• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Acts 21-28 Paul is a Messianic Jew and declares his views under oath

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,397
11,931
Georgia
✟1,099,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Interesting link - not sure how it relates to Paul's actions regarding the written scripture and his doctrine.

Notice in Acts 17:11 regarding Paul's doctrine "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF those things were so"

All of his doctrine had to be vetted "sola scriptura" to prove it did not contradict.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,397
11,931
Georgia
✟1,099,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Indeed the law of who can be priest has changed. No longer is it "only Levites" - rather it is our High Priest - the Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Rev 5) -

In fact that is the "main point" according to Heb 8:1.

What is more the Law of animal sacrifices - ceremonies with animal sacrifices - has ended as Heb 10 "he takes away the first to establish the second" - the second being the sacrifice once for all - of Christ.

But God did not say in these chapters "it is ok to take my Name in vain from now on. That old restriction is abolished" or any such thing.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,397
11,931
Georgia
✟1,099,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Vine and Branches

Messianic-believer
Mar 5, 2016
67
17
United States
✟15,324.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
What is your point about Paul being an MJ? There was no MJ designation in his day. Besides that he was living like a Gentile in Antioch.

bugkiller
The Nazarenes? They were like paleo-Messianic Jews. Paul is even called one:

Acts 24:5 KJV - "For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:"
 
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
The Nazarenes? They were like paleo-Messianic Jews. Paul is even called one:

Acts 24:5 KJV - "For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:"
Anyone can make any accusation they wish. Simply doesn't make it so.

bugkiller
 
Upvote 0

Vine and Branches

Messianic-believer
Mar 5, 2016
67
17
United States
✟15,324.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Anyone can make any accusation they wish. Simply doesn't make it so.

bugkiller
What are you talking about? This is documented! The Nazarenes were known to be the early followers of Yeshua:

-Wikipedia

"The beliefs of the Nazarene sect or sects are described through various church fathers and heresiologists.

  • in Jesus as Messiah:
The Nazarenes... accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law.

— Jerome, On. Is. 8:14
  • in the Virgin Birth:
They believe that Messiah, the Son of God, was born of the Virgin Mary.

— Jerome, Letter 75 Jerome to Augustine
  • in Jesus as the Son of God:
Matthew, also called Levi, apostle and aforetimes publican, composed a gospel of Christ at first published in Judea in Hebrew for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed, but this was afterwards translated into Greek though by what author is uncertain. The Hebrew itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Cæsarea which Pamphilus so diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having the volume described to me by the Nazarenes of Beroea, a city of Syria, who use it. In this it is to be noted that wherever the Evangelist, whether on his own account or in the person of our Lord the Saviour quotes the testimony of the Old Testament he does not follow the authority of the translators of the Septuagint but the Hebrew. Wherefore these two forms exist “Out of Egypt have I called my son,” and “for he shall be called a Nazarene.”

— Jerome, Lives of Illustrius Men Ch.3
They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion – except for their belief in Christ, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that God is one, and that his Son is Jesus Christ.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.2
  • Adhering to circumcision and the Law of Moses:
They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Christ; but since they are still fettered by the Law – circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest – they are not in accord with the Christians.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.4
  • Use of Old Testament and New Testament:
They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.2
  • Use of Hebrew and Aramaic New Testament source texts:
They have the Gospel according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.9.4
And he [Heggesippus the Nazarene] quotes some passages from the Gospel according to the Hebrews and from the Syriac [the Aramaic], and some particulars from the Hebrew tongue, showing that he was a convert from the Hebrews, and he mentions other matters as taken from the oral tradition of the Jews.

— Eusebius of Caesarea, Ecclesiastical History 4.22
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,397
11,931
Georgia
✟1,099,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
What are you talking about? This is documented! The Nazarenes were known to be the early followers of Yeshua:

-Wikipedia

"The beliefs of the Nazarene sect or sects are described through various church fathers and heresiologists.

  • in Jesus as Messiah:
The Nazarenes... accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law.

— Jerome, On. Is. 8:14
  • in the Virgin Birth:
They believe that Messiah, the Son of God, was born of the Virgin Mary.

— Jerome, Letter 75 Jerome to Augustine
  • in Jesus as the Son of God:
Matthew, also called Levi, apostle and aforetimes publican, composed a gospel of Christ at first published in Judea in Hebrew for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed, but this was afterwards translated into Greek though by what author is uncertain. The Hebrew itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Cæsarea which Pamphilus so diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having the volume described to me by the Nazarenes of Beroea, a city of Syria, who use it. In this it is to be noted that wherever the Evangelist, whether on his own account or in the person of our Lord the Saviour quotes the testimony of the Old Testament he does not follow the authority of the translators of the Septuagint but the Hebrew. Wherefore these two forms exist “Out of Egypt have I called my son,” and “for he shall be called a Nazarene.”

— Jerome, Lives of Illustrius Men Ch.3
They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion – except for their belief in Christ, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that God is one, and that his Son is Jesus Christ.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.2
  • Adhering to circumcision and the Law of Moses:
They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Christ; but since they are still fettered by the Law – circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest – they are not in accord with the Christians.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.4
  • Use of Old Testament and New Testament:
They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.2
  • Use of Hebrew and Aramaic New Testament source texts:
They have the Gospel according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.9.4
And he [Heggesippus the Nazarene] quotes some passages from the Gospel according to the Hebrews and from the Syriac [the Aramaic], and some particulars from the Hebrew tongue, showing that he was a convert from the Hebrews, and he mentions other matters as taken from the oral tradition of the Jews.

— Eusebius of Caesarea, Ecclesiastical History 4.22

And shall we ignore the words of Christ - just because there are those among us still at war against the Law of God??


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


I am sure you will agree with me that we should not ignore the words of Christ in Mark 7.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
30,507
13,971
73
✟425,903.00
Faith
Non-Denom
And shall we ignore the words of Christ - just because there are those among us still at war against the Law of God??


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


I am sure you will agree with me that we should not ignore the words of Christ in Mark 7.

I remain perplexed that you persist in ignoring 603 direct commandments of God and then have the chutzpah to accuse others of the very thing of which you are guilty.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Meowzltov
Upvote 0

bugkiller

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2015
17,773
2,629
✟95,400.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
What are you talking about? This is documented! The Nazarenes were known to be the early followers of Yeshua:

-Wikipedia

"The beliefs of the Nazarene sect or sects are described through various church fathers and heresiologists.

  • in Jesus as Messiah:
The Nazarenes... accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law.

— Jerome, On. Is. 8:14
  • in the Virgin Birth:
They believe that Messiah, the Son of God, was born of the Virgin Mary.

— Jerome, Letter 75 Jerome to Augustine
  • in Jesus as the Son of God:
Matthew, also called Levi, apostle and aforetimes publican, composed a gospel of Christ at first published in Judea in Hebrew for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed, but this was afterwards translated into Greek though by what author is uncertain. The Hebrew itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Cæsarea which Pamphilus so diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having the volume described to me by the Nazarenes of Beroea, a city of Syria, who use it. In this it is to be noted that wherever the Evangelist, whether on his own account or in the person of our Lord the Saviour quotes the testimony of the Old Testament he does not follow the authority of the translators of the Septuagint but the Hebrew. Wherefore these two forms exist “Out of Egypt have I called my son,” and “for he shall be called a Nazarene.”

— Jerome, Lives of Illustrius Men Ch.3
They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion – except for their belief in Christ, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that God is one, and that his Son is Jesus Christ.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.2
  • Adhering to circumcision and the Law of Moses:
They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Christ; but since they are still fettered by the Law – circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest – they are not in accord with the Christians.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.4
  • Use of Old Testament and New Testament:
They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.7.2
  • Use of Hebrew and Aramaic New Testament source texts:
They have the Gospel according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written.

— Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 29.9.4
And he [Heggesippus the Nazarene] quotes some passages from the Gospel according to the Hebrews and from the Syriac [the Aramaic], and some particulars from the Hebrew tongue, showing that he was a convert from the Hebrews, and he mentions other matters as taken from the oral tradition of the Jews.

— Eusebius of Caesarea, Ecclesiastical History 4.22
I never said the didn't exist. I did say in response to your Acts quote they could say anything they wanted,

bugkiller
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,397
11,931
Georgia
✟1,099,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,397
11,931
Georgia
✟1,099,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Paul provides this public testimony about himself.

Acts 21

24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets



Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all"



Acts 26
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come; 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles;


Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

...

23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening.


=======================

And under oath says this -

Acts 23
6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,397
11,931
Georgia
✟1,099,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Yep. Unlike the SDA, however, he did not limit himself to just a few of the commandments, did he?

Is this where we "pretend" that every post on this section of the board - in favor of the Bible Sabbath or the Ten Commandments - comes just from "SDA"'s -- "again"??
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
30,507
13,971
73
✟425,903.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Is this where we "pretend" that every post on this section of the board - in favor of the Bible Sabbath or the Ten Commandments - comes just from "SDA"'s -- "again"??

Hardly, but, unfortunately, the only proponents of observing a miniscule portion of the Commandents of the Sinaitic Covenant who post here are SDA, so this applies to the SDA in particular, does it not?
 
Upvote 0