Annihilation=No Wrath

[BurningBush84]

I’ll be happy to reply to your questions once you have replied to mine. More often than not, throughout this thread, you have answered a question with another question. Now, that tactic was used by Jesus plenty but the question was always resolved by the authority He possessed; it was never used as a deflection.

I will answer, in good faith that you will also reciprocate, one of your questions.

“How could a loving God allow his one and only Son to be tortured to death?”

Ans: I won’t pretend to know God’s mind but the Scriptures declare it must happen to The Christ AND it pleased the Father to do so.
Isaiah 52:13-53

your turn,
blessings

The reason Jesus didn't have to suffer forever is because he was not just some good human, he was not just some innocent human, he was not just some human that never sinned. He was God himself, therefore his sufferings have such a high value that cannot be fathomed.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

The reason Jesus didn't have to suffer forever is because he was not just some good human, he was not just some innocent human, he was not just some human that never sinned. He was God himself, therefore his sufferings have such a high value that cannot be fathomed.

The above response is the result, when one allows himself to be pigeon holed in to a theological concept rather than a biblical truth. Your answer is born from your carnal mind and not the Scriptures. Perhaps a better reply might include a little humility, something like I’m sorry but I have never considered the issue you have pointed out with my theological concept. Allow me to think more on this matter before I simply make a fool of myself AND the Scriptures.

I have been where you are now and I understand your passion. I suggest you turn to the Lord … let Him know how confused you currently are and ask Him to give you the truth AND the Grace to accept and embrace whatever his reply. Place all your theological musings on the table and ask Him to burn them up like the chaff that is squeezing the life out of you. Try it … it is really very liberating to walk in the truth personally revealed to you from the unfathomable God you love and seek to serve.

blessings,

 

[BurningBush84]

The above response is the result, when one allows himself to be pigeon holed in to a theological concept rather than a biblical truth. Your answer is born from your carnal mind and not the Scriptures. Perhaps a better reply might include a little humility, something like I’m sorry but I have never considered the issue you have pointed out with my theological concept. Allow me to think more on this matter before I simply make a fool of myself AND the Scriptures.

I have been where you are now and I understand your passion. I suggest you turn to the Lord … let Him know how confused you currently are and ask Him to give you the truth AND the Grace to accept and embrace whatever his reply. Place all your theological musings on the table and ask Him to burn them up like the chaff that is squeezing the life out of you. Try it … it is really very liberating to walk in the truth personally revealed to you from the unfathomable God you love and seek to serve.

blessings,

Many DIFFERENT denominations of Christianity with DIFFERENT beliefs all AGREE that Hell or the Lake of fire is eternal conscience torment.

 

[JulieB67]

or the Lake of fire is eternal conscience torment.

Ive never seen the word annihilate in any version of the bible. And to say destruction and annihilation mean the exact same thing is very naive

Do you not understand that the word perish/destroy in the Greek means to destroy "fully and utterly"? That's the very first definition. You can cling to other meanings to hold onto your doctrine if you choose but the meaning is pretty clear.

And you don't believe Christ's own words?

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Christ himself tells us what the Lake of Fire is. You are changing the very definition of the word "death" And this teaching coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28. It's either life or death. And that's how it's played out through the entire Bible. The wages of sin is death. And common sense alone tells us that the first death is the death of the body and the second death would be the death of the soul. It makes no sense to even have a 'second" death if that were not the case. You are stating in essence that there is really only one death, the death of the body. Which is not what Christ teaches.

Also you don't believe these words?

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

You really need to let these verses sink in. Hell and the Lake of Fire are a former thing. They are done away with, they have passed away. God is a consuming fire. Which is why there will be no more crying or sorrow, etc.

Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

Let that sink in, he makes all things new. It's a brand new everything. The former things are no more. To say otherwise means you don't believe he makes all things new. All means all. You don't believe the former things are passed away.

Here's an earlier verse that you need to let sink in that gives us the very nature of God

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

He doesn't want anyone to even perish (die) that's why he's so long suffering and yet you believe he wants to torture someone for an eternity. You can't reconcile those two things, it's not possible.

Many DIFFERENT denominations of Christianity with DIFFERENT beliefs all AGREE that Hell or the Lake of fire is eternal conscience torment.

Just as many don't believe it to be so. That's not an argument. I'd rather go with Christ's teachings on the subject.

 

[BurningBush84]

Do you not understand that the word perish/destroy in the Greek means to destroy "fully and utterly"? That's the very first definition. You can cling to other meanings to hold onto your doctrine if you choose but the meaning is pretty clear.

And you don't believe Christ's own words?

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Christ himself tells us what the Lake of Fire is. You are changing the very definition of the word "death" And this teaching coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28. It's either life or death. And that's how it's played out through the entire Bible. The wages of sin is death. And common sense alone tells us that the first death is the death of the body and the second death would be the death of the soul. It makes no sense to even have a 'second" death if that were not the case. You are stating in essence that there is really only one death, the death of the body. Which is not what Christ teaches.

Also you don't believe these words?

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

You really need to let these verses sink in. Hell and the Lake of Fire are a former thing. They are done away with, they have passed away. God is a consuming fire. Which is why there will be no more crying or sorrow, etc.

Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

Let that sink in, he makes all things new. It's a brand new everything. The former things are no more. To say otherwise means you don't believe he makes all things new. All means all. You don't believe the former things are passed away.

Here's an earlier verse that you need to let sink in that gives us the very nature of God

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

He doesn't want anyone to even perish (die) that's why he's so long suffering and yet you believe he wants to torture someone for an eternity. You can't reconcile those two things, it's not possible.


Just as many don't believe it to be so. That's not an argument. I'd rather go with Christ's teachings on the subject.

I don't believe God's wrath is something peaceful like eternal sleep . Eternal sleep aka is a blessing not a punishment.

The fact that most denominations believe in ECT should tell you something. They disagree on so many things yet agree that Hell is ECT.

Why ? Because ECT is so clearly taught in the Bible they can't deny it.

 

[JulieB67]

The fact that most denominations believe in ECT should tell you something.

Being in the majority means nothing when it comes to the Bible. Christ's teachings about the path being narrow and few find it is a prime example. Many believe in a pretrib rapture as well and it is not taught in the Bible.

Because ECT is so clearly taught in the Bible they can't deny it.

So again, you do not believe Christ's words when he himself calls it the second death. Second being after the first and death, meaning to perish? You can't answer that very question.

Have you even read the entire bible? I know many Christians that haven't. I didn't until about 21 years ago in it's entirety. One can see the very nature of God and it is not to burn and torture someone for an eternity. As I proved with scripture he doesn't even want someone to perish.
And why is ECT not taught in the Old Testament? It describes the wicked being turned to ashes and stubble. Which again, coincides with Christ's teachings. And hell is not the same thing as the Lake of Fire which comes into play at Judgement Day.

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."

That is the second death. Nothing will be left of them. You don't call that punishment but you are not God. To not be able to participate in the enternity is punishment. If you were lining up getting ready to be destroyed fully you would think differently at that moment.

And again, a lifetime of sin as a reward is nothing when compared to an eternity. Life is very short.

 

[BurningBush84]

Being in the majority means nothing when it comes to the Bible. Christ's teachings about the path being narrow and few find it is a prime example. Many believe in a pretrib rapture as well and it is not taught in the Bible.


So again, you do not believe Christ's words when he himself calls it the second death. Second being after the first and death, meaning to perish? You can't answer that very question.

Have you even read the entire bible? I know many Christians that haven't. I didn't until about 21 years ago in it's entirety. One can see the very nature of God and it is not to burn and torture someone for an eternity. As I proved with scripture he doesn't even want someone to perish.
And why is ECT not taught in the Old Testament? It describes the wicked being turned to ashes and stubble. Which again, coincides with Christ's teachings. And hell is not the same thing as the Lake of Fire which comes into play at Judgement Day.

Malachi 4:1 "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave then neither root nor branch."

That is the second death. Nothing will be left of them. You don't call that punishment but you are not God. To not be able to participate in the enternity is punishment. If you were lining up getting ready to be destroyed fully you would think differently at that moment.

And again, a lifetime of sin as a reward is nothing when compared to an eternity. Life is very short.

Why do so many DIFFERENT denominations DISAGREE on so many things in the Bible yet most of these different denominations AGREE in ECT . Why do they agree on that but not all the other things ????

Because ECT is clearly taught in the Bible it's not even debatable except for people who belong in the Watch Tower Society or SDA.

 

[BurningBush84]

Annihilation means God's wrath is eternal sleep. Jesus suffered to save mankind from eternal sleep ????? Wow !! What an insult to Jesus.

No reason to fear God's wrath , because his wrath is eternal sleep. Eternal sleep is a blessing not a punishment.

No reason to fear God or his wrath if the ultimate punishment is eternal sleep. Peaceful eternal sleep, that's Hitlers punishment .

 

[BurningBush84]

ECT in Hell is eternal destruction.

ECT in Hades is eternal destruction.

ECT in the lake of fire is eternal destruction.

Jesus saves people from ECT not from eternal sleep.

What is a greater Savior ? One who saves mankind from eternal sleep or one who saves mankind from ECT in the lake of fire ???? Is not Jesus the greatest form of Savior ?

 

[BurningBush84]

You cannot have different levels different degrees of annihilation.

However the Bible speaks of people receiving punishment that VARIES in severity.
(Luke 12:47-48).

Annihilation does not and can not vary in severity. Your either Annihilatied or your not.

 

[JulieB67]

What is a greater Savior ? One who saves mankind from eternal sleep or one who saves mankind from ECT in the lake of fire ???? Is not Jesus the greatest form of Savior ?

Christ defeated death and the purpose for us is not to perish as well or suffer the second death. The most known verse in the bible is John 3 :16and it's either perish or everlasting life. There is the gulf at this moment that Christ describes but that is not the Lake of Fire. Judgement Day has not arrived yet.

But believe what you will.

 

[BurningBush84]

Satan loves to diminish and minimize Christ's saving work. And that's exactly what Annihilation Theology does.

"Jesus didn't save you from ECT, he only saved you from Resting In Peace forever aka Annihilation"

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Why do so many DIFFERENT denominations DISAGREE on so many things in the Bible yet most of these different denominations AGREE in ECT . Why do they agree on that but not all the other things ????

Because ECT is clearly taught in the Bible it's not even debatable except for people who belong in the Watch Tower Society or SDA.

Well my brother, you are most certainly in an abundance of like minded company. And, as to date, for as long as I have asked the question I asked you, not a single person has had an answer. Not one! Bottom line … you condemn everyone who rejects the Gospel to this horrific place you call hell. This condemnation of yours is based upon men rejecting the substitutional sacrifice Christ made on their behalf But rejected. No?

Honestly, if I believed in the Jesus you believe in I would be worried … apparently, Your jesus loved you enough to die a horrible death for you but not enough to take it all the way and suffer the eternal conscious torment you deserve and he approved. Oh wait, now I know why you refuse to let your jesus die eternal conscious torment; because if he did suffer eternal conscious torment he could never be resurrected! Man dude, your theological house of cards is imploding … I could go on and on and on about your saviors many broken promises but I’m pretty sure you understand where I’m taking this theological construct you have built for yourself.

Please take time to think through your reply before responding … because you my friend, have most definitely run out of anything fresh to say.

blessings,

 

[BurningBush84]

The punishment for rejecting Jesus is eternal sleep ???? Jesus only saved mankind from eternal sleep ??? That's your savior ?

My Savior is God himself who suffered hell on earth for mankind's sake . My Savior saves me from eternal punishment NOT eternal peaceful sleep.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

The punishment for rejecting Jesus is eternal sleep ???? Jesus only saved mankind from eternal sleep ??? That's your savior ?

My Savior is God himself who suffered hell on earth for mankind's sake . My Savior saves me from eternal punishment NOT eternal peaceful sleep.

So now, if I understand you correctly your new position has moved from ECT to hell is on earth? Well now we are getting somewhere! I swear brother, you are just full of surprises … Now, at least your jesus is experiencing hell, on man’s behalf, in limited duration. Thus logically, all who don’t believe will only have to suffer in limited duration too. Good progress!

blessings

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

BurningBush84 … I am not mocking you but I am trying to provoke your thought process just as a brother in Christ, Kings Kidd, did for me. God will not think less of you for questioning … critical thinking is honorable and valuable. Do not seek to find comfort, assurance and community by agreeing with the masses.

The LOGOS, who is full of Wisdom, Grace and Truth, is empowering you to think independently of those with whom you align yourself. Orthodoxy my brother is not your friend or teacher; those two relationship roles are being offered to you by the Jesus of whom you are so passionate. Can’t think of a better Friend OR Teacher, can you?

blessings,

P.S. I will now bow out respectfully …

 

[Jipsah]

I don't believe God's wrath is something peaceful like eternal sleep . Eternal sleep aka is a blessing not a punishment.

Your opinion is duly noted, and I accept it as worth the price charged. You think unrepentant sinners should be tortured forever because that's what you'd do if you were in charge. So noted.

St. Paul says the wages of sin is death. He outranks you by fair margin, so I'll go with his declaration rather than yours.

The fact that most denominations believe in ECT should tell you something.

The the truth is determined by a show of hands.

Why ? Because ECT is so clearly taught in the Bible they can't deny it.

The wages of sin is eternal conscious torment... oh, wait. Oh yeah, the soul that sins will be tortured forever... no, that doesn't sound right either. Fear Him who can torture you in hell forever... nah, that still isn't right.

I dunno mate, it sounds like God might actually be too meciful to suit your doctrine. He doesn't seem to want anyone to roast in Hell. He even went so far as to take o human form, and experience torture and death for our sakes.

Hard to see Him going through all that and then saying "I'm still gonna have most of you lot tortured forever because you're really disgusting and I hate you so much that I'm not letting you get off with simply dying, even if it's a ghastly death. I want you to suffer, horribly, forever, because you're vile and loathesome and I'm gonna take a lot of pleasure in watching yoiu burn." But that's how you see it, innit? The screams of the tormented will be music to the ears of the blessed, and bring greater glory to God, won't they.

 

[BurningBush84]

So if I make up my own religion, and I'm the only one who believes it, that makes it Truth because it's the new "minority" ???

Why do most denominations disagree on so many issues yet believe in ECT ??? Because it's so clearly taught in the Bible they can't deny it.

There is NO bias because they are different denominations with different interpretations yet they all agree on ECT . Why ? How ?

Because it's clearly taught in the Bible.

God's wrath is eternal peaceful sleep????

Talk about being brainwashed .

 

[Jipsah]

Talk about being brainwashed .

You're right. God so loved the world that He's gonna have most of the people He ever created subjected to ghastly torture for all eternity. That's why He came, and lived amongst us, and died on the cross. I mean, that's what you would do, innit? "Burn baby burn! Scream, you stinking sinners! This s what you get! " Right?

 

[Jipsah]

So if I make up my own religion, and I'm the only one who believes it, that makes it Truth because it's the new "minority" ???

I'm sorry, but did that mean anything in English?

Why do most denominations disagree on so many issues yet believe in ECT ??? Because it's so clearly taught in the Bible they can't deny it.

Truth established by a show of hands. Just about as I'd expect.

God's wrath is eternal peaceful sleep????

If that's your understandng of "annihilation".

Talk about being brainwashed .

Quoth he who assumes that a majority vote always corresponds to the will of God.