ALL Scriptures For and Against Once Saved Always Saved

[Southernscotty]

Kind of weird to sing the old Hymn "Blessed assurance" when there are doubts about salvation isn't it?
LOL

 

[St_Worm2]

Thank you, as I said I can never go against Christians who really believe like you do. I personally think one can lose salvation. But that should not prevent us from being brothers in Christ, especially since I think we can have the Spirit but not have always the doctrinal issues the same.

When I became born again I was still a Catholic lol. God knew my heart and taught me the truth with time.

I would be interested in discussing with you one day. You seem like a reasonable person.

God bless

Hi Asaph, question, when you speak of losing salvation, do you really mean that we can choose to walk away from our salvation (that's what most of my Arminian/Free Will friends believe), or do you believe that we lose our salvation whenever we sin? (or do you believe something else?) Thanks!

As for the rest, doctrine doesn't determine whether or not someone is my brother in Christ (well, something like OSAS does not anyway), but it can make for lively discussions (that I hope are beneficial to all, of course). The ugliness of some of the debates around this place end up benefiting no one IMHO, and I believe they are done in violation of the clear teaching of Scripture .. e.g. Matthew 5:16; Matthew 7:12, 1 Corinthians 13:1; James 1:19-20; 1 Peter 3:15....

If you'd like to PM me to discuss OSAS privately you are welcome to do so

Hey, just FYI, I spent thirty years going to church "thinking" that I was a Christian as a result, until the day I actually became one that is Also, the Lord used two people in particular to bring me to Him, and the one He used most directly was an ex-RC who had recently been born again.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Geralt]

- you cannot lose something you did not earn

- if your salvation depended on your performance, it is no longer grace

- when God saves people, He also CHANGES them. apostasy is only for those who were NEVER truly converted by the Holy Spirit.

- True conversion means God is involved, changing the person. this affects desires-> which translates to will-> which translates to actions. those who revert back to their former self, chose to go back because, sin is their greatest desire that gives them satisfaction. a true/converted believer's highest desire is to know and love christ, they will never deny christ. they may stumble into sin, but they always go forward, moving towards christ.

 

[MDC]

You can forfit your inheritance by disobedience and willful sin yes .

Salvation is not a cooperative effort. By believing this, you have nullified grace and show no faith in the gospel

 

[Asaph George]

Inheritance =/= salvation

scriptures?

 

[Asaph George]

First and most importantly, welcome to the Body of Christ!

Are you under the impression that those two things are contradictory -- OSAS and enduring until the end? I see nothing contradictory there at all.

Yes, Philippians 2:12 says "...work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Not "work for," but "work out." Those two have very different meanings. Ephesians 2:10 sheds a little light on this, as does James 2:14-26

See 1 John 2:19

I never argue argue against OSAS who are into Perseverance of the Saints. Even though that is not biblical.

If one believes that one has to endure until the end, then God bless them. If they are going to apply that to themselves of course.

I know all about the passage in 1 John 2:19 which is talking about AntiChrists. And how OSAS believers stretch this passage out to make it about ALL believers are false brothers.

That is a big stretch.

We have to make everything fit. I have studied both scriptures on both sides:
Once Saved Always Saved

Philippians 2:12 - yes we have to work it out not for.. Exactly. But there is no reason to fear and tremble if it is only loss of reward.

God bless you

 

[Asaph George]

- you cannot lose something you did not earn

- if your salvation depended on your performance, it is no longer grace

- when God saves people, He also CHANGES them. apostasy is only for those who were NEVER truly converted by the Holy Spirit.

- True conversion means God is involved, changing the person. this affects desires-> which translates to will-> which translates to actions. those who revert back to their former self, chose to go back because, sin is their greatest desire that gives them satisfaction. a true/converted believer's highest desire is to know and love christ, they will never deny christ. they may stumble into sin, but they always go forward, moving towards christ.

That is all good but we have to look at scriptures. The whole thread is to see whether this doctrine fits with the Bible. Not whether I know what the doctrine states.

I know the other position, the question is where do you see that in the bible?

God bless you, All with love!

 

[Asaph George]

Salvation is not a cooperative effort. By believing this, you have nullified grace and show no faith in the gospel

Hello MDC,

I have wrote you a last message above, Can you reply to that message?

God bless you!

 

[Asaph George]

Kind of weird to sing the old Hymn "Blessed assurance" when there are doubts about salvation isn't it?
LOL

There are verses exhorting to keep on until the end and there are others who give hope and assurance.

The assurance comes from a constant walk in the Spirit, not from a one time repentance and experience.

God bless you!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

- you cannot lose something you did not earn

hahaha, oh really !?

I think last year over 2 million dollars in diamond rings were LOST by someone they were given to , not earned ....

 

[Asaph George]

Hi Asaph, question, when you speak of losing salvation, do you really mean that we can choose to walk away from our salvation (that's what most of my Arminian/Free Will friends believe), or do you believe that we lose our salvation whenever we sin? (or do you believe something else?) Thanks!
David

Hello St_Worm2,

Yes of course brother I am willing to discuss with anyone and I believe like you do that this issue should not divide the body even though it is very important depending on what it does to the believer.

To explain further my question, I see that there are two camps of OSAS:
1- Many think that after we are born again, we will never lose our salvation and that even if we go back deliberately to a lifestyle of sin and keep sinning wilfully.
2- Some think that after we are born again, the obedience to the Will of God and conviction of the Spirit will force the child of God to stay on the narrow road and therefore will guarantee their salvation. (irresistible grace and perseverance of the Saints).

My position is very close to camp 2, but because of many verses in the Bible and many years of study, I don't see the Bible saying that the Spirit will force. The Spirit convicts but does not force and we can resist by our will. So yes I believe that the will of man is engaged in his own salvation.

A good analogy is this: We are drowning, all of us and already under the water, God provides the rope, He pulls up, He does everything, He saves. We don't need to pull, we don't have to ask for the rope, He chooses to throw us that rope, but we have to HOLD ON. I see this countless times in the scriptures.

When it comes to names of doctrines, denominations and other labels. I stay away from them. Why? Because they are not in the Bible. The expressions: Once Saved Always Saved, Eternal security, arminianism, Calvinism, perseverance of the Saints, irresistible grace, etc.. are not in the Bible. And I am against using them even though sometimes I feel I am obliged to mention them.

So in that sense I am not an Arminian, it is even against the words of the Bible to associate with a man. We are all Christians, followers of Jesus and His words. Who is Arminius, who is Calvin, who is Paul, who is Appolos, etc.. I am interested in the truth of the Bible.

But to answer your question, yes I believe in free will of man and I believe that after a man is called and justified by the Spirit, he can still walk away willingly from salvation by turning back to a lifestyle of sin. I see that in many verses in the Bible. I am willing to go over them with you privately if interested.

I also have been studying the scriptures for MANY years. Especially in the last couple of years where it became my life. The last year, I spent a minimum of 4-5 hours every day on scriptures or prayer.

Yes we should never get angry when discussing between Christians. Why get angry and insult if we are looking for the Truth. If someone really shows me something from the Bible and shows me how I am wrong then I am willing to accept it, it has to come from the Bible however.

I try to remain humble and teachable all the time.

May God bless you brother in Christ!

 

[St_Worm2]

2- Some think that after we are born again, the obedience to the Will of God and conviction of the Spirit will force the child of God to stay on the narrow road and therefore will guarantee their salvation. (irresistible grace and perseverance of the Saints).

Our confession may be useful to you here as a place to start, because your #2 above is not how Reformed believers understand eternal security.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter XVII

Of the Perseverance of the Saints​

I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1]

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]​

A good analogy is this: We are drowning, all of us and already under the water, God provides the rope, He pulls up, He does everything, He saves. We don't need to pull, we don't have to ask for the rope, He chooses to throw us that rope, but we have to HOLD ON. I see this countless times in the scriptures.

Yes, that's what the Scriptures tell us that we are 'supposed' to do. Unfortunately, they also tell us that in our natural state .. e.g. 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:1-3, we will never choose to "hang on", such that God must step in if a remnant is to be saved/that His Son may have His promised "bride" .. e.g. Romans 3:10-12.

...to answer your question, yes I believe in free will of man and I believe that after a man is called and justified by the Spirit, he can still walk away willingly from salvation by turning back to a lifestyle of sin. I see that in many verses in the Bible. I am willing to go over them with you privately if interested.

I'm sorry to rehash this, but there is a pretty big divide (IMHO) between those who say that we can choose to "walk away" from the faith, and those who believe that we can lose our salvation (even if we don't want to walk away from Christ) because we've sinned. Are you the former, the latter (or some kind of blend of both perhaps)? Thanks!

I try to remain humble and teachable all the time.

(I try my best to do the same )

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi @Asaph George, one last question (if you don't mind), do you believe our salvation/eternal life will be secure in the age to come (IOW, in Heaven/on the New Earth), or will we still be able to freely choose to sin/choose to go to Hell if we want to, even then? Why or why not?

Thanks again!

In Christ,
David

 

[Asaph George]

Our confession may be useful to you here as a place to start, because your #2 above is not how Reformed believers understand eternal security.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter XVII

Of the Perseverance of the Saints​

I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1]

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]​

Hello brother,

As I said, I really am not too much into what confessions of faith say. This confession did not change how I view the OSAS believers and Calvinists. In summary, it is simple, they think that man has nothing to do with their salvation, that they have no free will to reject God, they think that once they are born again, they are eternally saved. That is not what I see in my Bible.

Therefore the thread is to show whether this confession or these statements are biblical. We can stay here and talk all day about confessions, beliefs or doctrines. There are many. The real question is to see whether these things fit with the Bible.

If the Bible does not contradict itself, it all has to fit. We cannot have verses contradict each other. We have to look at both sides and see where the truth lies. We have to check where words are being twisted, ignored and where things are being pushed INTO scriptures that are not really there.

So let's focus on the scriptures. Can you defend the position and your beliefs of Calvinism from the Bible. Take any passage. This is a long study, that is why I did a page on it. I spend the last year discussing with people about this and I have seen the same arguments like 10 times each.

Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine I am willing to live with fortunately. Why? Because I believe we can be born again and on the way of salvation even though we don't have the same faith. In the Bible, Paul exhorts believers to preserve the unity of the Spirit UNTIL they attain the unity of the faith. We are united in the Spirit of Christ, therefore we can believe different things sometimes. However, I believe that the more we are sanctified and taught by God, the more we get close to the true Faith.

I have looked at both sides, the other side doesn't convince me. Things are being pushed into scriptures to make them FIT with the doctrine. While on the other side, the verses are very straight forward and we have to make some weird twists to make them fit with OSAS and Calvinism.

That is why I am not convinced. I don't see it in the Bible. You are welcome to try but I have heard them all. They are always the same verses which don't talk about wilfully going to a lifestyle sin or sinning wilfully. On the other hand, there are verses that are clear that after being born and coming to the Truth, we can fall back and fall away from the faith and that to DESTRUCTION. Not mere loss of rewards. I have mentioned John 15 here, notice how people tend to escape the words. They don't want to deal with them, it is because it doesn't fit.

"Yes, that's what the Scriptures tell us that we are 'supposed' to do. Unfortunately, they also tell us that in our natural state..we will never choose to "hang on""

Yes God chooses us, while we are yet sinners, Jesus died for us. Of course we cannot in our natural state we cannot receive the things of the Spirit. That is why God QUICKENS us, but He doesn't FORCE us. We have to respond. There is such a thing as resisting the Spirit. Do you agree that we can resist the Holy Spirit? Can you answer this?

I'm sorry to rehash this, but there is a pretty big divide (IMHO) between those who say that we can choose to "walk away" from the faith, and those who believe that we can lose our salvation (even if we don't want to walk away from Christ) because we've sinned. Are you the former, the latter (or some kind of blend of both perhaps)? Thanks!

They are the same for me, I don't see a difference. Fall away from grace, fall away from the faith and losing salvation are the same to me. I see it like this, after we are born again, we have the Spirit of God in us. We do not earn that Spirit. He by His grace and mercy gives the Spirit to us. He saves us out of His mercy.

After He cleans us up, we don't become robots, the Spirit will start guiding us and leading us more and more into the likeness of Christ. But all through that process we can resist the Spirit, we can choose to go back to sin, we can choose to be distracted by the world and become fruitless for the Kingdom. If we do these things, the Spirit will start convicting us but we have to listen. We can choose to resist the Spirit and keep going our own way, if we don't continue with the Spirit, if we keep going back to sin willingly, there comes a time where He will cut us off. This is what I see in my Bible.

We can discuss these things out of the Bible if you want here for the edifying of the body. But we have to get into the verses. We read OUT of the scriptures not INTO them what we want them to say. They will fit as a big puzzle.

Here are the verses used for OSAS:

He that began a good work: Philippians 1:6

Predestination: Rom. 8:28-30, Eph. 1:4-6

Seal: Ephesians 1:13-14, 4:30 and 2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Nothing can Separate us: Romans 8:38-39

Noone can snatch us out of His hand: John 10:28

AntiChrists: 1 John 2:19

The best verse for Calvinism I find is 1 John 3:9 definitely. I will add to that Romans 7 and Romans 9. Romans 7 is completely taken out of context making it seem to be about Paul struggling with sin. While it is not.

Romans 9 gets clearer when we look at Jeremiah's visit to the potter.

All the verses I mentioned here are not really saying that we can never lose our salvation if we go back to wilfull sin. That is being pushed on these verses, these things don't mention sin.

While on the other side, the other verses are many and much clearer:
Examples: John 15, Hebrews 10:26-29, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Galatians 5:1-4, Romans 11:13-22, Parable of the 10 virgins, the Prodigal Son, 10 scriptures in the book of Revelation, Hebrews 6:4-6 and much more.

We have to dig deep and see for each one how it is going to make sense, we can't just pick just the ones that suit our doctrine.

God bless you brother in Jesus name.

 

[Asaph George]

Hi @Asaph George, one last question (if you don't mind), do you believe our salvation/eternal life will be secure in the age to come (IOW, in Heaven/on the New Earth), or will we still be able to freely choose to sin/choose to go to Hell if we want to, even then? Why or why not?

Thanks again!

In Christ,
David

Hi David, this is a good question. I believe in a post-trib rapture. I believe that when the devil will be cast into the pit and not deceive the nations, men will still be able to disobey God out of their own free will. But I am talking in the 1000 year reign. I say that because there are passages I believe say that there will still be people outside the will of God which are not reigning with Christ. These people will still have laws to abide coming from the Holy City where Jesus and His saints will reign so they are not saved.

However, in the age to come after the judgment after the one thousand year reign. I believe that those who reigned with Christ will not lose their salvation. Why? because they are in the WILL OF GOD, they are joined to Him. Their will and the will of God are the same. They have made their choice, now they are free IN GOD.

God bless you!

 

[Exinanition]

This is a great start, ST_Worm2. I have been watching this thread and thinking about posting a response as well. I KNOW for certain that salvation for those in Jesus Christ is a "done deal!" To think one must persevere to the end in order to be saved is to attempt to add man's works to the grace and gift of God in Christ Jesus.

"And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience; among whom we also had our way of life in times past, in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us (even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved), and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." -Ephesians 2:1-10

"once walked"=no longer walk
"were"=no longer are
"were dead in sins"=no longer dead in sins
"made us alive together with Christ"=not dead, not apart from Christ
"in Christ Jesus"=not apart from, not away from, not separated from, not alienated from Christ Jesus
"for by grace"=by no other means
"through faith"=sincerely, earnestly, totally, dedicatedly, devoted to Jesus Christ without doubting
"not of yourselves"=nothing you can do to add to, augment, enhance, heighten, or intensify God's perfect work
"gift of God"=initiated by God, offered by God, completed by God
"not of works"=impossible to be earned

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ; according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace, which He caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding." -Ephesians 1:3-8

"but He (Jesus Christ), because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is able also to save to the uttermost those who come unto God by Him, since He ever lives to make intercession for them." -Hebrews 7:24-25

Are we told repeatedly to persevere to the end? ABSOLUTLEY!! And why would we not if we are in Christ Jesus? We are "more than conquerors" in Jesus Christ! However, persevering to the end DOES NOT ADD TO OUR SALVATION!! Persevering to the end is simply evidence that we are saved. To think that we aided in any way in our salvation is to call God impotent to save completely. This cannot be. This is exactly what the Pharisees thought they needed to do. They believed they would be saved by their own righteousness. God forbid I should ever think such a thing.

I know I cannot aid in my salvation. I can only offer a contrite heart and yielded spirit to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Only He can save me. It is He who will "renew me" "by the transforming of (my) mind."

I wish everyone here a beautiful evening and...

 

[Exinanition]

We can choose to resist the Spirit and keep going our own way, if we don't continue with the Spirit, if we keep going back to sin willingly, there comes a time where He will cut us off. This is what I see in my Bible.

Good evening, Asaph George. I hope you are well. I wonder how you reconcile what you have written here with 1 John 3.

1 John 3:1Behold what manner of love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God. Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope on him purifies himself, even as that One is pure.
1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.
1 John 3:5 And you know that He was revealed that He might take away our sins, and in Him is no sin.
1 John 3:6 Everyone who abides in Him does not sin. Everyone who sins has not seen Him nor known Him.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous.
1 John 3:8 He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil.
1 John 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the Devil: everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God, also he who does not love his brother.

Now we know this passage is not saying a believer will never sin. It is saying a believer cannot live in continual sin as a way of life. If this is true, and it is, then the true believer who has been saved cannot "choose to resist the Spirit and keep going our own way" any more than we can "keep going back to sin willingly" as you have postulated in this quote.

I wish you a wonderful evening, Asaph George, and...

 

[Asaph George]

Good evening, Asaph George. I hope you are well. I wonder how you reconcile what you have written here with 1 John 3.

1 John 3:1Behold what manner of love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God. Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope on him purifies himself, even as that One is pure.
1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.
1 John 3:5 And you know that He was revealed that He might take away our sins, and in Him is no sin.
1 John 3:6 Everyone who abides in Him does not sin. Everyone who sins has not seen Him nor known Him.
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous.
1 John 3:8 He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil.
1 John 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the Devil: everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God, also he who does not love his brother.

Now we know this passage is not saying a believer will never sin. It is saying a believer cannot live in continual sin as a way of life. If this is true, and it is, then the true believer who has been saved cannot "choose to resist the Spirit and keep going our own way" any more than we can "keep going back to sin willingly" as you have postulated in this quote.

I wish you a wonderful evening, Asaph George, and...

Hello Exinanition, Nice to meet you.

If you look at one post above I said that he best verse for Calvinism I find is 1 John 3:9.

I like you believe that a true child of God who are walking in the Spirit will not sin, they will hate sin and even cannot sin. I know this because I know how much of a sinner I was.

I am not saying that I am perfect but it is an issue of mastery. Who is our master? If we are truly children of God we will not sin because the Holy Spirit will be in us guiding us and convicting us all the time.

However on the other side, I see many other verses in the bible showing that we have to endure until the end to be saved.

So when it comes to 1 John 3, because of the amount of verses on the other side showing that we can willingly fall away after we are saved, it would leave the only hard verse to deal with which is 1 John 3:9. But if I am on the Calvinist side, I would have to deal with much much more and in weirder ways.

In 1 John 3, John to me is waking up believers and teaching them to make them understand that "if you are truly the children of God, you will not continue living in sin"

Which is why I don't argue with people who think that way. God bless them, they are my brothers.

If you truly believe that if you keep sinning wilfully you are not saved to begin with then may the Lord be with you my brother. You are a pearl in God's eyes

Now when it comes to Ephesians 2:9-10, people always use that to say that we are saved by grace as if that means that we should not do anything after we are saved. That is not true. We will ALWAYS BE SAVED BY GRACE. Ephesians 2:10 says what:

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus TO good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them

Why not highlight these? They are right there in the same context.

Now people would say, if we should walk in works to preserve the gift, that means we are earning it.. That is not true. We are preserving it, keeping the faith, abiding in the vine.

Paul until the last moment said: I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Are we going to say, he is just simply adding rewards to his salvation?

He said 1 Corinthians 9:27 - But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Can you please pick one of these? John 15:2, Parable of the virgins, parable of the prodigal Son, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Hebrews 10:26, Hebrews 4:4-6, Galatians 5:1-4.. Pick any of these and explain them to me. It will be harder for your position to argue against these passages then to me to argue about 1 John 3:9.

You have selected the only best verse for Calvinism but the others are not good, in fact they provide assurance but this assurance is for those who WILLINGLY follow Christ until the end. It is their constant walk in the Spirit that gives them that assurance.

May God bless you dear brother in Jesus name

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

it would leave the only hard verse to deal with which is 1 John 3:9.

When this is true (the verse), it is true, and is not wrong.

Does someone born Chinese, in China, to Chinese parents,
have trouble staying Chinese ?
Does someone born Russian, in Russia, to Russian parents,
have trouble staying Russian ?
Does someone born Canadian, in Canada, to Canadian parents,
have trouble staying Canadian ?

These questions, are they in any way difficult to deal with ?
Or are they simple and true ?

 

[Phil 1:21]

I know all about the passage in 1 John 2:19 which is talking about AntiChrists. And how OSAS believers stretch this passage out to make it about ALL believers are false brothers.

That is a big stretch.

Yes, that would be a stretch ("ALL believers are false brothers"). And I haven't seen anyone here make such a claim.

And yes, 1 John 2:19 is about antichrists. What is an antichristt in this context? John tells us in verse 22.

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

So yes, John is talking about how those who fall away from the faith -- who deny the Father and the Son -- and that they were never saved in the first place. Context makes this very clear.