ALL Scriptures For and Against Once Saved Always Saved

[The_Believer7]

Luke 23

39 One of the criminals hanging next to Jesus insulted him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40 Responding, the other criminal spoke harshly to him, "Don't you fear God, seeing that you've also been sentenced to die?

41 We are rightly condemned, for we are receiving the appropriate sentence for what we did. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

43 Jesus replied, "I assure you that today you will be with me in paradise."

 

[Asaph George]

When this is true (the verse), it is true, and is not wrong.

Does someone born Chinese, in China, to Chinese parents,
have trouble staying Chinese ?
Does someone born Russian, in Russia, to Russian parents,
have trouble staying Russian ?
Does someone born Canadian, in Canada, to Canadian parents,
have trouble staying Canadian ?

These questions, are they in any way difficult to deal with ?
Or are they simple and true ?

Hello brother,

My point is that many Calvinists use this verse to say that once someone is born again, they will not lose their salvation ever. I am trying to say that this verse is not saying that but that John is telling his readers that a true born again Christian should not go on sinning.

God bless you

 

[Asaph George]

Yes, that would be a stretch ("ALL believers are false brothers"). And I haven't seen anyone here make such a claim.

And yes, 1 John 2:19 is about antichrists. What is an antichristt in this context? John tells us in verse 22.

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

So yes, John is talking about how those who fall away from the faith -- who deny the Father and the Son -- and that they were never saved in the first place. Context makes this very clear.

That is not true because the context in verse 24 shows that his readers are already saved. He exhorts them not to be deceived by the AntiChrists and that IF the truth abides in them, they will remain in the Son and the promise to these is eternal life. That is IF they remain in the Son and the Father.

As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.


Simple IF statement.

 

[Asaph George]

Luke 23

39 One of the criminals hanging next to Jesus insulted him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40 Responding, the other criminal spoke harshly to him, "Don't you fear God, seeing that you've also been sentenced to die?

41 We are rightly condemned, for we are receiving the appropriate sentence for what we did. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

43 Jesus replied, "I assure you that today you will be with me in paradise."

Hello The_Believer7, nice to meet you brother,

We cannot use an exception and make it the rule. The thief on the cross exhibited TRUE faith in very EXTREME circumstances of torture. God dealt with him according to his heart and according to these circumstances at that moment.

We are not dying on a cross next to Jesus Christ. We are people living in the 21st century. We can not take his example and stretch it out and make it the rule.

May God bless you!

 

[Phil 1:21]

That is not true because the context in verse 24 shows that his readers are already saved.

Well, of course. He is writing to people who are saved, explaining why the people who left them never were saved.

He exhorts them not to be deceived by the AntiChrists and that IF the truth abides in them, they will remain in the Son and the promise to these is eternal life. That is IF they remain in the Son and the Father.

As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.


Simple IF statement.

Yes, "if." And by whose power does that happen?

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." John 6:39

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, "if." And by whose power does that happen?

Are people forgiven in the world, of the world, if they never repent of their sinful lives, if they are never regenrated (born again) ?

 

[Phil 1:21]

Are people forgiven in the world, of the world, if they never repent of their sinful lives, if they are never regenrated (born again) ?

Excellent question.

John 3

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit" gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

As posted by others before from Scripture, in complete harmony with this and all Scripture,
if someone still having free will to choose,
LEAVES THE LIGHT, and goes into the darkness, for fear their DEEDS will be exposed (or any other reason?) ,
doing evil, so they will not come into the light.....
instead of REMAINING (ENDURING) IN THE LIGHT,
it is clear to all they do not stay in CHRIST JESUS according to HIS WORD.

 

[Asaph George]

Well, of course. He is writing to people who are saved, explaining why the people who left them never were saved.

Yes, "if." And by whose power does that happen?

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." John 6:39

Hello again brother.

I believe you are evading the context of the verse 24. If the truth abides in them, they will continue in the Son. That means if the truth does not abide in them, they don't continue in the Son. The IF shows that it is possible the truth does not abide in them and that they don't continue. Simple IF statement as I said.

He will not lose none of those who the Father has given Him except These sheep that His Father has given are ones who WILLINGLY FOLLOW Him. If they continue following Him and willingly fall back, they will be lost, if they continue following Him, nobody can snatch them out of His hand.

John 10:26-30

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (following Him means it is a continuous thing, if a sheep does not continue following the shepherd, this sheep will be lost and won't be part of His fold anymore, we always have to be guided by His Spirit Listening to His voice)

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Btw Judas Iscariot was part of the sheep that God gave to Jesus.

God bless you

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Since anyone on earth can possibly be saved even if they do believe in osas,
and since anyone on earth can also be lost even if they do believe in osas,

what difference does it make in eternity if someone believes osas or not ?

No matter what they believe, they can be lost, and they can be saved, regardless of whether they believe in osas or not.

So WHY HOLD TO THAT BELIEF?

 

[Asaph George]

Well, of course. He is writing to people who are saved, explaining why the people who left them never were saved.

Yes, "if." And by whose power does that happen?

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." John 6:39

The jump to other scriptures should be done rarely and the scriptures have to be defended from their own context before we start interjecting from other passages.

This jumping to other scriptures is done to ignore the obvious intended meaning of the author, in this case John in verse 24. If you remain in the house, you will be saved, logically means, if you don't remain in the house, you will not be saved.

But because this does not fit with OSAS, we have to find a way out so we go search for a way to make it fit with it and interject on the clear context.

Do you see this?

 

[Phil 1:21]

This is called scriptural gymnastics.

I agree. So please stop spinning around the bar.

You are evading the context of the verse 24. If the truth abides in them, they will continue in the Son. That means if the truth does not abide in them, they don't continue in the Son. The IF shows that it is possible the truth does not abide in them and that they don't continue. Simple IF statement as I said.

Yeah, in other words...

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." 1 John 2:19

So what have I said with which you disagree? It's like I'm saying the sky is blue. And you're responding with, "No, the sky is blue!"

Btw Judas Iscariot was part of the sheep that God gave to Jesus.

Scriptural reference please.

 

[Asaph George]

Hello brothers,

I am realizing that we are only dwelling on verses that seem to support OSAS.

What about the countess other verses that are straight-forward talking about losing salvation.

Can anyone explain this:

Hebrews 10:26-27

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

God bless you all brothers, all this with love.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Can anyone answer this:

Hebrews 10:26-27

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

SMILE REAL BIG.
This is not a question ! haha .....

However, it may bring up a salient point (pertinent perhaps) -

HOW MANY have ever received the "knowledge of the truth" on earth ?
(no problem leaving this for another thread, btw)

 

[Asaph George]

I agree. So please stop spinning around the bar.

Yeah, in other words...

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." 1 John 2:19

Hi again brother.

That is what I mean this is talking about AntiChrists not about ALL believers who fall from the faith. If the truth abides means that the truth was already in there. You only have truth in when you are born again, then you know the truth. You cannot know the truth without the Spirit. Jesus is the Truth.

If the truth abides means the truth is already in there. You are playing on verses to reject the obvious meaning brother.

Simple IF statement in its context is being interjected with another unrelated verse to evade its most straight forward meaning. If A = true then B happens, that means If A = false B does not happen. Simple.

If you go use the AntiChrists verse to say that each believer who falls away is antichrist then you are doing a circular play on verses to support your doctrine. You are looking at the scriptures from a window of preconceived doctrine.

God bless you

 

[Asaph George]

SMILE REAL BIG.
This is not a question ! haha .....

However, it may bring up a salient point (pertinent perhaps) -

HOW MANY have ever received the "knowledge of the truth" on earth ?
(no problem leaving this for another thread, btw)

lol corrected thank you

 

[Asaph George]

Scriptural reference please.

John 17:11-12

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Phil 1:21]

That is what I mean this is talking about AntiChrists not about ALL believers who fall from the faith.

You’re assuming that true believers can fall from the faith.

If the truth abides means that the truth was already in there. You only have truth in when you are born again, then you know the truth. You cannot know the truth without the Spirit. Jesus is the Truth.

You have made two errors. First, you conflated the Truth with the truth. 1+1=2 is the truth, but it’s not the Truth.

Second, you assume that people cannot know scriptural truth unless they have been saved. That is also patently false.

If the truth abides means the truth is already in there. You are playing on verses to reject the obvious meaning brother.

You are engaging in eisegesis to support a position contrary to scripture.

Simple statement in its context is being interjected with another unrelated verse to evade it is most straight forward meaning. If A = true then B happens, that means If A = false B does not happen. Simple.

Verses are not stand alone proclamations. They are part of chapters, books, testaments, and scripture. And as we all know…

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…” 2 Timothy 3:16

If you go use the AntiChrists verse to say that each believer who falls away is antichrist then you are doing a circular play on verses to support your doctrine. You are looking at the scriptures from a window of preconceived doctrine.

Says the person operating from the preconceived notion that true believers can fall away, even though Jesus states the opposite?

 

[Phil 1:21]

none of them is lost, but the son of perdition

Excellent. Now please read that again...

"...NONE of them is lost, BUT the son of perdition..."

Pretty much reinforces what Jesus said that...

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day." John 6:39

 

[Asaph George]

You’re assuming that true believers can fall from the faith.

I am not assuming, it is what I read out of the scriptures especially about the other countless verses that are clearly saying that one can fall away from salvation.

"you assume that people cannot know scriptural truth unless they have been saved. That is also patently false."

I am not talking about scriptural truth I am talking about the truth that John is talking about in 1 John 2, the truth that AntiChrists are trying to twist, that is that Jesus is the Christ. Please follow the context.

1 John 2:22-24

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that (TRUTH that Jesus is the Christ and the Son) therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

This Truth is only revealed by the Spirit, remember when Peter said that Jesus is the Son of God what Jesus replied.

Do you understand this?

God bless you