Annihilation=No Wrath

[Der Alte]

Hades is a Greek mythology concept, though. Not Jewish, Jews had sheol - a sleeping state without being awake, just waiting for resurrection in the last days. Being tormented in the afterlife/sheol is an unknown concept to Jews.
This is another indicator that the story is not theological in its specifics. Its so foreign to Jewish concepts that I would even say its possibly an insertion.

In the 225 BC Septuagint Greek translation of the OT sheol was written as "hades" and did you happen to notice that Jesus used hades referring to a specific place with tormenting flames?
Here is a link to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gehenna. As early as 800 BC there was a belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment which the Jews called both Ge Himnom and sheol, written in the LXX and NT as gehenna and hades.

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[ozso]

In the 225 BC Septuagint Greek translation of the OT sheol was written as "hades" and did you happen to notice that Jesus used hades referring to a specific place with tormenting flames?
Here is a link to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gehenna. As early as 800 BC there was a belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment which the Jews called both Ge Himnom and sheol, written in the LXX and NT as gehenna and hades.

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

What in there is a reference of a belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment that dates back to 800 BC?

 

[Der Alte]

There's a possibility the the scribes and Pharisees incorporated unscriptural teachings regarding this. Maybe they did it to use as a scare tactic to enforce all the rules and traditions they made up. Although what I heard from a well respected Rabbi theologian, is the Judaic version of hades is supposed to purge sin and only lasts one year. Which could have been the hades Jesus was referring to in Luke 16:19-31.

What modern Jews believe about hell etc. is not necessarily relevant. Link to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia which documents that as early as 800 yrs BC there was a belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment which they called both Ge Hinnom and Sheol, written in the 225 BC LXX as Gehenna and hades.
That some people would only spend one year in Gehenna or sheol was only one of the beliefs.

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[BNR32FAN]

You probably wouldn't do either. All memory of those who didn't make it would be gone. "I never knew you."

While I do believe that having no recollection of this world is a possibility I don’t see that this particular verse from Matthew 7 actually supports the idea. The term “I never knew you” is referring to never having an intimate relationship with Christ. It doesn’t mean that He doesn’t remember them or didn’t know who they are. The word is used similarly in Matthew 1:25

“and knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1‬:‭25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Surely we can agree that Joseph knew who Mary was before she gave birth to Christ.

 

[Der Alte]

What in there is a reference of a belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment that dates back to 800 BC?

Did you even read the article? Here is a brief quote.

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).​

And before you even think about objecting your opinion about the quotes is not relevant.

 

[Der Alte]

While I do believe that having no recollection of this world is a possibility I don’t see that this particular verse from Matthew 7 actually supports the idea. The term “I never knew you” is referring to never having an intimate relationship with Christ. It doesn’t mean that He doesn’t remember them or didn’t know who they are. The word is used similarly in Matthew 1:25
“and knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1‬:‭25‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Surely we can agree that Joseph knew who Mary was before she gave birth to Christ.

But when Jesus said "I never knew you" He did not mean that I might know you by and by.

 

[ozso]

Did you even read the article?

In the past I went over what you used to cut and paste of it.

Here is a brief quote.

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).​

And before you even think about objecting your opinion about the quotes is not relevant.

Judith was written around 100 BC. That doesn't establish a belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment that dates back to 800 BC. Just a 100 BC story that takes place around 800 BC. And while the pseudographical Book of Enoch takes place in Enoch's time, it was written around 200 BC.

Like I said, The scribes and Pharisees probably incorporated unscriptural teachings regarding this. Maybe they did it to use as a scare tactic to enforce all the rules and traditions they made up. Which could have been the hades Jesus was referring to in Luke 16:19-31.

 

[BurningBush84]

When you have to leave out the parts of that passage which pertain to what only the living in Heaven can experience, you're quite obviously posting a cherry pick straw grasp.

Were you hoping I and others wouldn't read the rest of the staring verses of Revelation 21 for context?

When you have to leave out the parts of that passage which pertain to what only the living in Heaven can experience, you're quite obviously posting a cherry pick straw grasp.

Were you hoping I and others wouldn't read the rest of the staring verses of Revelation 21 for context?

Revelation 21:4 is describing the unique benefits of Heaven . People quote that passage all the time at funerals. Annihilation has the same benefits described in Rev 21:4.

Will the annihilatited every cry again ? No .
Will the annihilatited have to worry about death anymore ? No.
Will the annihilatited every feel pain again ? No.

Therefore the annihilatited get almost the same benefits as those in heaven.

Unless you think Revelation 21:4 is describing eternal punishment.

 

[BurningBush84]

I probably do not understand your point or reasoning...

Revelation 21:4 is describing the unique benefits of Heaven . People quote that passage all the time at funerals. Annihilation has the same benefits described in Rev 21:4.

Will the annihilatited every cry again ? No .
Will the annihilatited have to worry about death anymore ? No.
Will the annihilatited every feel pain again ? No.

Therefore the annihilatited get almost the same benefits as those in heaven .

Unless you think Rev 21:4 is describing eternal punishment.

 

[ozso]

What modern Jews believe about hell etc.

A while ago I invited you to demonstrate by way of your own expert in Judaism, that the Judaic belief in hell was any different in Jesus' time. So far you haven't come through on that.

 

[trophy33]

In the 225 BC Septuagint Greek translation of the OT sheol was written as "hades" and did you happen to notice that Jesus used hades referring to a specific place with tormenting flames?
Here is a link to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia article on Gehenna. As early as 800 BC there was a belief in a place of fiery eternal punishment which the Jews called both Ge Himnom and sheol, written in the LXX and NT as gehenna and hades.

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

Gehenna is not hades, though.

Hades and tartaros are Greek concepts, sheol and gehenna are Jewish concepts. Gehenna was a valley where trash was being destroyed by fire. The trash was not supposed to be eternal, only the fire was, for new and new trash.

NT being written in Greek might use Greek concepts to present the teachings of Jesus to the Greek/Roman readers, but its uncertain if Jesus used Greek concepts in his teachings. For example the apostle John did (the concept of divine Logos). But its possible that when Jesus said "sheol", the Greek authors of Gospels used "hades", as it was the closest available concept for the readers to understand.

 

[ozso]

Revelation 21:4 is describing the unique benefits of Heaven . People quote that passage all the time at funerals. Annihilation has the same benefits described in Rev 21:4.

Will the annihilatited every cry again ? No .
Will the annihilatited have to worry about death anymore ? No.
Will the annihilatited every feel pain again ? No.

Therefore the annihilatited get almost the same benefits as those in heaven.

Unless you think Revelation 21:4 is describing eternal punishment.

It seems rather absurd to compare what will be experienced in the Kingdom of Heaven to nonexistence. Those in the Kingdom of Heaven will be able to experience joy in such things and be thankful for it. The annihilated wouldn't. Everything will be given to those in the in the Kingdom of Heaven. Everything would be taken away from the annihilated.

 

[BurningBush84]

It seems rather absurd to compare what will be experienced in the Kingdom of Heaven to nonexistence. Those in the Kingdom of Heaven will be able to experience joy in such things and be thankful for it. The annihilated wouldn't. Everything will be given to those in the in the Kingdom of Heaven. Everything would be taken away from the annihilated.

Will the annihilatited every cry again ? No .
Will the annihilatited have to worry about death anymore ? No.
Will the annihilatited every feel pain again ? No.

Therefore they get the exact same unique benefits described in Rev 21:4

 

[trophy33]

There's a possibility the the scribes and Pharisees incorporated unscriptural teachings regarding this. Maybe they did it to use as a scare tactic to enforce all the rules and traditions they made up. Although what I heard from a well respected Rabbi theologian, is the Judaic version of hades is supposed to purge sin and only lasts one year. Which could have been the hades Jesus was referring to in Luke 16:19-31.

I have no idea how to verify the teachings of Jewish rabbis, though. Also, they have a well known historical bias against Christianity, so I would take their explanations of the New Testament into consideration only after presenting a solid evidence.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But when Jesus said "I never knew you" He did not mean that I might know you by and by.

I’m not sure what you mean. I imagine what He’s describing will take place on Judgement Day. So if He doesn’t know them by then He never will.

 

[ozso]

Revelation 21:4 is describing the unique benefits of Heaven . People quote that passage all the time at funerals. Annihilation has the same benefits described in Rev 21:4.

Will the annihilatited every cry again ? No .
Will the annihilatited have to worry about death anymore ? No.
Will the annihilatited every feel pain again ? No.

Therefore the annihilatited get almost the same benefits as those in heaven .

Unless you think Rev 21:4 is describing eternal punishment.

If God gave you the choice of being in the Kingdom of Heaven, or being annihilated, I seriously doubt you'd say it doesn't matter because both offer the the same benefits. By your reasoning being in a coma must also be like being in the Kingdom of Heaven.

"Heaven, it's just like being in a coma". Quite catchy.

 

[trophy33]

Revelation 21:4 is describing the unique benefits of Heaven . People quote that passage all the time at funerals. Annihilation has the same benefits described in Rev 21:4.

Will the annihilatited every cry again ? No .
Will the annihilatited have to worry about death anymore ? No.
Will the annihilatited every feel pain again ? No.

Therefore the annihilatited get almost the same benefits as those in heaven .

Unless you think Rev 21:4 is describing eternal punishment.

These are benefits only to living, thinking and experiencing creatures. Not dying, not feeling pain etc has no benefit for somebody who does not exist.

 

[ozso]

I have no idea how to verify the teachings of Jewish rabbis, though. Also, they have a well known historical bias against Christianity, so I would take their explanations of the New Testament into consideration only after presenting a solid evidence.

What's being about is in regard to an old lengthy debate. You'd have to go through all of it to get what's being talked about between Der Alte and myself regarding Jewish belief in hell.

 

[trophy33]

What's being about is in regard to an old lengthy debate. You'd have to go through all of it to get what's being talked about between Der Alate and myself regarding Jewish belief in hell.

Ok, I thought its an isolated post meant as a response to my post. Nevermind, then.

 

[Der Alte]

I’m not sure what you mean. I imagine what He’s describing will take place on Judgement Day. So if He doesn’t know them by then He never will.

Some folks believe that when Jesus said, "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." that He really didn't mean that.