Anti-Christ Location and Mystery Babylon?

[Revealing Times]

Hi Revealing Times,

I realise you are set in what you think and thus not up for discussion. Now my teachers of eschatology, many, many years ago, were men of God and had studied God`s word also. So it is not my thoughts or reasonings but what I have studied at Bible school.

BTW I have also studied Eschatology since the `70`s. So I`m not a new comer.

Marilyn.

And when you get to Heaven you will find out you were wrong on many things regarding eschatology. Remember we had a discussion on something a year or so ago, and you was so far out in left field on that issue that I just moved on, I know you learned it from someone because heard it years ago and saw through it.

I see people all the time who have these ideas who are trying to "be called" to something they aren't called unto. Some of us are feet and some hands, trying to be a foot when you are called to be a hand is a no no. Some say the Seals are opened, some say the Rapture is post trib, some say the Seals, Trumpets and Vials are all the same events etc. etc. The facts are, some people just don't understand prophecy and never will.

God Bless sister.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

EQ,


This is how Revelation 18:2 looks like in the 15th century Greek Textus Receptus,

epesen epesen G4098 vi 2Aor Act 3 Sg FALLS she it-falls
epesen epesen G4098 vi 2Aor Act 3 Sg FALLS she it-falls

The root form of the verb "fallen" is FALL. When there are NO other adjectives, adverbs, or supportive verbs, or any word to conjugate FALL in the PAST TENSE, it remains PRESENT tense!!

Where does Islam fit in concerning Jezebel in the 6th assembly in Revelation.
I don't believe Revelation 2:20 is referring to the "church of Islam", but what the heck do I know........

Rev 2:20
'But I have against thee a few things:
That thou dost suffer the woman/wife Jezebel, who is calling herself a prophetess, to teach, and to lead astray, my servants to commit whoredom, and idol-sacrifices to eat;

That refers back to Her, King Ahab and Elijah in the OT, something which the Hebrew Jews would be familiar with.......

2Ki 9:7
and thou hast smitten the house of Ahab thy lord, and I have required the blood of My servants the prophets, and the blood of all the servants of Jehovah, from the hand of Jezebel;
2Ki 9:30
When Jezebel, the queen mother, heard that Jehu had come to Jezreel, she painted her eyelids and fixed her hair and sat at a window.

Rev 18:
7 'As much as she did glorify herself and did revel, so much torment and sorrow give to her,
because in her heart she saith, 'I sit a queen, and a widow I am not, and sorrow I shall not see;'
24 and in her blood of prophets and of saints was found, and of all those who have been slain upon the land.'

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Thyatira and Jezebel

“And to the Messenger of the Assembly in Thyatira write!…” (Rev. 2:18).
“These things saith the Son of God, who hath His eyes like unto a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass; .............

The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches,.............

Thyatira means “sweet perfume of sacrifice” and when you study this word it speaks of a perfume that sends forth its fragrance as the result of bruising, crushing, or breaking........

As we study the message to the church in Thyatira we see that the primary emphasis is upon the Jezebel spirit in that church
and the “great tribulation” into which the Lord will cast her in order to judge, break, and purify her.

Most of the ingredients in the holy anointing oil with which the priesthood of Israel was anointed were made fragrant through the process of bruising and crushing. Once the spices were gathered, only as they were pierced and crushed did their fragrance go forth. It is not easy to yield to the crushing and bruising! ..........

.

 

[Marilyn C]

And when you get to Heaven you will find out you were wrong on many things regarding eschatology. Remember we had a discussion on something a year or so ago, and you was so far out in left field on that issue that I just moved on, I know you learned it from someone because heard it years ago and saw through it.

I see people all the time who have these ideas who are trying to "be called" to something they aren't called unto. Some of us are feet and some hands, trying to be a foot when you are called to be a hand is a no no. Some say the Seals are opened, some say the Rapture is post trib, some say the Seals, Trumpets and Vials are all the same events etc. etc. The facts are, some people just don't understand prophecy and never will.

God Bless sister.

Hi Revealing Times,

We can`t be too far different is I believe as you do, that the seals aren`t opened, and the trumpets and vials are not the same event or that the Rapture is post trib. It is just the details of certain events that we see differently.

And BTW when someone has to put down another inferring that they are trying to be something (foot or hand) then it actually backfires on that person for it shows they are not, or cannot discuss scripture but are resorting to denigrating the other person to prove they are right. Very sad and counter productive.

It is for all to study God`s word and to discuss so we can learn from each other as to what the Holy Spirit has revealed.

Glad you remembered our former discussions, may our future ones be more about God`s word than about me.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Here I am trying to prove a point about how the word FALL is used in Revelation 17:10 and there you are going to 2 Kings, King Ahab, Elijah, Revelation 2, and the church at Thyatira and Jezebel!
See what I mean about you guys scrambling your replies!

Anyone that sees Islam and Mecca in Revelation is already scrambled........
We just want to make sure others aren't led into that wacky goofy view.......

..

 

[Douggg]

My wall came down in the 90's when I realized the RRE was baloney. Prophecy is what led me to the Lord in 1973. That's when I use to believe what you do today.

Revived Roman Empire is bad terminology because it wrongly teaches that the head mortally wounded but head is a kingdom and not a king.

The concept for the fourth kingdom - the Roman Empire, though, is valid as an end times version of it.

The prophecy about the individual end times person as the little horn (7th king) and later as the beast (8th king) is him over that end times Roman Empire.

In your scenario, you have an Islamic kingdom - ignoring that the ten kings in Daniel 7 and Revelation are of the fourth kingdom.

The problem for what is the RRE view is that it doesn't take into account the concept of the Antichrist has to do with being associated with Israel - not the Roman Empire.

I have explained to you and RT why this person has to be anointed the illegitimate King of Israel to be the Antichrist. It is built into the term "Antichrist" based upon the concept of "the Christ". It is not directly spelled out in bible - in the manner that you and RT demand.

But by the same token when I ask you to identify the dajjal person in the bible doing what the muslims say he is going to do, you cannot do it. You are going by what the muslims say about the mahdi - so you are basing your Islam scenario of their prophecies. The problem is that their prophecies about the dajjal is not matched by actual real end times prophecies in the bible.

I have sound rationale for the Antichrist being the person who will be anointed the illegitimate King of Israel, perceived by the Jews for a short period of time to be their mashiach. But you have no rationale nor verses to explain the dajjal person in the bible.

little horn - 7th king over the Roman Empire (in the end times)
Antichrist - illegitimate King of Israel for a short time
beast - 8th king over the Roman Empire (in the end tomes_

 

[ewq1938]

I have sound rationale for the Antichrist being the person who will be anointed the illegitimate King of Israel, perceived by the Jews for a short period of time to be their mashiach.

That would make him a legitimate king not illegitimate but the bible doesn't show this in any form. He will be the ruler/king of the entire world not just Israel. All religions and peoples will bow down to him and accept him as their God.

 

[Douggg]

That would make him a legitimate king not illegitimate but the bible doesn't show this in any form. He will be the ruler/king of the entire world not just Israel. All religions and peoples will bow down to him and accept him as their God.

I am using illegitimate to mean "not rightful" or God sent. But I do understand your point.

The bible doesn't come right out and say "King of Israel". But it is built into the term Antichrist, because of what is built into the term "the Christ".

The problem is that so many of the prophecies are geared to the person being the King of the Roman Empire - not the King of Israel. So being the Antichrist is only for when the person is in the role as the King of Israel.

He will be the ruler/king of the entire world not just Israel. All religions and peoples will bow down to him and accept him as their God.

That point is well taken. But the way to fit the person into that state is that he is no longer the King of Israel, but has become the beast, King of the Roman Empire end times. Not arguing with you, reasoning with you, okay?

If you follow down through my chart, you can see how this works out. Basically some guy becomes leader of Europe and following Gog/Magog, the Jews will think he is the messiah, and after about three years makes his claim of achieving God- hood, ending his Antichrist time. Is killed and brought back to life as the beast, and the world worships him because his claim will appear to them to be true.

 

[ewq1938]

The bible doesn't come right out and say "King of Israel". But it is built into the term Antichrist, because of what is built into the term "the Christ".

Christ just means Messiah not "King of Israel" which of course the Messiah did not come to be.

The problem is that so many of the prophecies are geared to the person being the King of the Roman Empire - not the King of Israel. So being the Antichrist is only for when the person is in the role as the King of Israel.

Like I said, the AC is going to be king of the world not just certain places.

That point is well taken. But the way to fit the person into that state is that he is no longer the King of Israel, but has become the beast, King of the Roman Empire end times. Not arguing with you, reasoning with you, okay?

Sure but I don't see any of this in scripture. The AC rises as a beast, does not become the King of Israel before that or at any time other than king of the whole world.

If you follow down through my chart, you can see how this works out. Basically some guy becomes leader of Europe and following Gog/Magog, the Jews will think he is the messiah, and after about three years makes his claim of achieving God- hood, ending his Antichrist time. Is killed and brought back to life as the beast, and the world worships him because his claim will appear to them to be true.

I love the plot line there but the bible doesn't present any of that at all. The AC is never wounded, only the kingdom he will rule will have had a wound and only to one of it's "mountains". And it didn't cause any form of death it was simply a serious wound so no death and no resurrection and it's a mountain not a person.

 

[ewq1938]

Can any of you quote ONE verse of prophecy where Rome is specifically stated as being any of these beast or anything relevant to end-time prophecy? I've been asking people that question for almost 20 years and not one person has ever quoted ONE!

Rome is clearly the one bolded:

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Rome was in the process of falling when John wrote Rev. The last one is the one we are still waiting for and it won't be Rome because Rome was number 6.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

ewq1938 said: ↑
That would make him a legitimate king not illegitimate but the bible doesn't show this in any form. He will be the ruler/king of the entire world not just Israel. All religions and peoples will bow down to him and accept him as their God.

Would that be akin to a "despot"?

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Search Wikipedia Encyclopedia:

1203. despotes des-pot'-ace perhaps from 1210 and posis (a husband);
an absolute ruler ("despot"):--Lord, master.
Despotism (Greek: Δεσποτισμός, Despotismós) is a form of government in which a single entity rules with absolute power. Normally, that entity is an individual, the despot, as in an autocracy, but societies which limit respect and power to specific groups have also been called despotic.[1]
G1203 matches the Greek δεσπότης (despotēs), occurs 10 times in 10 verses

That Greek word is used a few times for Jesus in the NT......interesting

This word uses a "combo-word":

Matt 21:33
Another parable hear ye! A certain Man was home-Owner/Master/oiko-despothV <3617> who-any plants a vineyard, and a barrier/fence to it places-about,
and excavates in it a winepress and builds a Tower and granted it to Farmers and he travels. [Isaiah 5:1-3/Revelation 14:20]

Then there are these:

2 Peter 2:1
And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers,
who shall bring in destructive sects, and the Owner/Master<1203> Who bought them, denying/disowning/arnou-menoi <720>,
bringing to themselves quick destruction
[Jeremiah 14:14,15/Matt 24:11/Jude 1:4/Revelation 6:10]

Revelation 6:9
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the word of God and the testimony they had given.
10 And they cry out to a great voice saying "how long, the Owner/Master<1203> the Holy and True,
not Thou are judging and avenging the blood of us from out of the ones homing upon the land?"

Luke 18:7
And shall not God execute the avenging of His elect,
the ones crying out to Him day and night, and be deferring in regard to them?

.

 

[Douggg]

Christ just means Messiah not "King of Israel" which of course the Messiah did not come to be.

Not that simple. Anointed's were many. The kings and priest were anointed's. "The" messiah is speaking about a specific anointed who will be the King of Israel to lead Israel and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety.

John 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Mark31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Like I said, the AC is going to be king of the world not just certain places.

The verses in Revelation 13 call that person the beast, not the Antichrist.

Sure but I don't see any of this in scripture. The AC rises as a beast, does not become the King of Israel before that or at any time other than king of the whole world.

There is not one verse in the bible using the term the Antichrist (rises) as a beast or the beast. You have a misunderstanding of what the term Antichrist actually means.

On top of that you have been conditioned, as I have been, to use the term Antichrist in the broad sense applying it universally to all the verses in the bible of the arch end times villain. But it is actually wrong to do so. You should "rethink" - using the terms used in the bible for whatever role he is in for the specific verse(s) which you are talking about the person. For Revelation 13, for example, he is the beast.

I love the plot line there but the bible doesn't present any of that at all. The AC is never wounded, only the kingdom he will rule will have had a wound and only to one of it's "mountains". And it didn't cause any form of death it was simply a serious wound so no death and no resurrection and it's a mountain not a person.

See how you are thinking of the person? You automatically refer to the person as the Antichrist.

The person will no longer be the Antichrist when he is killed, but the revealed man of sin. Take another look at my chart.

When you equate the heads to being "kingdoms" - you change up the meaning of what was said in Revelation 17:10. The heads are a metaphor for "kings".

What you have done is take a metaphor and made another metaphor out of what is already a metaphor to be "kingdoms". That's a no-no rationally speaking.

 

[Douggg]

That's proves nothing. That's because you believe in a progression of ancient empires which in my view of a complete blunder. I've asked these questions and nobody has taken the time to answer. You can be the first.

"How did these ancient empires ascend out from the bottomless pit?

How can the ten horns, and/or the 7 heads, "have no kingdom as yet but receive power ONE hour with the beast, most of them are ancient empires?

How can these ancient empires have ONE mind and (SHALL) give their power and strength to the beast?

AND HOW did they, these ancient empires, (ROME) make war with the Lamb and the Lamb overcome them...IF ALL but ONE or two are an ancient empire?"

The basic error ewq is making a metaphor out of a metaphor. The heads are metaphors for "king". It is error to add another metaphor level to it.

 

[Douggg]

Dear children, the last hour is here. You have heard that the Antichrist is coming, and already many such antichrists have appeared. From this we know that the last hour has come.

The word THE is in the original text, and the first word "Antichrist is Capitalized and is singular and the other plural.

Mr. Bunker, you have the beast as some unidentified at present, end time muslim person. Who will work together with the Mahdi (the false prophet).

And you have said the dajjal is the biblical Antichrist. So please show the biblical Antichrist in the end time prophecies, and doing something the muslims claim he will do.

I explained to you what the Antichrist is - and what he will do in that role, confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle required by Mose in Deuteronomy 31:9-:13 for 7 years. And because the Jews (and the world) will be thinking the person is the real messiah, and thus will be saying peace and safety because they will be thinking they have entered the messianic age of peace and safety.

 

[Douggg]

That's not an acceptable answer. I'm not adding any metaphors. They are all literal kings! I know you can't answer the questions without debunking your own self!

I wasn't referring to you. But ewq. I will go back to my post and clarify to who I am referring to.

The heads represent seven kings.

 

[Marilyn C]

Rome is clearly the one bolded:

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Rome was in the process of falling when John wrote Rev. The last one is the one we are still waiting for and it won't be Rome because Rome was number 6.

Hi ewq,

Actually if we carefully look at God`s word we`ll see when the 5 fall. The 5 leaders fall (one at a time) just before the anti-Christ rules. The `one is` ruling, is just before the 10 kings of the final confederacy. They will give their power to the beastly leader, the anti-Christ.

1. 5 leaders fall, one at a time. (In our time)
2. One is - a leader of the global government just before - (in the tribulation)
3. The final confederacy of 10 kings who support the anti-Christ. (in the final 42 months of the trib, when the anti-Christ rules.)

Successive leadership of the final world ruler God has spoken about.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Mr. Bunker, you have the beast as some unidentified at present, end time muslim person. Who will work together with the Mahdi (the false prophet).

And you have said the dajjal is the biblical Antichrist. So please show the biblical Antichrist in the end time prophecies, and doing something the muslims claim he will do.

I explained to you what the Antichrist is - and what he will do in that role, confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle required by Mose in Deuteronomy 31:9:13 for 7 years. And because the Jews (and the world) will be thinking the person is the real messiah, and thus will be saying peace and safety because they will be thinking they have entered the messianic age of peace and safety.

Hi Douggg,

Just thought I`d give my thoughts.


Details of the anti-Christ –


His nationality – Assyrian. (Isa. 31: 8 Micah 5: 5)

The region he comes from – the Ancient Assyrian Empire. (Dan. 11: 35 – 43)

Leader of Ancient Assyrian region - Iraq, Syria & Jordan. (Dan. 7: 8)

Leader of Islamic Federation – 10 kings of Islam. (Dan. 7: 8, Rev. 17: 12)

He rules the world – (Rev. 16: 13 & 14, 19: 19)



Marilyn.

 

[Douggg]

Hi Douggg,

Just thought I`d give my thoughts.


Details of the anti-Christ –


His nationality – Assyrian. (Isa. 31: 8 Micah 5: 5)

The region he comes from – the Ancient Assyrian Empire. (Dan. 11: 35 – 43)

Leader of Ancient Assyrian region - Iraq, Syria & Jordan. (Dan. 7: 8)

Leader of Islamic Federation – 10 kings of Islam. (Dan. 7: 8, Rev. 17: 12)

He rules the world – (Rev. 16: 13 & 14, 19: 19)



Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

Leader of Islamic Federation –

10 kings of Islam. (Dan. 7: 8, Rev. 17: 12)

Dani 7, 8 - little horn person
Revelation 17:12 - the beast

The whole world, except for the saints, worships the beast. So it is reasonable to think that muslims who deny that Jesus is God, would worship a fellow muslim believing he is God?

His nationality –

Assyrian. (Isa. 31: 8 Micah 5: 5)

Micah 5:5 is end times. Isaiah 31:8, I am not thinking so.

Michah 5:5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.

6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

I am thinking the Assyrian could be the leader of Persia (Iran) Ezekiel 38:5 when Gog/Magog attacks.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,



Dani 7, 8 - little horn person
Revelation 17:12 - the beast

The whole world, except for the saints, worships the beast. So it is reasonable to think that muslims who deny that Jesus is God, would worship a fellow muslim believing he is God?


Micah 5:5 is end times. Isaiah 31:8, I am not thinking so.

Michah 5:5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.

6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

I am thinking the Assyrian could be the leader of Persia (Iran) Ezekiel 38:5 when Gog/Magog attacks.

Hi Douggg,

Thank you for replying to the scriptures.

The Muslims are looking for their Messiah as it is written in their Koran.
Now let`s have a closer look at the context of Isaiah 31: 4 & 8.

`So the Lord of hosts will come down to fight for Mount Zion and for its hill. Like birds flying about so will the Lord of hosts defend Jerusalem. Defending, He will also deliver it; passing over, He will preserve it......the Assyrian shall fall by a sword not of man...`

We can see that is the time when the Lord comes to bring vengeance upon the rebellious and deliver Israel. And the Assyrian is killed by the `sword` out of the mouth of the Lord - His word.

As to the Micah reference you need to read further relating to the time when the `remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, in the midst of many peoples, like a lion among the beasts of the forest.....` (Micah 5: 8)

And that has not happened yet. Nor the enemies being cut off and the Lord executing vengeance .... (Micah 5: 9 - 15)

Marilyn.

 

[Douggg]

Hi Douggg,

Thank you for replying to the scriptures.

The Muslims are looking for their Messiah as it is written in their Koran.
Now let`s have a closer look at the context of Isaiah 31: 4 & 8.

`So the Lord of hosts will come down to fight for Mount Zion and for its hill. Like birds flying about so will the Lord of hosts defend Jerusalem. Defending, He will also deliver it; passing over, He will preserve it......the Assyrian shall fall by a sword not of man...`

We can see that is the time when the Lord comes to bring vengeance upon the rebellious and deliver Israel. And the Assyrian is killed by the `sword` out of the mouth of the Lord - His word.

As to the Micah reference you need to read further relating to the time when the `remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, in the midst of many peoples, like a lion among the beasts of the forest.....` (Micah 5: 8)

And that has not happened yet. Nor the enemies being cut off and the Lord executing vengeance .... (Micah 5: 9 - 15)

Marilyn.

I am thinking already fulfilled when an angel killed 185,000 of Sennacherib's Assyrian army during the night.

Heziekiah had people destroy their idols. Isaiah 31:7. Jews of today, even in Jesus's day, don't worship idols. So it is not a fit in our time. But was back in Hezekiah's day.

Assyrian siege of Jerusalem - Wikipedia

 

[Douggg]

I don't know who the dajjal is and I don't care what Muslim prophecy teaches about him. I don't apply Muslim prophecy to bible prophecy.

You are already using the Muslim prophecies when you refer to the Mahdi. And say the false prophet is going to be the Mahdi.

You can't answer my questions can you?

I don't even know what your questions are.

If you are talking about in your post #106, I am not making any claim about referring to a kingdom, but about a person.

Put forth your questions to me.

There's not one prophecy that indicates the anti-Christ comes as a Jewish Messiah or one that says the Jews would accept him.

Well, I have been over this three or four times with you, and explained it to you. You don't understand the concept of "the" Christ, and therefore cannot understand the concept of "the" Antichrist. And you don't want to take in the verses I give you.

And I can tell that you have not researched what the Jews believe to understand why they are going to embrace the person as their messiah, for a short time. Have you for example heard of the Rambam?

You do not understand what the confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is about, and you don't understand why God has disdain for the the person Isaiah 14:18-20.

Neither a muslim, nor the Pope, can be the Antichrist, because neither is qualified. The person has to be a Jew, believed to be descended from King David.