Annihilation=No Wrath

[ozso]

Some folks believe that when Jesus "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." that He really didn't mean that.

This isn't a UR thread. Annihilation goes against universalism.

 

[ozso]

While I do believe that having no recollection of this world is a possibility I don’t see that this particular verse from Matthew 7 actually supports the idea. The term “I never knew you” is referring to never having an intimate relationship with Christ. It doesn’t mean that He doesn’t remember them or didn’t know who they are. The word is used similarly in Matthew 1:25

“and knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1‬:‭25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Surely we can agree that Joseph knew who Mary was before she gave birth to Christ.

Sometimes "know/knew" is a euphemism for having sex in the KJV.

"But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." Matthew 1:25 NIV

"[a]but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he named Him Jesus." Matthew 1:25 NASB

 

[Der Alte]

Gehenna is not hades, though.
Hades and tartaros are Greek concepts, sheol and gehenna are Jewish concepts. Gehenna was a valley where trash was being destroyed by fire. The trash was not supposed to be eternal, only the fire was, for new and new trash.
NT being written in Greek might use Greek concepts to present the teachings of Jesus to the Greek/Roman readers, but its uncertain if Jesus used Greek concepts in his teachings. For example the apostle John did (the concept of divine Logos). But its possible that when Jesus said "sheol", the Greek authors of Gospels used "hades", as it was the closest available concept for the readers to understand.

This is incorrect. It is only an oft repeated internet rumor that Gehenna was used as a perpetually burning trash dump. There was a trash dump in a valley outside Jerusalem but it was not Gehenna it was the next valley over, the Kidron valley. So, when Jesus mentioned Gehenna He was talking about the place of etrernal fiery punishment which the Jews called both Gehenna and hades.
1906 Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna.

Gehenna The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.​

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem​

 

[Der Alte]

Gehenna is not hades, though.
Hades and tartaros are Greek concepts, sheol and gehenna are Jewish concepts. Gehenna was a valley where trash was being destroyed by fire. The trash was not supposed to be eternal, only the fire was, for new and new trash.
NT being written in Greek might use Greek concepts to present the teachings of Jesus to the Greek/Roman readers, but its uncertain if Jesus used Greek concepts in his teachings. For example the apostle John did (the concept of divine Logos). But its possible that when Jesus said "sheol", the Greek authors of Gospels used "hades", as it was the closest available concept for the readers to understand.

I'm not making this stuff up. You are mistaken I know what you want to believe. The Jewish Encyclopedia article I linked to documents that as early as 800 BC among Jews there was a belief in a place of fiery eternal p[unishment and they called it both Ge Hinnom and sheol, in Hebrew, which was written in the 225 BC Jewish translation of the OT into Greek as Gehenna and Hades.

 

[BurningBush84]

If God gave you the choice of being in the Kingdom of Heaven, or being annihilated, I seriously doubt you'd say it doesn't matter because both offer the the same benefits. By your reasoning being in a coma must also be like being in the Kingdom of Heaven.

"Heaven, it's just like being in a coma".

These are benefits only to living, thinking and experiencing creatures. Not dying, not feeling pain etc has no benefit for somebody who does not exist.

I thought we were talking about things that happen or don't happen after we die. "“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony."

I never said Annihilation is the same as heaven. I said it has the same benefits as described in Revelation 21:4.

Do annihilated people cry, mourn or feel any kind of sadness ? No.
Do annihilated people fear death or die ? No.
Do annihilated people ever feel any pain ? No.

Are annihilated people being punished ? No. They don't exist. You cant punish what doesn't exist. Punishment does not exist for people who do not exist.

Is a virgin who gets a vasectomy punishing his future children by depriving them of life ????? Of course not. That's ridiculous. Your interpretation of Matthew 25:46 is more ridiculous than my analogy of Rev 21:4. Your interpretation of Matt 25:46 is similar to what happened in Genesis 3:1 .

 

[ozso]

I thought we were talking about things that happen or don't happen after we die. "“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony."

I never said Annihilation is the same as heaven. I said it has the same benefits as described in Revelation 21:4.

Do annihilated people cry, mourn or feel any kind of sadness ? No.
Do annihilated people fear death or die ? No.
Do annihilated people ever feel any pain ? No.

Are annihilated people being punished ? No. They don't exist. You cant punish what doesn't exist. Punishment does not exist for people who do not exist.

Is a virgin who gets a vasectomy punishing his future children by depriving them of life ????? Of course not. That's ridiculous. Your interpretation of Matthew 25:46 is more ridiculous than my analogy of Rev 21:4. Your interpretation of Matt 25:46 is similar to what happened in Genesis 3:1 .

It's rather absurd to compare what will be experienced in the Kingdom of Heaven to nonexistence. Those in the Kingdom of Heaven will be able to experience joy in such things and be thankful for it. The annihilated wouldn't. Everything will be given to those in the in the Kingdom of Heaven. Everything would be taken away from the annihilated.

 

[Der Alte]

Annihilation... cute yet that's not what His word says. "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."
Yeah I'm going with what God says

While it is true that the lake of fire is called the second death twice, Rev never says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies. In Rev 20:10 three sentient beings, one, the false prophet, is a person, but they don't die they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:10​

(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.​

***​

Revelation 21:4-5​

(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

***​

Revelation 21:8​

(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Rev 20:4 "no more death", vs. 5 "I make all things new." In vs. 8 eight groups of the unrighteous are thrown into the LOF, since there is no more death they do not die although the LOF is still called the second death.

 

[ozso]

Gehenna is not hades, though.

Hades and tartaros are Greek concepts, sheol and gehenna are Jewish concepts. Gehenna was a valley where trash was being destroyed by fire. The trash was not supposed to be eternal, only the fire was, for new and new trash.

NT being written in Greek might use Greek concepts to present the teachings of Jesus to the Greek/Roman readers, but its uncertain if Jesus used Greek concepts in his teachings. For example the apostle John did (the concept of divine Logos). But its possible that when Jesus said "sheol", the Greek authors of Gospels used "hades", as it was the closest available concept for the readers to understand.

"He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice their son or daughter in the fire to Molek." 2 Kings 23:10

"They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin." Jeremiah 32:35

He burned sacrifices in the Valley of Ben Hinnom and sacrificed his children in the fire, engaging in the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites. 2 Chronicles 28:3

Gehenna is in reference to the Valley of Ben Hinnom.

 

[Der Alte]

It's rather absurd to compare what will be experienced in the Kingdom of Heaven to nonexistence. Those in the Kingdom of Heaven will be able to experience joy in such things and be thankful for it. The annihilated wouldn't. Everything will be given to those in the in the Kingdom of Heaven. Everything would be taken away from the annihilated.

Revelation 22:11​

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

***​

Revelation 22:15​

(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

Last book, last chapter ten more vss. the end, no more death, no more salvation only, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:"

 

[Der Alte]

This isn't a UR thread. Annihilation goes against universalism.

I never said anything about annihilation.

 

[ozso]

I never said anything about annihilation.

Why not? Annihilation the topic of this thread.

 

[Der Alte]

"He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice their son or daughter in the fire to Molek." 2 Kings 23:10
"They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin." Jeremiah 32:35
He burned sacrifices in the Valley of Ben Hinnom and sacrificed his children in the fire, engaging in the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites. 2 Chronicles 28:3
Gehenna is in reference to the Valley of Ben Hinnom.

That is incorrect.

1906 Jewish Encyclopedia - Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.
Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Ḥag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives....
The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεῖς Ιστορίαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). ...
The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)....

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[BurningBush84]

Why not? Annihilation the topic of this thread.

Why isn't the word annihilation in the Bible ?

 

[ozso]

A person can't endure punishment if they don't exist . A person cant feel punishment if they don't exist. A person that doesn't exist cant be punished. You can't punish someone that doesn't exist. God's wrath is Hell. That's what Jesus saved us from. God's wrath is not eternal sleep. There is no wrath in sleep . The Bible speaks about God's love and his wrath. Wrath is the complete opposite of Resting In Peace for all eternity.

And yet the most severe punishment has always been the punishment of death ie annihilation.

 

[BurningBush84]

And yet the most severe punishment has always been the punishment of death ie annihilation.

So Jesus was annihilated ?

 

[ozso]

So Jesus was annihilated ?

Annihilate is a synonym for kill.

 

[ozso]

Why isn't the word annihilation in the Bible ?

For the same reason the word Trinity isn't in the Bible.

 

[BurningBush84]

Annihilate is a synonym for kill.

I thought annihilate means to end their existence forever ? make it disappear forever

 

[ozso]

That is incorrect.

Wrong.

1906 Jewish Encyclopedia - Gehenna​

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, ​

That's what I wrote: "Gehenna is in reference to the Valley of Ben Hinnom." And I posted scripture from Jeremiah and 2 Kings.

 

[BurningBush84]

For the same reason the word Trinity isn't in the Bible.

But you believe that the word destruction and destroy always means annihilation ?