• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

Acts 16:14

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Hammster, Feb 15, 2014.

  1. shturt678s

    shturt678s Regular Member

    +70
    Lutheran
    Single
    Exactly, because the Kingdom of God was already bestowed upon her, and all that was needed was for her to acquire the Kingdom of God. :amen:

    Not intended to 'bug' you, however I think my office has been 'bugged,' seriously, ie, anybody have a 'bug' detector? :idea:

    Absolutely nothing! She had the right kind of 'hearing,' however prior to worshipping in the Synagogue on the Sabbath, previous to her excellent 'hearing,' her intellect, heart, and will of the natural woman all aptness, skill, capactiy, and ability to think, to understand, to work or concur in working anything good and right in spiritual things, including salvation itself. She like everybody else had an "enslaved-will," ie, no "free-will" for sure in response the next posit.

    Somebody said "When the solution is simple, God is answering," btw I'm the antithesis of God,

    Old wretch Jack looking for answers in all the right places ;)
     
  2. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

    +126
    Presbyterian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    As Ronald Reagan once said, "There ya go again." You're taking scripture out of context...again.

    Paul said that it is only in Christ that the veil taken is away (verse 14). So He was NOT talking about non-Christians. Paul was speaking to Christians. The issue Paul was addressing was their reliance on the letter of the law. Beginning with verse 4 Paul was trying to move them from the observance of letter to service in the spirit.

    It is CHRISTIANS who when they turn (rely) on the Lord that the veil is taken away and they can walk in liberty.


    Btw, this next point may be off topic but I cannot resist.

    If you look at the narrative regarding Lydia it says that she invited the apostles to her house if they judged her faithful to the Lord, that is, if they counted her a true believer (vs. 15).

    There's that apostolic authority popping up again I was telling you about, which you don't like. The apostles knew who would believe and who was and was not a true believer. As it was conferred upon Christ to know those things, so it was conferred upon the apostles by Christ to know those things.

    It looks like the little lady who sold purple linen had a higher view of apostolic authority than you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2014
  3. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +620
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    I find it amazing that you have come to this view that 'it must have hit a nerve'. What do you do?

    You started the thread this way:
    The 'nerve' for me is this: I know your Calvinistic agenda when you started this thread, that you've pushed on CF over and over. You seem to want to try to disprove Arminianism. I contemplated not responding to you as your imbalanced view is not what the Bible teaches in its totality.

    How do I know of this imbalance?

    The very chapter of the Bible that you use, Acts 16, provides the balance (not the contradiction) to Acts 16:14. The Lord opened Lydia's heart to respond to what Paul preached. But what is stated in Acts 16:31? It is a command for human beings to believe:
    The Lord opens the heart but he does not do it without the person believing.

    Lutheran commentator, R C H Lenski, explains this balanced view in his exegesis and exposition of Acts 16:14:
    So the biblical evidence from Acts 16 (not just v. 14) is that it is the Lord who opens the Lord but human beings believe (and refuse to believe). This has been God's approach from the OT into the NT and today:
    and,
    So I'm not restricted to pushing a one-sided agenda when the Bible gives both sides in Acts 16.

    It has nothing to do with 'it must have hit a nerve'. It has everything to do with being holistic in biblical presentation.

    In Christ,
    Oz

    Works consulted
    Lenski, R C H 1934. Commentary on the New Testament: The interpretation of the Acts of the Apostles. Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers (based on Lutheran Book Concern 1934; The wartburg Press 1944; Augsburg Publishing House 1961).
     
  4. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +620
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    I hope I've answered most of that at #103, but I will clarify.

    Why was it necessary for the Lord to open Lydia's heart? There is no salvation outside of the Lord's working in us.

    What was wrong with her? She was a sinner who needed justification, reconciliation and all that salvation can provide. She needed the application of Christ's shed blood and resurrection.

    As I've tried to demonstrate in #103, salvation is of the Lord but God demonstrates in Acts 16:31 that human beings need to respond by believing. Why? Because human beings can resist such offers of salvation.

    We know from the very first sin in the Garden (Genesis 2-3) that God did not take away human beings' free will to hear God and obey or disobey his instructions (Gen 3:2:9, 17; 3:5-13).

    In Christ,
    Oz
     
  5. Hammster

    Hammster Semper Fi! Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,544
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    If you aren't going to address the OP, I'm not sure why you even posted. Seems like a waste of time.
     
  6. AndOne

    AndOne Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

    +435
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    Good evening, Oz

    Is the quote above what you meant to write? That's what most of us Calvinists believe. I would say it falls under the head of doctrine: irresistible grace.
     
  7. Hammster

    Hammster Semper Fi! Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,544
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    So until the Lord opened her heart, there was no way she could respond positively to the gospel?
     
  8. AndOne

    AndOne Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

    +435
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    The way I read it is that The Lord opened her heart in order for her to be able to believe - and that His opening her heart was effectual (and always is).
     
  9. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +620
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    Ah, exactly what I expected. I addressed the post and you didn't like what I wrote so you give me this red herring.

    When will you wake up to the fact that this kind of response is what drives people away from pursuing the Calvinism that you want to define on CF. I provided evidence to refute your view; you didn't like it so you make it look like I didn't address the post. I addressed the post directly and came to a conclusion different to yours.

    If you give me another red herring, I will choose not to reply to you. When you engage in the use of a logical fallacy, it prevents a logical discussion.

    Oz
     
  10. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +620
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    So why does God discriminate and not open the heart of all human beings since he is the God of justice?

    Deut 32:3-4 states:
    Could it be that our understanding of the justice of God is incorrect and that our interpretations of election/predestination are skewed?
     
  11. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

    +126
    Presbyterian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    It is God that causes the resonse. That's what the op is all about. God opened Lydia's heart and she responded by listening to the apostles.

    Oh no? God banished the man from the garden and set cheribum to guard the tree of life to prevent man from gaining access to it.

    Man had no meaningful freedom after the fall.
     
  12. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +620
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    So until Lydia did not shut the door to her heart (that God had opened) and chose to believe in Jesus, there was no way she could respond positively to the Gospel?
     
  13. Hammster

    Hammster Semper Fi! Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,544
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Your post did not address the questions in the OP. Please stop with the bullying.
     
  14. Hammster

    Hammster Semper Fi! Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,544
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Why did you avoid answering my question? You aren't obligated to do so, but this dodging gets us nowhere.
     
  15. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +620
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    This is what happens with a one-eyed view of salvation. I showed you from Acts 16 that there is a demonstration of God opening Lydia's heart for salvation to take place. Then human beings are commanded to believe in the Lord Jesus. God opens the heart's door but there will be on entrance into salvation without the person walking through - it's called 'believe' on the Lord Jesus.

    No meaningful freedom, huh??? 'Choose this day whom you will serve' (Josh 24:15). That's God speaking through Joshua.

    We are not on the same page and I don't expect we will get to that page.
     
  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +620
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    I addressed your post directly. This is a false accusation. False accusations are called straw man fallacies. And we cannot have a logical discussion when you do this.

    I find that you are harassing me and this is against the rules of this forum.
     
  17. Hammster

    Hammster Semper Fi! Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,544
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    You addressed my post. You didn't answer my question. Again, you don't have to. But please do not pretend that you have.
     
  18. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +620
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    Who said?

    'Choose this day whom you will serve' (Josh 25:14). And that is not meaningful freedom???
     
  19. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

    +620
    Australia
    Baptist
    Private
    Please quit your harassment of me (which is against the rules of CF). In my country we call it bullying.
     
  20. Hammster

    Hammster Semper Fi! Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +16,544
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Then why did Lydia need her heart opened?
     
Loading...