Hello Exinanition, Nice to meet you.
Hello, Asaph George, I am also very pleased to meet you.
If you look at one post above I said that he best verse for Calvinism I find is 1 John 3:9.
Respectfully, Asaph George, I do not consider this a verse “for Calvinism” but a verse for Christianity. That being stated, how do you reconcile this verse with the verses you see as saying a Christian can continue in sin after having received salvation? You have stated that we must look at all scripture to arrive at correct doctrine. This verse is scripture and cannot be ignored if we are to be doctrinally correct. Do you agree?
I like you believe that a true child of God who are walking in the Spirit will not sin, they will hate sin and even cannot sin. I know this because I know how much of a sinner I was.
I am not saying that I am perfect but it is an issue of mastery. Who is our master? If we are truly children of God we will not sin because the Holy Spirit will be in us guiding us and convicting us all the time.
Thank you, Asaph George. This is
exactly my point. The
true believer will never willfully continue in sin because he
cannot willfully continue in sin. Therefore, he simply cannot lose his salvation due to continuing willfully in sin and grieving the Holy Spirit. If this is true, and I, as well as you according to what you have just stated, believe it is, then it stands to reason that
the only ones who can willfully continue to sin are those
who do not have the Holy Spirit “guiding” and “convicting” them “all the time.” In other words, this can only refer to those who do not have the Holy Spirit because they have not received the grace of God into their hearts, minds, and spirits,
through faith.
Romans 5:1-2 Therefore
being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we
have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
But, as this “hope of the glory of God” is necessarily future, it is to be waited for; but this waiting,
in a thorough Christian, is not only a blessed expectation, but also a continual anticipation of it.
Without faith no one will ever see this glory because
without faith no one will ever be saved.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For
by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is
justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Hebrews 10:22-23 Let us draw near
with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us
hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)…
Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children
in whom is no faith.
Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him:
but the just shall live by his faith.
Matthew 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, “Daughter, be of good comfort;
thy faith hath made thee whole.” And the woman was made whole from that hour.
Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, “
According to your faith be it unto you.”
Mark 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, “
Have faith in God.”
Luke 18:8 “I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh,
shall he find faith on the earth?”
Now when it comes to Ephesians 2:9-10, people always use that to say that we are saved by grace as if that means that we should not do anything after we are saved. That is not true. We will ALWAYS BE SAVED BY GRACE. Ephesians 2:10 says what:
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus TO good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them
It is certain that we “will ALWAYS BE SAVED BY GRACE.” It is just as certain that we will always be saved by grace
through faith. It is equally true that “we are His
workmanship, created in Christ Jesus
TO good works, which God has before ordained that we
should walk in them.” I do not argue this point. I just believe that if we are
truly saved then
we will do the good works which God has before ordained because, as you yourself so aptly put it, “
the Holy Spirit will be in us guiding us and convicting us all the time.”
You said in another place:
It is their constant walk in the Spirit that gives them that assurance.
I disagree. Their constant walk in the Spirit does not give them that assurance. Their constant walk in the Spirit is their witness to the world that they belong to God in Jesus Christ!
The works do not save us; therefore, they cannot disqualify us from salvation. The works are not the guaranty of our salvation. They are the
evidence of our salvation.
Asaph George, you said:
Can you please pick one of these? John 15:2, Parable of the virgins, parable of the prodigal Son, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Hebrews 10:26, Hebrews 4:4-6, Galatians 5:1-4.. Pick any of these and explain them to me. It will be harder for your position to argue against these passages then to me to argue about 1 John 3:9.
Okay.
Galatians 5:1-4 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
“This is intimately connected with the preceding chapter: the apostle having said, just before, So then, brethren, we are not children of the bond woman, but of the free, immediately adds, Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free. Hold fast your Christian profession; it brings spiritual liberty: on the contrary, Judaism brings spiritual bondage.”
(This is a quote from
Clarke’s Commentary)
I mention this because I do not wish to plagiarize and it further establishes context for chapter five. Mr. Clarke is correct here.
Galatians 4:21-31 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he
who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
We can discuss these things out of the Bible if you want here for the edifying of the body. But we have to get into the verses. We read OUT of the scriptures not INTO them what we want them to say. They will fit as a big puzzle.
Here are the verses used for OSAS:
He that began a good work: Philippians 1:6
Predestination: Rom. 8:28-30, Eph. 1:4-6
Seal: Ephesians 1:13-14, 4:30 and 2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Nothing can Separate us: Romans 8:38-39
Noone can snatch us out of His hand: John 10:28
AntiChrists: 1 John 2:19
The best verse for Calvinism I find is 1 John 3:9 definitely. I will add to that Romans 7 and Romans 9. Romans 7 is completely taken out of context making it seem to be about Paul struggling with sin. While it is not.
Romans 9 gets clearer when we look at Jeremiah's visit to the potter.
All the verses I mentioned here are not really saying that we can never lose our salvation if we go back to wilfull sin. That is being pushed on these verses, these things don't mention sin.
This context of Galatians 5:1-4 must be considered in conjunction with Galatians 4:21-31. As you have said that verses the OSAS’ers use to defend their position “don’t mention sin;” neither does the apostle Paul mention anything in this passage about losing salvation.
Paul has started a church in Galatia. He has nurtured it. He has proclaimed the gospel of Jesus Christ. He has taught doctrine. He has presented them with the grace of the gospel which leads to salvation. All of this is certain. This does not, however, mean that everyone there has already been “saved by grace
through faith. Attending a church regularly does not make you a born again Christian any more than putting flour all over you and sitting in the oven will make you a biscuit.
They are learning. Some of them get it. Some of them do not. (Surely you have been in a church where not everyone was saved!)This is obvious by their attempting to place themselves back into bondage by trying to fulfill the Mosaic Law. Only Jesus Christ ever fulfilled this Law. These people who have indeed heard of the grace of the gospel, have tasted and seen that it is good, have enjoyed actual benefits from it through fellowship with those
who have been saved through faith, still have not
demonstrated the faith through which salvation is received. They have effectually said, “This grace is good. We like it. We have some faith…
BUT, we are going to 'hedge our bets”' here. We are going with a little 'insurance policy' just in case this grace thing isn’t quite as good as you make it sound. We are going to insure our salvation by placing ourselves back under, and fulfilling, the Law because surely there is something we must do to help in all of this. There simply must be some boxes to 'check' or 'buttons' to push or something. Free salvation sounds great but it just sounds too good to be true.”
Judaizers have come in and told them they must keep the Law and be circumcised or they will not be accepted by God and they have believed them rather than the gospel. This is the whole purpose of this passage from Paul to these Galatians. He tells them they have started well by coming and hearing the gospel and approving of it but he fears for them that they may not attain to salvation because they are considering going back to the Law and Jewish traditions. Paul is attempting here to set them aright that
they may not miss “
so great a salvation!”
You have selected the only best verse for Calvinism but the others are not good, in fact they provide assurance but this assurance is for those who WILLINGLY follow Christ until the end. It is their constant walk in the Spirit that gives them that assurance.
Right! And those who have been saved and are the Elect will willingly follow Christ until the end because they
“are a new creation.
The old has gone. The new has come.” Praise and glory be unto God!!
Asaph George, I am not afraid to be wrong. I pray always that if I am misunderstanding scripture God in heaven will make me aware of it and teach me the truth. Neither do I simply dismiss the things you are writing here. I read every word and carefully consider all you say. I do not presume to be infallible. Only a fool would dare such a thing. Please understand the things I write I try to write in humility. I seek only God’s truth in all things. As of this time I am convinced of my position, as I am certain you are of yours. Let us continue this discussion and learn together. I wish you joy.
May God bless you dear brother in Jesus name
And may God bless you also dear brother in Jesus’ name as we both seek to understand properly the Love Letter our heavenly Father has given us and…
