, China and their allies.

Near the very end of the seven years, these four regional global powers will collide in the middle east in the battles in Daniel 11:40-45 as a prelude to Armageddon. Which, when Jesus appears in the sixth seal event, they will unite to make war on Jesus.