Abortion Discussion

[OrthodoxForever]

Please, please, please stay on topic here guys... I think this is an important discussion for the Body of Christ as a whole along with society at large to have but the last thread addressing it got overrun with an off topic argument and closed... Please stay on topic...

Here are my basic beliefs on the subject of abortion:

Pro-Life

1. Abortion is murder. It is an affront not just to Christian teaching but to the very foundations of modern society. It takes the rule of law and due process and throws both out the window to allow adults, women like myself in particular, to kill their own offspring for even the most arbitrary of reasons. In most cases it's an evil and barbaric practice that in an ideal world should be criminalized outside of extreme circumstances. To clarify what I mean by "Extreme Circumstances" if there's a higher than 55% chance that the mother will die if she gives birth or carries to term, or if there is less than a 10% chance that the child will be born alive. Even at that point abortion is a necessary evil. It is never right, but there are situations in which it is still better than the alternative and any legal sanctions against it MUST provide exceptions to take those situations into account.

2. We do not live in that ideal world. Therefore whether we believe abortion to be right or wrong our time is better spent creating a world in which abortion is as unneeded and uncommon as possible. What will help that happen? Increased access to preventative birth-control, better and more widespread sex education, more resources for pregnant women regardless or age or background, and much needed reforms to the current adoption and foster-care systems.

3. Until the points outlined above in #2 are accomplished criminalizing abortion would solve very little and create more problems than it gets rid of.

4. I do not fly with the "quality of life" "sick kids shouldn't even be born" argument...

 

[KitKatMatt]

I'm not sure what we're supposed to be discussing, here. Are we supposed to be stating our own beliefs?

I definitely agree with your point 2. I wish I could see all of these things be implemented. Not only would it reduce the need for abortion, but it would help so much to support children and parents all together.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

I'm not sure what we're supposed to be discussing, here. Are we supposed to be stating our own beliefs?

I definitely agree with your point 2. I wish I could see all of these things be implemented. Not only would it reduce the need for abortion, but it would help so much to support children and parents all together.

Yes, state your own beliefs and reply to the others in the thread

 

[KitKatMatt]

1. We can definitely reduce the number of abortions and the demand for abortions by supporting comprehensive sexual education and the families themselves. Government funded daycare, paid parental leave (long enough for the woman to fully recover from birth), improvements to benefits like SNAP and WIC, free/cheap healthcare for everyone, and things along these lines will help support the families.

2. I do not believe that even if we had all of these things, we would completely eliminate the need for abortion. Contraceptives will still occasionally fail and may not be immediately noticed, rape unfortunately still exists, and medical complications can still happen and endanger the mother's life. Because of this, I believe that abortion should always remain legal, BUT of course we should do everything we can to reduce the need in all the areas that we can.

I guess there should be a number three, but I'm blanking.

 

[Shempster]

Whilst I agree with and applaud your views on abortion, what you are attempting to do is to convince liberal minded people that abortion is wrong. You are going to fail.fail.fail. Not because your logic is weak or the bible is weak. Its because you are a left-brained person trying to convince a right-brained person that left-brain thinking is superior. Its the same thing as when someone posts a FB story about how that opposing political
member does something that seems hypocritical to you. All it does in the end is embolden the opposing view. It has been scientifically proven. Its weird, but true.
What we need to do is explain out point from the OTHER persons viewpoint.

Just for kicks, go to the "Christian Left" page on FB. Look thru a bunch of pages. Try to understand the world from THEIR viewpoint. Then you can properly engage them and perhaps explain YOUR side in a way THEY can understand.
Conservatives and liberals are not enemies. Satan is our enemy.

 

[PapaZoom]

I disagree with number 3. http://www.ehd.org/prenatal-images-index.php

 

[DogmaHunter]

1. Abortion is murder.

Murder is a legal term. Abortion is not part of its definition.

if there's a higher than 55% chance that the mother will die if she gives birth or carries to term

Who gave you the right to decide for other people what an "acceptable risk" is?
And why 55? Why not 60? Or 40? Or 5?
Where did that number come from? Pulled it out of your hat?

, or if there is less than a 10% chance that the child will be born alive

Same as above...
Who gave you the right to decide for other people what an "acceptable risk" is?
And why 10? Why not 60? Or 40? Or 23?
Where did that number come from? Pulled it out of your hat?

3. Until the points outlined above in #2 are accomplished criminalizing abortion would solve very little and create more problems than it gets rid of.

That would not change once those points are accomplished.

4. I do not fly with the "quality of life" "sick kids shouldn't even be born" argument...

I do not fly with your religiously influenced arguments. What now?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I think the Catholic Church is targeted for its anti gay and anti abortion stance, because this conveniently masks some of its more positive or pro social political moral and ethical teachings, etc.

When the other pope mentioned a "culture of death" I think he wanted to promote not only "anti abortionism" but also a positive and caring attitude towards life and a sense of sacredness of people and community.

What business it is of the mainstream press to want to thrwart or distance the focus on this I am not sure. But I think its a case of "we breed for money, muscle and brains" rather than listen to pontificating pontifs.

They may have point, rationalism might be a safer bet than theocracy, but I still think the focal point is a bit like a death ray. I mean, focusing on a weakness at expense of strength is not a sound policy. Unless youre a defensor infidel, and are waging all out war against the church.

 

[Archivist]

Here are my basic beliefs on the subject of abortion:

Pro-Life

1. Abortion is murder. It is an affront not just to Christian teaching but to the very foundations of modern society. It takes the rule of law and due process and throws both out the window to allow adults, women like myself in particular, to kill their own offspring for even the most arbitrary of reasons. In most cases it's an evil and barbaric practice that in an ideal world should be criminalized outside of extreme circumstances. To clarify what I mean by "Extreme Circumstances" if there's a higher than 55% chance that the mother will die if she gives birth or carries to term, or if there is less than a 10% chance that the child will be born alive. Even at that point abortion is a necessary evil. It is never right, but there are situations in which it is still better than the alternative and any legal sanctions against it MUST provide exceptions to take those situations into account.

2. We do not live in that ideal world. Therefore whether we believe abortion to be right or wrong our time is better spent creating a world in which abortion is as unneeded and uncommon as possible. What will help that happen? Increased access to preventative birth-control, better and more widespread sex education, more resources for pregnant women regardless or age or background, and much needed reforms to the current adoption and foster-care systems.

3. Until the points outlined above in #2 are accomplished criminalizing abortion would solve very little and create more problems than it gets rid of.

4. I do not fly with the "quality of life" "sick kids shouldn't even be born" argument...

Pro-Choice

1. Abortion is not murder. Murder is a legal term and abortion does not fit the definition.

2. Agreed.

3. Yes, criminalizing abortion would not stop abortion. We would see a return to unsafe back alley abortions.

4. In general yes, although I understand that there are certain medical conditions such as anencephaly that would usually prevent a baby from surviving more than a few hours or days after its birth. In those cases I see nothing wrong with allowing the pregnant woman to have an abortion. In any event I believe that the choice should remain with the pregnant woman.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

Whilst I agree with and applaud your views on abortion, what you are attempting to do is to convince liberal minded people that abortion is wrong. You are going to fail.fail.fail. Not because your logic is weak or the bible is weak. Its because you are a left-brained person trying to convince a right-brained person that left-brain thinking is superior. Its the same thing as when someone posts a FB story about how that opposing political
member does something that seems hypocritical to you. All it does in the end is embolden the opposing view. It has been scientifically proven. Its weird, but true.
What we need to do is explain out point from the OTHER persons viewpoint.

Just for kicks, go to the "Christian Left" page on FB. Look thru a bunch of pages. Try to understand the world from THEIR viewpoint. Then you can properly engage them and perhaps explain YOUR side in a way THEY can understand.
Conservatives and liberals are not enemies. Satan is our enemy.

To be honest I try not to get involved in left vs. Right winged arguments since I am neither. I focus instead on sound information and Christian moral principles leading me to certain decisions.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

I do not fly with your religiously influenced arguments. What now?

Funny that you say that on the least religiously influenced of everything above. As for the numbers, they are not exact. I was going for over half and almost no chance...

 

[FreakOnALeash]

I could never tell a girl or woman what to do with HER body, I think if a girl chose to have an abortion she has the ultimate right not me even if for example I helped her get the baby, it's still not my ultimate choice it's hers, it is her body.

My thoughts are that if I knew of a little girl that had been raped and she was too young to have a child and could die like if she was 8 or something...... Then I think abortion is a good idea.

My main problem when I learned about the whole abortion thing is a good friend of mine once told me after I knew him for years and I never known this before, he said he was going to be an abortion......... His parents were basically told he would be born mentally and physically disabled and they were advices that the best option was an abortion but his mom and dad who are great people really nice and laid back, his parents are atheists not that it's the point, they said no to the abortion and said we will love him no matter what. I never even knew this guy could of been a potential abortion, there is NOTHING wrong with him, top marks in school and everything. When I heard him tell me about this though it made me worry about how people make mistakes and give wrong advice like on the abortion of a perfectly healthy potential human. Not cool.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

I could never tell a girl or woman what to do with HER body, I think if a girl chose to have an abortion she has the ultimate right not me even if for example I helped her get the baby, it's still not my ultimate choice it's hers, it is her body.

My thoughts are that if I knew of a little girl that had been raped and she was too young to have a child and could die like if she was 8 or something...... Then I think abortion is a good idea.

My main problem when I learned about the whole abortion thing is a good friend of mine once told me after I knew him for years and I never known this before, he said he was going to be an abortion......... His parents were basically told he would be born mentally and physically disabled and they were advices that the best option was an abortion but his mom and dad who are great people really nice and laid back, his parents are atheists not that it's the point, they said no to the abortion and said we will love him no matter what. I never even knew this guy could of been a potential abortion, there is NOTHING wrong with him, top marks in school and everything. When I heard him tell me about this though it made me worry about how people make mistakes and give wrong advice like on the abortion of a perfectly healthy potential human. Not cool.

Freak, I agree with you that people make mistakes about the potential of a baby to survive and live a normal life. I and three of my friends were children who could have been aborted had my parents known about my issues before birth or the other parents not adamantly opposed to the idea.

 

[Julie.S]

I think abortion is bad yes but I'm not going to go and verbally attack someone who has had it done that solves nothing and creates more problems.

I think if the life of the mother or child is at risk things need to be done until nothing more can be and then a decision can be made.

I'm never going to tell someone what to do with their life or body it's not my call unless there is a high chance of them dying.

I think if we want to try and stop abortion from happening or have enough medical options ready. Then we need to make the adoption process easier as well. Families need to have access to care if need be before and after the adoption. Things like counseling if needed and such.

People would be having children they may not be able to keep and services need to be provided for them and the child.

This is my take on it. I am adopted myself and I know how much good it can do.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

I think abortion is bad yes but I'm not going to go and verbally attack someone who has had it done that solves nothing and creates more problems.

I think if the life of the mother or child is at risk things need to be done until nothing more can be and then a decision can be made.

I'm never going to tell someone what to do with their life or body it's not my call unless there is a high chance of them dying.

I think if we want to try and stop abortion from happening or have enough medical options ready. Then we need to make the adoption process easier as well. Families need to have access to care if need be before and after the adoption. Things like counseling if needed and such.

People would be having children they may not be able to keep and services need to be provided for them and the child.

This is my take on it. I am adopted myself and I know how much good it can do.

So you wouldn't try to stop someone from aborting, but you might tell someone to if there was a chance the mother's life would be at risk?

That's one of the few instances in which I understand it as a necessary evil but I could still never tell someone to, only that at that point it's there choice...

 

[Julie.S]

So you wouldn't try to stop someone from aborting, but you might tell someone to if there was a chance the mother's life would be at risk?

That's one of the few instances in which I understand it as a necessary evil but I could still never tell someone to, only that at that point it's there choice...

I can not control a person's actions at all. I can only tell them things it's out of my hands in the end.

 

[AirPo]

To be honest I try not to get involved in left vs. Right winged arguments since I am neither. I focus instead on sound information and Christian moral principles leading me to certain decisions.

"Abortion is murder" is not sound information.

 

[jayem]

To clarify what I mean by "Extreme Circumstances" if there's a higher than 55% chance that the mother will die if she gives birth or carries to term, or if there is less than a 10% chance that the child will be born alive.

In the real world, that's not at all realistic. I'm a health care provider. I've seen several pregnant patients who developed serious medical conditions in early pregnancy that potentially threatened their lives. One had a major heart attack at about 2 months, complicated by congestive heart failure. Another was diagnosed with a high-grade non-Hodgkin's lymphoma at 6 weeks. Even very experienced specialists and high-risk OBs couldn't give a prognosis with that degree of precision. These are very difficult medical judgements and nothing as specific as you posted could ever be codified into law.

2. We do not live in that ideal world. Therefore whether we believe abortion to be right or wrong our time is better spent creating a world in which abortion is as unneeded and uncommon as possible. What will help that happen? Increased access to preventative birth-control, better and more widespread sex education, more resources for pregnant women regardless or age or background, and much needed reforms to the current adoption and foster-care systems.

Agreed. And here's an idea I've had for a another way to reduce abortions. No criminalization, and no government involved. Why not incentivize adoption? And what better incentive than cash? We establish a nationwide, non-profit, tax-exempt charity to compensate women who place newborns with qualified adoption agencies. Here's a possible scenario:

There must be there at least 30,000,000 committed pro-life citizens in the US. Suppose each made a $100 a year (only $8.33 a month) tax-deductible donation. That would raise $3 billion. Ramp it up over 5 years, and we have $15 billion. (There may well be more, counting corporate donations.) Invested conservatively at a 3% yield, this would generate $450 million in annual income. Take off 10% for expenses and admin, and that leaves $405 million. That could pay $4500 to each of 90,000 women who didn't terminate and placed their babies for adoption. That's about a 10% reduction in total abortions. As the years go by, and hopefully the fund grows, more women can be served, and more abortions averted. It could be a win-win all around. Lives are spared, babies are available for people who really want children, and birth moms get a cash nest egg they can use as they need (ideally to better their lives.) Why not?

 

[OrthodoxForever]

In the real world, that's not at all realistic. I'm a health care provider. I've seen several pregnant patients who developed serious medical conditions in early pregnancy that potentially threatened their lives. One had a major heart attack at about 2 months, complicated by congestive heart failure. Another was diagnosed with a high-grade non-Hodgkin's lymphoma at 6 weeks. Even very experienced specialists and high-risk OBs couldn't give a prognosis with that degree of precision. These are very difficult medical judgements and nothing as specific as you posted could ever be codified into law.



Agreed. And here's an idea I've had for a another way to reduce abortions. No criminalization, and no government involved. Why not incentivize adoption? And what better incentive than cash? We establish a nationwide, non-profit, tax-exempt charity to compensate women who place newborns with qualified adoption agencies. Here's a possible scenario:

There must be there at least 30,000,000 committed pro-life citizens in the US. Suppose each made a $100 a year (only $8.33 a month) tax-deductible donation. That would raise $3 billion. Ramp it up over 5 years, and we have $15 billion. (There may well be more, counting corporate donations.) Invested conservatively at a 3% yield, this would generate $450 million in annual income. Take off 10% for expenses and admin, and that leaves $405 million. That could pay $4500 to each of 90,000 women who didn't terminate and placed their babies for adoption. That's about a 10% reduction in total abortions. As the years go by, and hopefully the fund grows, more women can be served, and more abortions averted. It could be a win-win all around. Lives are spared, babies are available for people who really want children, and birth moms get a cash nest egg they can use as they need (ideally to better their lives.) Why not?

If we incentivize adoption we'll only end up intensifying one of foster-care's biggest problems, too many so-called care-givers who are only in it for the money...

 

[OrthodoxForever]

"Abortion is murder" is not sound information.

Nor is "the unborn are nothing but parasitic tumors" which is a lie the pro-choice crowd loves