Abortion Discussion

[Root of Jesse]

I see no case in which the adage does not reduce the man involved to a totally self centered individual using a woman for sex and the women being used as an object to be obtained. What am I missing?

God. That's what you're missing.

 

[Desk trauma]

God. That's what you're missing.

Adding theism to my world view does not change the nature of that saying.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Attempting to legislate morality like this is a big part of the conservative Christian political movement. It's one way the GoP gets poor and middle class religious conservatives to vote against their economic best interests.

You didn't answer his question, just made a political statement......

 

[civilwarbuff]

I see no case in which the adage does not reduce the man involved to a totally self centered individual using a woman for sex and the women being used as an object to be obtained. What am I missing?

Please tell tell me that you are just pulling my leg, right? I mean there is no way a person could not understand this old adage...

 

[Desk trauma]

Please tell tell me that you are just pulling my leg, right? I mean there is no way a person could not understand this old adage...

It paints a very poor picture of all involved. Men only want women for sex, men will not marry if they can get it, women selling them selves is not the issue only that they don't demand a high enough price.

That's my take away from it. What am I missing?

 

[civilwarbuff]

It paints a very poor picture of all involved. Men only want women for sex, men will not marry if they can get it, women selling them selves is not the issue only that they don't demand a high enough price.

That's my take away from it. What am I missing?

That women want sex to....just in case you haven't noticed......

 

[redleghunter]

GEN. 2:7 tells us MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL when he took his first breath. As you point out, Adam not being in the womb, his first breath was OXYGEN. This is the same standard that applies today. The fetus is not breathing AIR in the womb and it is not breathing under its own power, but parasitically off its Mother-host. When the fetus is born and takes its first breath of Air under its own power, it has became a living Soul...

You are comparing tangerines to oranges.

 

[civilwarbuff]

GEN. 2:7 tells us MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL when he took his first breath. As you point out, Adam not being in the womb, his first breath was OXYGEN. This is the same standard that applies today. The fetus is not breathing AIR in the womb and it is not breathing under its own power, but parasitically off its Mother-host. When the fetus is born and takes its first breath of Air under its own power, it has became a living Soul...

And it still lives "parasitically" off of its' parents....maybe that is the time to kill......

 

[BiblicalAstronomy]

You do realize that James could be Jesus brother, but not Mary's son?

Have you ever read Matt. 13:55?

"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?"

These Brethren of Jesus are all quoted in context of His Mother called Mary...

How about Matt. 27:56? [Mk. 15:40, 47]

Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children. Mark 6:3 adds his sisters and daughters of Mary to the Mix...

This verse explicitly states that Mary was the Mother of James and Joses.

When we base our realizations on the unshakable foundation of Scripture, we remain on solid ground, conjecture is not worth much outside of that.

 

[BiblicalAstronomy]

And it still lives "parasitically" off of its' parents....maybe that is the time to kill......

There are probably many parents who would agree with you there, but at least they had a chance to figure it out...

 

[BiblicalAstronomy]

You are comparing tangerines to oranges.

No that' s comparing Scripture with Scripture which is If I recall; what we are supposed to be doing!

 

[civilwarbuff]

No that' s comparing Scripture with Scripture which is If I recall; what we are supposed to be doing!

Uh, what are babies made out of?....and what was Adam made from? You are in fact comparing human flesh to dust.....worse than tangerines to oranges.....

 

[redleghunter]

No that' s comparing Scripture with Scripture which is If I recall; what we are supposed to be doing!

We are. How you justify abortion based on the first created man compared to procreated humans is not sound exegesis.

Why? Because Genesis tells us a human life begins with the fathering of a child and not birth.

For you to hold your view abortion would be permissible morally at 9 months. There's more body of scripture against your eisegesis.

 

[PapaZoom]

My bad. Sorry. Copied the wrong citation. Drawback with HeinOnline is that the full citations do not appear with the scanned PDFs, so you have to go back to the article list. Apparently I was not paying any attention because the title of thsi article wasn't even close. Try this one: Andrew Koppelman, "Forced Labor: A Thirteenth Amendment Defense of Abortion," 84 Northwestern Univ. Law Review 480-535. As I said before, this might not be available on the internet, but it will be available at any good academic law library or on Hein Online.



A "huge stretch," perhaps, for someone who will never be a victim of rape.



According to the National Library of Medicine among adult women an estimated 32,101 pregnancies result from rape each year. That is a significant number, particularly if you are one of those 32,101 women. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8765248



No, I would not.



First, in my reply way back on page four of this thread I was replying to a post that said that abvortion should not be allowed even in cases of rape. Second, rape poses a special circumstance that does not exist in other abortion cases, that of involuntary servitude.
No.
Becasue, as I already said, rape poses a special circumstance that does not exist in other cases. Maybe you don't have an objection to trampling on people's 13th Amendment rights, but I do.
So you would make it illegal for women whose life was threatened by the pregnancy to have an abortion? Let's just make the pregnancy a death sentence for them.

Then it makes no sense why you play the rape card since you aren't interested in that being an exception to abortion restrictions. That along with incest and life of mother aren't enough for you. You want all abortions at any time for any reason to be legal. So your rape argument is a ploy it seems.

 

[Archivist]

Then it makes no sense why you play the rape card since you aren't interested in that being an exception to abortion restrictions. That along with incest and life of mother aren't enough for you. You want all abortions at any time for any reason to be legal. So your rape argument is a ploy it seems.

Baloney. At no point in this thread have I ever said that I support legal abortion "at any time for any reason." In fact, I have stated that I support the Supreme Court's Casey decision that held that states can ban abortions after the point of viability so long as they allow exceptions for the life and health of the pregnant woman. Try sticking with the truth instead of making stuff up.

Second, rape and incest are special cases that differ from Most abortions. No woman should be forced to carry a fetus that was a product of rape to term against her will. To require her to do so would violate her 13th Amendment rights. Likewise no woman should be required to carry a fetus to ten if the pregnancy threatens her life or health because that would violate her right to self-preservation. If is important to maintain these distinctions because there are people out there who would ban abortion in all cases and not allow these exceptions to remain. Fortunately such people are in the minority and hopefully such extremists will never have their way.

 

[KCfromNC]

The proof is there. Children ARE the consequence of sex. Just because you think you have a way around it, that doesn't work too well

If you're just going to make stuff up there's really nothing for me to respond to. You're welcome to your faith that contraception doesn't work, but have fun convincing anyone else. But please keep trying - the more we can link anti-abortion activists with people opposed to birth control, the more marginalized those groups will become.

 

[tiglathpileser]

edit

You must be referring to the establishment clause. This only prevents the federal government from establishing a "national" religion and interfering with the free exercise of religious beliefs.....not separating church and state. You find that statement no where in the Constitution.

That is the truth but I find that atheists are not too keen on that. Their modus operandi is usually to deny the truth with some imagined claim that suggests their ideas are plausible but ours are not. Having said that I will probably be reported to the Moderators by an atheist because they get very upset when you suggest they are less than perfect.

I have studied American History because it is interesting and it is a great nation and anyone who studies it dispassionately can see that it is obvious that the founding fathers who were wanting to escape the government religion of the UK were making sure that the government of America never establishes a government religion which prevented the free exercise of religious belief in the UK and that every American citizen was free to follow the religion of their choice.

The separation of church and state has been invented by atheists to try and shut down religious belief, but the fact is you can't separate what does not exist.

 

[PapaZoom]

Baloney. At no point in this thread have I ever said that I support legal abortion "at any time for any reason." In fact, I have stated that I support the Supreme Court's Casey decision that held that states can ban abortions after the point of viability so long as they allow exceptions for the life and health of the pregnant woman. Try sticking with the truth instead of making stuff up.

Second, rape and incest are special cases that differ from Most abortions. No woman should be forced to carry a fetus that was a product of rape to term against her will. To require her to do so would violate her 13th Amendment rights. Likewise no woman should be required to carry a fetus to ten if the pregnancy threatens her life or health because that would violate her right to self-preservation. If is important to maintain these distinctions because there are people out there who would ban abortion in all cases and not allow these exceptions to remain. Fortunately such people are in the minority and hopefully such extremists will never have their way.

I'm glad then to be an extremist if that means I want to protect all life in the womb- including those conceived in rape. It follows then that the non-extremists favor allowing the unborn to be killed for just about any reason.

This one survived. Conceived not from rape but from very difficult circumstances.

this next lady was conceived in rape

LAYNE BEACHLEY - 7 TIME WORLD CHAMPION SURFER
Layne Beachley's mother Maggie Gardner was 17, and newly arrived in Sydney from Scotland in 1971. She was date-raped after she accepted a dinner invitation from the manager of a Kings Cross modelling agency. Layne was adopted by a North Balgowlah couple and grew up on Manly Beach in Australia. In December 1999, she announced she had found her birth mother; her six straight world titles ensured the story was widely reported in the media.

Read more about Layne here
http://www.prolifeinfo.ie/abortion/childs-view/conceived-through-rape/

 

[tiglathpileser]

I'm glad then to be an extremist if that means I want to protect all life in the womb- including those conceived in rape. It follows then that the non-extremists favor allowing the unborn to be killed for just about any reason.

This one survived. Conceived not from rape but from very difficult circumstances.

this next lady was conceived in rape

LAYNE BEACHLEY - 7 TIME WORLD CHAMPION SURFER
Layne Beachley's mother Maggie Gardner was 17, and newly arrived in Sydney from Scotland in 1971. She was date-raped after she accepted a dinner invitation from the manager of a Kings Cross modelling agency. Layne was adopted by a North Balgowlah couple and grew up on Manly Beach in Australia. In December 1999, she announced she had found her birth mother; her six straight world titles ensured the story was widely reported in the media.

Read more about Layne here
http://www.prolifeinfo.ie/abortion/childs-view/conceived-through-rape/

Thankyou for those pictures of the gorgeous looking babies. And you are right. Killing is no way to planned parenthood. The fact is killing is the way to planned non parenthood.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

It is existing and can be pointed to as "one thing," and that thing is very properly and TOTALLY TRULY called a fetus, an existing unique fetus. "Individual" if you want to call it that.
Certainly not a human being, not an actual born member of an animal species.

I would like to remind you that the term “fetus” is actually the Latin for child, which is evidence that the unborn is certainly a human being. There is no wiggle room here to deny what is patently evident.