Abortion Discussion

[Root of Jesse]

Attempting to legislate morality like this is a big part of the conservative Christian political movement. It's one way the GoP gets poor and middle class religious conservatives to vote against their economic best interests.

I believe morality should come from within. When I decided to finally quit smoking, it was my desire, not someone pushing me, or something.
And then your remark about the GOP...what about Dems getting the poor and middle class to vote against their own sustenance by promoting abortion and contraception? Why IS it that most Planned Parenthood clinics are in lower-class neighborhoods? Why not ask Margaret Sanger?

 

[Desk trauma]

Data is meant to be interpreted, and usually the interpreter has his own agenda. No thanks.

As I said, just ignore it.

Well, first of all, it wouldn't be pushing Christianity-it's Jewish in origin.

Which religion it is from is irrelevant.

Secondly, they're meant to teach people what's right and wrong. Now you'll say "your version of right and wrong", but I dare you to show me a society today that says it's ok to kill, steal, lie, cheat and want your neighbor's wife.

Are the religious commandments going to be excluded?

 

[Desk trauma]

What's more important is getting people to avoid unwanted pregnancies and STD's BY abiding by some sexual morals.

Such as use contraception if you don't want children?

 

[Archivist]

@Archivist I was unable to access the specific links you shared. I was able to find some information however most of it was not helpful. Here's what I've gotten thus far: http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1062&context=yjlf This article deals mainly with domestic violence and how it leads to battered women staying in relationships as servants to the abuser. Hence involuntary servitude. It doesn't even mention abortion except to reference another article. While it does speak of rape (79 references to rape) it does so in the context of violence towards women. It specifically mentions marital rape as an act of involuntary servitude. I'm not seeing the relevance of pregnancy to the issue of involuntary servitude. I do see how in the context of battered women, those situation can fall under the definition of involuntary servitude. Involuntary servitude is likened to slavery. It's a huge stretch to suggest that pregnancy is a form of slavery.

My bad. Sorry. Copied the wrong citation. Drawback with HeinOnline is that the full citations do not appear with the scanned PDFs, so you have to go back to the article list. Apparently I was not paying any attention because the title of thsi article wasn't even close. Try this one: Andrew Koppelman, "Forced Labor: A Thirteenth Amendment Defense of Abortion," 84 Northwestern Univ. Law Review 480-535. As I said before, this might not be available on the internet, but it will be available at any good academic law library or on Hein Online.

In my opinion, the idea that abortion should be allowed in cases of rape because a woman shouldn't be forced into involuntary servitude is just a huge stretch. Saying that pregnancy is like slavery amounts to a cheap rhetorical trick. A lawyer's slight of hand.

A "huge stretch," perhaps, for someone who will never be a victim of rape.

Pregnancy from rape accounts for less than 1% of all abortions.

According to the National Library of Medicine among adult women an estimated 32,101 pregnancies result from rape each year. That is a significant number, particularly if you are one of those 32,101 women. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8765248

If abortion were granted in the cases of rape, incest, and life of the mother, would you then agree to outlaw all other cases for abortion?

No, I would not.

If not, why then is the rape card necessary?

First, in my reply way back on page four of this thread I was replying to a post that said that abvortion should not be allowed even in cases of rape. Second, rape poses a special circumstance that does not exist in other abortion cases, that of involuntary servitude.

If I could get a bill signed that would ban all abortions except for rape, incest, and life of the mother, I'd sign it. 98% of all abortion would be eliminated immediately. Would you support such a bill?

No.

I doubt that rape is really the issue here. It's just a decoy. If you are one of those who wants women to have the right to kill the unborn at any time for any reason, then what difference does it make if it was via rape or consensual sex? Bringing rape into the discussion is just an appeal to emotion.

Becasue, as I already said, rape poses a special circumstance that does not exist in other cases. Maybe you don't have an objection to trampling on people's 13th Amendment rights, but I do.

So for the sake of discussion, we'll grant your argument the rape exception. Now we're left with the other 98% give or take. Let's outlaw those then. Victims of rape and incest can have abortions. That's it. For everyone else it's a crime. Rape problem solved and millions of babies lives saved. All in one post.

So you would make it illegal for women whose life was threatened by the pregnancy to have an abortion? Let's just make the pregnancy a death sentence for them.

 

[Archivist]

LOL....Maybe he has a financial interest in it.....

No, I made it clear that the articles I cited would be available in any good academic law library. Not everything is available on the internet.

 

[AirPo]

The proof is there. Children ARE the consequence of sex. Just because you think you have a way around it, that doesn't work too well, doesn't mean that children aren't the consequence of sex.

Not my guess, God's word.

I've had a lot more sex than I have children. Life is not a Monty Python movie.

 

[Teabag]

Thing is, sex is very pleasurable so can be hard to actually abstain from it. I guess its all about training your mind and willpower.

 

[BiblicalAstronomy]

Good point.

In Genesis God refers to each human life beginning at "begat" the fathering of a child. We call that conception in medical terms.

We also see in Leviticus 17 the life is in the blood of all creatures including humans who are made in the Image of God.

There's no dancing around God's design for procreation, which Adam and Eve did not experience.

Each one of these arguments from eisegesis of "it's not human until X time" have been soundly pounded to dust several times.

As a Christian, please stop wresting God's Written Word to fit a post modern rationalization to condone the premeditated murder of human life in the womb.

Yes, and God includes His Creation of Adam as the initial act where the human species could propagate based
on God's provisions in the human body @ Creation. He based His command to "be fruitful and multiply" on these provisions. Adam and Eve followed God's Command to "procreate," which includes all humanity except Jesus Christ. This agrees with God's design for procreation with no extra dance steps required, that Adam and Eve obediently shared in.

The case presented above is straight Biblical logic and includes no "wresting" of Scripture. These truths apply today just as they applied in OT History. Genesis 2:7 etc. sets a Biblical standard for when life begins whether you agree or not, and what you have presented has come nowhere close to "pounding anything to dust." Also you have never heard me condone anything in support of abortion, I have only stated a Biblical case from Scripture. Keep your judgments to yourself.

God Bless

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, and God includes His Creation of Adam as the initial act where the human species could propagate based
on God's provisions in the human body @ Creation. He based His command to "be fruitful and multiply" on these provisions. Adam and Eve followed God's Command to "procreate," which includes all humanity except Jesus Christ. This agrees with God's design for procreation with no extra dance steps required, that Adam and Eve obediently shared in.

The case presented above is straight Biblical logic and includes no "wresting" of Scripture. These truths apply today just as they applied in OT History. Genesis 2:7 etc. sets a Biblical standard for when life begins whether you agree or not, and what you have presented has come nowhere close to "pounding anything to dust." Also you have never heard me condone anything in support of abortion, I have only stated a Biblical case from Scripture. Keep your judgments to yourself.

God Bless

I believe you may have missed my point. Adam was created as an adult man. The breath of life was necessary. In procreation that breath of life comes in gestation in stages.

 

[Root of Jesse]

As I said, just ignore it.

Oh, I don't ignore it, I just note the source, and file it.

Which religion it is from is irrelevant.

So you include Judaism in your disgust at Christianity...?

Are the religious commandments going to be excluded?

Which ones do you find too religious? They're all religious.

 

[Desk trauma]

Oh, I don't ignore it, I just note the source, and file it.

Disregard it then.

So you include Judaism in your disgust at Christianity...?

My personal feelings about religion are irrelevant. The issue is that the state is not to promote religion. As I have said if it's a matter of history or comparative religion it's a non-issue.

Which ones do you find too religious?

One through four are explicitly religious commandments. The state has no place telling people which deity to worship nor how they are to worship that deity.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Such as use contraception if you don't want children?

Such as keep your pants on and your knees closed if you don't want children. Some people consider their risks before doing something risky, especially when the results could change their life.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I've had a lot more sex than I have children. Life is not a Monty Python movie.

So have I, but you better prepare for what might happen. I know people who will not use contraception, but are very fertile. They take it into consideration each time they want to have sex. They say it makes the sex more meaningful.

 

[Desk trauma]

Some people consider their risks before doing something risky, especially when the results could change their life.

Hence my usage of contraception.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Thing is, sex is very pleasurable so can be hard to actually abstain from it. I guess its all about training your mind and willpower.

That's true, it can be. If you live your life in pursuit of pleasure, to the exclusion of those things that are important, like financial well-being or moral well-being, you will end up being disappointed sooner or later. The thrills will be lesser and you'll need more or more intense pleasure to get the same jollies.

 

[Desk trauma]

So have I, but you better prepare for what might happen.

Does my seeking surgical sterilization count as preparing?

They say it makes the sex more meaningful.

For me that would add stress not meaning.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Disregard it then.



My personal feelings about religion are irrelevant. The issue is that the state is not to promote religion. As I have said if it's a matter of history or comparative religion it's a non-issue.

So how does having the 10 Commandments 'promote' religion?

One through four are explicitly religious commandments. The state has no place telling people which deity to worship nor how they are to worship that deity.

Well, the State is not telling anyone anything. God is...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Hence my usage of contraception.

Doesn't work 100%...there's always doubt.

 

[Desk trauma]

So how does having the 10 Commandments 'promote' religion?

It is an explicitly religious list of laws. How is reading religious material out to a class, excluding the contexts I have mentioned, not promoting it?

Well, the State is not telling anyone anything. God is...

When it's the representatives of the state promoting it, it's the state doing the telling.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Does my seeking surgical sterilization count as preparing?

People do all sorts of unnatural things to themselves. Tatoos, piercing, genital mutilation, whatever your bag is, keep it.

For me that would add stress not meaning.

I understand that, for you. When I have sex with my wife, God is there with me. So, too, with the couple I mentioned. When you realize God is in control, you tend to destress your life.