Acts 21-28 Paul is a Messianic Jew and declares his views under oath

[BobRyan]

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles starting with clarification of his teaching for his fellow Messianic Jews.



Acts 21
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.;


Acts 26
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come; 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles;

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening

 

[bugkiller]

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles starting with clarification of his teaching for his fellow Messianic Jews.



[FONT=&quot]Acts 21
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT][/FONT]

Starting a new thread won't help you make your point.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

notice then the "details" in Paul's clarification to his fellow Messianic Jews in Acts 21.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many on this board would be tempted to argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law..

And those who want to just focus on one tiny verse in Acts 21 -- Acts 21:25 to the exclusion of the entire episode - find that there in that one tiny verse gentiles are not commandment to "Love God with all their heart" or to "love your neighbor as yourself" nor even "thou shalt not murder" ... none of that is in Acts 21:25. Since obviously Acts 21:25 is NOT the "tiny 1 verse Bible left for gentiles" - but rather shows the restrictions from OT food laws that need to be held up as reminders for Gentiles as new practice they might not be familiar with.

What we have quoted there is this restriction from Lev 17 and eating meat with blood in it.

Acts 21:25
25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”
​

In the case of the two above - they are from Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 -- quoted by Christ, and Paul and james 2 in Lev 19 form -- but not in Acts 21:25 or in Acts 15... because those two are not trying to downsize/resize scripture at all - they allow for all of it.

 

[BobRyan]

Starting a new thread won't help you make your point.

bugkiller

Your response to those Bible texts is understandable given your position.

But I have the option of accepting the verses as they read - so I am going to have to go with the Bible on this one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogster]

All people have to do is to read the others responses on my messianic thread, to see that your op is not using text properly, the context proves your usage wrong, no reason to repost everything here now, all over again.

The thing is, I and others proved Paul was about the resurrection not law promotion in upper Acts, but you did not rebut that, you just kept posting the same verses, that your OP is, it's the same paste. That is not a debate.

Then when I post how Paul called it all the flesh, and poop, from Phil 3, you said nothing.


When I asked if Acts 23 was about law or the resurrection, you said nothing.


Then when you post Acts 24:14, without verse 15, which shows Paul was talking about the resurrection, out of the OT, that was the context, you said nothing.


When I asked if the hope of the 12 tribes in Acts 26 was the law or resurrection, you said nothing.


Over and over it was shown that Paul was about the resurrection in Acts, that is what he said he was on trial for, and sure, after hearing how they thought Paul promoted sin, Rom 3:8, he took the vow, to help James in 21, he did things for the gospel, he said so. In 1 Cor 9, he said he became as a jew under law, for the Gospel, which means he did not live as a jew, but you say nothing to that.

In Gal 4:12, he says this,
but you say nothing to that.

12 Brethren, I beg of you, become as I am [free from the bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances], for I also have become as you are [[e]a Gentile]. You did me no wrong [[f]in the days when I first came to you; do not do it now].



I carefully explained all of that, yet you say nothing.

I proved he was not a practicing pharisee anymore, but just believed as they, as Jesus did about the doctrine of the resurrection, as per Acts 23, but you say nothing.


Even the Jewish Christians in Antioch were living as Gentiles.


Paul did not even go to the temple for 17 years, gee, what kind of messianic would not go to temple for 17 years? lol


Over and over I proved all of this, without a substantial counter from you, you just kept pasting those same verses.

Now you want to start a repeat of the same thing?

 

[Frogster]

I added a few more things you to read in my post. They are facts..

 

[bugkiller]

My calendar must be fibbing to me. My clock says Monday. My puter says it is the 27th.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles starting with clarification of his teaching for his fellow Messianic Jews.



[FONT=&quot]Acts 21
[FONT=&quot]24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 24:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Acts 26[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”[/FONT]

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening[/FONT][/FONT]

All people have to do is to read the others responses on my messianic thread, to see that your op is not using text properly, the context proves your usage wrong, ?

Well... not in real life - as the texts we read above clearly show.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I post this

notice then the "details" in Paul's clarification to his fellow Messianic Jews in Acts 21.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many on this board would be tempted to argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law..

And those who want to just focus on one tiny verse in Acts 21 -- Acts 21:25 to the exclusion of the entire episode - find that there in that one tiny verse gentiles are not commandment to "Love God with all their heart" or to "love your neighbor as yourself" nor even "thou shalt not murder" ... none of that is in Acts 21:25. Since obviously Acts 21:25 is NOT the "tiny 1 verse Bible left for gentiles" - but rather shows the restrictions from OT food laws that need to be held up as reminders for Gentiles as new practice they might not be familiar with.

What we have quoted there is this restriction from Lev 17 and eating meat with blood in it.

Acts 21:25
25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”
​

In the case of the two above - they are from Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 -- quoted by Christ, and Paul and james 2 in Lev 19 form -- but not in Acts 21:25 or in Acts 15... because those two are not trying to downsize/resize scripture at all - they allow for all of it.

And then you post

Then when you post Acts 24:14, without verse 15, which shows Paul was talking about the resurrection, out of the OT, that was the context, you said nothing.

I find your logic "illusive" -- are you trying not to address the point raised?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I post this

notice then the "details" in Paul's clarification to his fellow Messianic Jews in Acts 21.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many on this board would be tempted to argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law..

And those who want to just focus on one tiny verse in Acts 21 -- Acts 21:25 to the exclusion of the entire episode - find that there in that one tiny verse gentiles are not commandment to "Love God with all their heart" or to "love your neighbor as yourself" nor even "thou shalt not murder" ... none of that is in Acts 21:25. Since obviously Acts 21:25 is NOT the "tiny 1 verse Bible left for gentiles" - but rather shows the restrictions from OT food laws that need to be held up as reminders for Gentiles as new practice they might not be familiar with.

What we have quoted there is this restriction from Lev 17 and eating meat with blood in it.

Acts 21:25
25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”
​

In the case of the two above - they are from Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 -- quoted by Christ, and Paul and james 2 in Lev 19 form -- but not in Acts 21:25 or in Acts 15... because those two are not trying to downsize/resize scripture at all - they allow for all of it.

And then you post

Then when you post Acts 24:14, without verse 15, which shows Paul was talking about the resurrection, out of the OT, that was the context, you said nothing.

I find your logic "illusive" -- are you trying not to address the point raised?

As for my previous Acts 24 quote -- it is irrefutable.

12 Neither in the temple, nor in the synagogues, nor in the city itself did they find me carrying on a discussion with anyone or causing a riot. 13 Nor can they prove to you the charges of which they now accuse me. 14 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;



Notice Paul does not say "Believing just one or two things in scripture and totally in rebellion against all the rest of scripture"??

In fact not only does Paul affirm fellowship - brotherhood ""God of OUR fathers" but also " believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets"

Having the same Belief/hope in the coming Messiah also shared by the non-believing Jews, as well as a belief in the future resurrection that the Pharisees hold - but the Sadducees do not.




15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men. 17 Now after several years I came to bring alms to my nation and to present offerings; 18 in which they found me occupied in the temple,


Here affirms with them - "my nation" bringing alms "to MY nation" and presenting offerings - IN the temple!

What temple does the reader suppose that is?

"having been purified" ritually - ceremonially - and in the temple.

having been purified, without any crowd or uproar. But there were some Jews from Asia— 19 who ought to have been present before you and to make accusation, if they should have anything against me. 20 Or else let these men themselves tell what misdeed they found when I stood before the Council,

==================================

Beyond all doubt - chapter 24 shows Paul to be a messianic Jew!!


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Paul did not even go to the temple for 17 years, gee, what kind of messianic would not go to temple for 17 years? lol


Over and over I proved all of this,

you have brought that up repeatedly and I have pretty much ignored it since we all know that Messianic Jews had access to their local synagogues "every Sabbath" as James points out in Acts 15.

I did not want to end your point too quickly by pointing this out early.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bugkiller]

I post this




And then you post



I find your logic "illusive" -- are you trying not to address the point raised?

As for my previous Acts 24 quote -- it is irrefutable.

12 Neither in the temple, nor in the synagogues, nor in the city itself did they find me carrying on a discussion with anyone or causing a riot. 13 Nor can they prove to you the charges of which they now accuse me. 14 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;



Notice Paul does not say "Believing just one or two things in scripture and totally in rebellion against all the rest of scripture"??

In fact not only does Paul affirm fellowship - brotherhood ""God of OUR fathers" but also " believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets"

Having the same Belief/hope in the coming Messiah also shared by the non-believing Jews, as well as a belief in the future resurrection that the Pharisees hold - but the Sadducees do not.




15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men. 17 Now after several years I came to bring alms to my nation and to present offerings; 18 in which they found me occupied in the temple,


Here affirms with them - "my nation" bringing alms "to MY nation" and presenting offerings - IN the temple!

What temple does the reader suppose that is?

"having been purified" ritually - ceremonially - and in the temple.

having been purified, without any crowd or uproar. But there were some Jews from Asia— 19 who ought to have been present before you and to make accusation, if they should have anything against me. 20 Or else let these men themselves tell what misdeed they found when I stood before the Council,

==================================

Beyond all doubt - chapter 24 shows Paul to be a messianic Jew!!


in Christ,

Bob

What is your point about Paul being an MJ? There was no MJ designation in his day. Besides that he was living like a Gentile in Antioch.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Messianic Jew -- a Jew that accepts Jesus as the Messiah.

Many Jews were looking for the Messiah as Paul points out in Acts 24. But in Acts 21 we see actual Messianic Jews - those who accepted Jesus being addressed by Paul - who was taking that ceremonial vow for their benefit.

 

[bugkiller]

you have brought that up repeatedly and I have pretty much ignored it since we all know that Messianic Jews had access to their local synagogues "every Sabbath" as James points out in Acts 15.

I did not want to end your point too quickly by pointing this out early.

in Christ,

Bob

Oh, why then were they chased out, put in prison and even murdered out right. Would you go to church knowing you would get beaten? They did that to Paul.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Messianic Jew -- a Jew that accepts Jesus as the Messiah.

Many Jews were looking for the Messiah as Paul points out in Acts 24. But in Acts 21 we see actual Messianic Jews - those who accepted Jesus being addressed by Paul - who was taking that ceremonial vow for their benefit.

You're trying to place a 21/22 century designation on a 1st century man that didn't exist. There is nothing in literature anywhere to support your idea.

The only reason I can see for your argument is because you believe Christians are spiritual Israeli (Jews). That isn't supportable from the Bible either.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

you have brought that up repeatedly and I have pretty much ignored it since we all know that Messianic Jews had access to their local synagogues "every Sabbath" as James points out in Acts 15.

I did not want to end your point too quickly by pointing this out early.

in Christ,

Bob

As far as your other verses, on 2 threads I easily disected them, on my Paul fighting Messianic Judaism thread, all showing how Paul was about the resurrection not law, and sure, letting James and his church know he was not doing a Rom 3:8 teaching, so he took the vow, he did things for the gospel, becoming as a Jew in 21, and I handily took your verses and the way you use them, highlighting certain parts, to emphasize, what you want them to be, but what they are not about, on my other thread, here>>>

http://www.christianforums.com/t7877461/



As far as the synagogues in Acts 21, read this.



Acts 15:21.

Yep..I can see it now, the Christian disciples going into the synagogues, saying praise the Lord, the council said we do not have to be circumcised, we do not have to keep the Torah, and Peter said the Torah was a yoke that he nor the fathers could bear, and James said not to burden us with the Torah! Guess what synagogue leaders, the gospel is about faith and grace said Peter, Jew and Greek saved the same way, God shows no partiality, like Paul said in Rom 10:12.

My oh my, I am sure they would be welcomed in the synagogues..yep..

That verse was not saying the church was to keep Sabbath at all, in fact 15:21 was part of a larger narrative, that shows the opposite. They were just told no Torah.


Lets look at it with a proper text analysis, and interpretation, and reading the OT, from a NT vantage point.

Why would Paul want the believers in the synagogues, around the very environment he went to fight off in Jerusalem? Paul and crew were glad to not have the Torah yoke put on them, the churches. That would make no sense to have them in the environment Paul just fought off at the meeting.

They went to churches after the counsel meeting, not synagogues if you read 15, you will see that. They were glad about the decision, no circumcision, which meant no conversion to Judaism, and the law and Sabbath, food stuff, and feasts. The synagogue leaders, for the most part, not all, but most hated Paul, and whipped Paul at least 5 times, 39 lashes. The Christians would not be tolerated in the synagogues of the Jews, praising the Messiah, that the Jews rejected. The synagogues would now be hostile territory. So your interp of Acts 15:21, does not at all fit the narrative.

Like Paul would want his converts getting Judaized in the synagogues? I do not think so!


James was just saying, "don't freak out the Jews, all they know is Moses for 15 centuries".

 

[bugkiller]

As far as your other verses, on 2 threads I easily disected them, on my Paul fighting Messianic Judaism thread, all showing how Paul was about the resurrection not law, and sure, letting James and his church know he was not doing a Rom 3:8 teaching, so he took the vow, he did things for the gospel, becoming as a Jew in 21, and I handily took your verses and the way you use them, highlighting certain parts, to emphasize, what you want them to be, but what they are not about, on my other thread, here>>>

http://www.christianforums.com/t7877461/



As far as the synagogues in Acts 21, read this.



Acts 15:21.

Yep..I can see it now, the Christian disciples going into the synagogues, saying praise the Lord, the council said we do not have to be circumcised, we do not have to keep the Torah, and Peter said the Torah was a yoke that he nor the fathers could bear, and James said not to burden us with the Torah! Guess what synagogue leaders, the gospel is about faith and grace said Peter, Jew and Greek saved the same way, God shows no partiality, like Paul said in Rom 10:12.

My oh my, I am sure they would be welcomed in the synagogues..yep..

That verse was not saying the church was to keep Sabbath at all, in fact 15:21 was part of a larger narrative, that shows the opposite. They were just told no Torah.


Lets look at it with a proper text analysis, and interpretation, and reading the OT, from a NT vantage point.

Why would Paul want the believers in the synagogues, around the very environment he went to fight off in Jerusalem? Paul and crew were glad to not have the Torah yoke put on them, the churches. That would make no sense to have them in the environment Paul just fought off at the meeting.

They went to churches after the counsel meeting, not synagogues if you read 15, you will see that. They were glad about the decision, no circumcision, which meant no conversion to Judaism, and the law and Sabbath, food stuff, and feasts. The synagogue leaders, for the most part, not all, but most hated Paul, and whipped Paul at least 5 times, 39 lashes. The Christians would not be tolerated in the synagogues of the Jews, praising the Messiah, that the Jews rejected. The synagogues would now be hostile territory. So your interp of Acts 15:21, does not at all fit the narrative.

Like Paul would want his converts getting Judaized in the synagogues? I do not think so!


James was just saying, "don't freak out the Jews, all they know is Moses for 15 centuries".

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

bugkiller

At least we can put 15:21 to rest in the hall of truth...

 

[listed]

you have brought that up repeatedly and I have pretty much ignored it since we all know that Messianic Jews had access to their local synagogues "every Sabbath" as James points out in Acts 15.

I did not want to end your point too quickly by pointing this out early.

in Christ,

Bob

Those Messianic Jews were Jews and not Gentile MJs. Quite a difference.

 

[Frogster]

you have brought that up repeatedly and I have pretty much ignored it since we all know that Messianic Jews had access to their local synagogues "every Sabbath" as James points out in Acts 15.

I did not want to end your point too quickly by pointing this out early.

in Christ,

Bob

by 49 AD the synagogues were just for the Jews, not the Jewish Christians let alone Gentile Christians, especially with the persecuting zealots around in the synagogues. I emphasize Christian.

Gal 6:12 It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.