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Annihilation=No Wrath

BurningBush84

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You're still deflecting and avoiding answering the question. Is Matthew 25:31-46, especially the whole conclusion in verse 46, literal or figurative?

I let scripture interpret scripture. Obviously we are human beings not actual sheep or goats . I don't believe one good work saves if we die an unbeliever . Even your John 3:16 says you have to believe, so does Mark 16:16 and others
 
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ozso

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I let scripture interpret scripture. Obviously we are human beings not actual sheep or goats . I don't believe one good work saves if we die an unbeliever . Even your John 3:16 says you have to believe, so does Mark 16:16 and others
So your conclusion then is that Matthew 25:31-46, and verse 46 itself is figurative. Correct?
 
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trophy33

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"..... but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord." Romans 12:19

"........their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them". Deuteronomy 32:35

Annihilation seems very peaceful, the total opposite of experiencing wrath. Annihilation is basically resting in eternal peace, a peaceful soothing eternal sleep. Annihilation means the wicked unbelievers wont have to endure any punishment in the afterlife. Annihilation seems like more of a blessing than a curse. Annihilation seems more like Gods grace rather than his wrath. If your trying to convince people that Gods wrath is peaceful eternal sleep, then Gods wrath is a gracious peaceful reward for the wicked. Absolutely no eternal consequences for the wicked unbeliever. Eternal sleep is a gift, not a consequence, not a punishment. No reason to fear Gods wrath. If you don't go to Heaven it wont matter because you wont know what your missing, you wont feel regret, remorse or pain, you wont feel anything. Is that what the Bible really teaches ??
Non-existence is not peaceful and its not sleep. Its being non-existent. That is the eternal consequence.

Biblical wrath always had its highest form in death, there is no example of God ordering torturing.

Also, we are supposed to walk in light as God is light. Its mutually exclusive with an idea of torturing. If we cannot torture somebody when we are in light, why do you suppose God will?
 
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Der Alte

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You use it so much I was hoping you'd tell me. Do those who whatever for someone go away to eternal life? If not, what does Jesus mean? Surely you've figured out that part of a verse you use so much.
That one out-of-context verse does not/cannot contradict any other verses. If it is true that all an ungodly sinner has to do is help one person one time and they will be saved then we might as well throw out the rest of the Bible. Unless you can show me one other vs., 2 or more would be better, which supports the interpretation that all a sinner has to do to be saved is help one person one time. I'm waiting. Have you thrown out the rest of your Bible yet?
 
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Der Alte

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The alternative is that the righteous, and the wicked, both have eternal life.
The rich man had some kind of conscious awareness, he could see, hear, speak and feel but I don't think I would call it eternal life.
 
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trophy33

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The rich man had some kind of conscious awareness, he could see, hear, speak and feel but I don't think I would call it eternal life.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is placed between other parables (Lk 15-16). They are also depicted as having physical bodies and needs, after death, which is unexpected in afterlife. This text is also consistent with other warnings about trusting in riches.

The case is unclear if it should be considered to be a real history or an allegory.
 
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BurningBush84

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Non-existence is not peaceful and its not sleep. Its being non-existent. That is the eternal consequence.

Biblical wrath always had its highest form in death, there is no example of God ordering torturing.

Also, we are supposed to walk in light as God is light. Its mutually exclusive with an idea of torturing. If we cannot torture somebody when we are in light, why do you suppose God will?

Revelation 21:4 indirectly proves that annihilation is the 2nd best gift mankind could ever receive.

"There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

You get the same thing with annihilation. Revelation 21:4 proves annihilation is a great gift. 2nd only to Heaven
 
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BurningBush84

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The alternative is that the righteous, and the wicked, both have eternal life.

Revelation 21:4 indirectly proves annihilation is the 2nd greatest gift mankind could ever receive.

"There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

That's what annihilation gives you. Therefore annihilation is the total opposite of a punishment. It's the 2nd greatest gift God could give mankind.
 
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Der Alte

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The story of the rich man and Lazarus is placed between other parables (Lk 15-16). They are also depicted as having physical bodies and needs, after death, which is unexpected in afterlife. This text is also consistent with other warnings about trusting in riches.
The case is unclear if it should be considered to be a real history or an allegory.
All uncontested parables refer to anonymous people, a certain man, a certain widow, a rich landowner etc. Lazarus and the rich man may be some figure of speech but it is not a parable. A parable has a specific format something unknown/not understood is explained by comparison with something known/understood.
Only Lazarus and the rich man refers to actual historical persons by name, Abraham and Moses. If Abraham was not in the place Jesus mentioned and did not speak the words Jesus quoted then Jesus was lying. The five ECF who quoted Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.
1) Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning
2) Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
3) Tertullian IX A Treatise On The Soul Chap. VII [A.D. 145-220.
4) The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
5) Methodius . [A.D. 260-312] XIX he Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III. [A.D. 260-312]​
 
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trophy33

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All uncontested parables refer to anonymous people, a certain man, a certain widow, a rich landowner etc. Lazarus and the rich man may be some figure of speech but it is not a parable. A parable has a specific format something unknown/not understood is explained by comparison with something known/understood.
Only Lazarus and the rich man refers to actual historical persons by name, Abraham and Moses. If Abraham was not in the place Jesus mentioned and did not speak the words Jesus quoted then Jesus was lying. The five ECF who quoted Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.

1) Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning

2) Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1

3) Tertullian IX A Treatise On The Soul Chap. VII [A.D. 145-220.

4) The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics

5) Methodius . [A.D. 260-312] XIX he Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III. [A.D. 260-312]
Its unclear if its an allegory or not, its an unusual format in any case.

I would not base any theology on its specifics, except of the point of Jesus - that riches in this life will not guarantee us the paradise in the afterlife.
 
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ozso

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Revelation 21:4 indirectly proves that annihilation is the 2nd best gift mankind could ever receive.

"There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

You get the same thing with annihilation. Revelation 21:4 proves annihilation is a great gift. 2nd only to Heaven
When you have to leave out the parts of that passage which pertain to what only the living in Heaven can experience, you're quite obviously posting a cherry pick straw grasp.

Were you hoping I and others wouldn't read the rest of the staring verses of Revelation 21 for context?
 
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trophy33

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Revelation 21:4 indirectly proves that annihilation is the 2nd best gift mankind could ever receive.

"There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

You get the same thing with annihilation. Revelation 21:4 proves annihilation is a great gift. 2nd only to Heaven
I probably do not understand your point or reasoning...
 
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ozso

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The rich man had some kind of conscious awareness, he could see, hear, speak and feel but I don't think I would call it eternal life.
First of all most if not all damnationists agree that the Hades the rich man is in, is a temporary holding pin, until the Great White Throne Judgement takes pace on Judgement Day.

Also most of not all damnationists say that hell is eternal conscious punishment. Conscious means alive. Therefore they have eternal life.
 
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Der Alte

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Its unclear if its an allegory or not, its an unusual format in any case.
I would not base any theology on its specifics, except of the point of Jesus - that riches in this life will not guarantee us the paradise in the afterlife.
Many people are not aware that the rich man violated a specific commandment. Lazarus didn't even get the crumbs from the rich man's table.
Deuteronomy 15:7-8
(7) If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
(8) But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.​
 
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Der Alte

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First of all most if not all damnationists agree that the Hades the rich man is in, is a temporary holding pin, until the Great White Throne Judgement takes pace on Judgement Day.
Also most of not all damnationists say that hell is eternal conscious punishment. Conscious means alive. Therefore they have eternal life.
The rich man was in hades tormented in flames and could not leave. "Aionios" is not restricted to length of time but also quality. Some kind of conscious awareness is not necessarily "eternal life."
 
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trophy33

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The rich man was in hades tormented in flames and could not leave. "Aionios" is not restricted to length of time but also quality. Some kind of conscious awareness is not necessarily "eternal life."
Hades is a Greek mythology concept, though. Not Jewish, Jews had sheol - a sleeping state without being awake, just waiting for resurrection in the last days. Being tormented in the afterlife/sheol is an unknown concept to Jews.

This is another indicator that the story is not theological in its specifics. Its so foreign to Jewish concepts that I would even say its possibly an insertion.
 
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ozso

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That one out-of-context verse does not/cannot contradict any other verses.
Then why do you use it so often?
If it is true that all an ungodly sinner has to do is help one person one time and they will be saved then we might as well throw out the rest of the Bible. Unless you can show me one other vs., 2 or more would be better, which supports the interpretation that all a sinner has to do to be saved is help one person one time. I'm waiting. Have you thrown out the rest of your Bible yet?
The context of Matthew 25:46 is in context with the rest of the entire story in Matthew 25:31-46. Now you seem to be saying it is figurative and not literal. Correct?
 
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ozso

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The rich man was in hades tormented in flames and could not leave.
Nevertheless according to all the damnationists I've ever heard, it is a temporary abode.
"Aionios" is not restricted to length of time but also quality.
True, aionios zoe can refer to an idyllic life. It's been said that when the rich young ruler was asking Jesus how he might obtain eternal life, aionios zoe, he was asking how he can obtain idyllic life.

However usually what's translated as everlasting life, is contrasted with death. Not good life vs bad life.
Some kind of conscious awareness is not necessarily "eternal life."
Some kind of vague conscious awareness isn't what's described in Luke 16:19-31 though. The rich man is described as being very acutely aware, very conscious, very much alive. He felt pain, craved water, recognized Lazarus and Abraham, understood what Abraham said, he remembered his five brothers, tried to strike a bargain, pleaded for them etc. All indications are that he was just as alive as you and me.

And if that's to be his eternal state, then that means he and all like him have eternal life, they do not ever perish, they are never ever put to death ie never annihilated. Either they are eventually put to death, or they are eternally alive. Take your pick.
 
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ozso

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Hades is a Greek mythology concept, though. Not Jewish, Jews had sheol - a sleeping state without being awake, just waiting for resurrection in the last days. Being tormented in the afterlife/sheol is an unknown concept to Jews.

This is another indicator that the story is not theological in its specifics. Its so foreign to Jewish concepts that I would even say its possibly an insertion.
There's a possibility the the scribes and Pharisees incorporated unscriptural teachings regarding this. Maybe they did it to use as a scare tactic to enforce all the rules and traditions they made up. Although what I heard from a well respected Rabbi theologian, is the Judaic version of hades is supposed to purge sin and only lasts one year. Which could have been the hades Jesus was referring to in Luke 16:19-31.
 
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