Abortion Discussion

[Root of Jesse]

And, if you've quite finished blowing hot air, you might care to address the findings in that study?

I'll do it for him. I don't think they have any merit.

 

[SteveB28]

I'll do it for him. I don't think they have any merit.

And why would that be? Because it offends your prejudices? That's one of the unfortunate consequences of statistical studies - they tell you how things are, without any consideration for your feelings. But at least you get a true picture.

There is a very, very clear correlation between the implementation of the 'Abstinence Only' programs and the rise in teen pregnancies, births and sexually transmissible diseases. That you don't want to accept it is your problem. The rest of us will keep looking for real solutions.

 

[Uncle Siggy]

I guess it is also easier to demonize a group of people if you pretend they're evil rather than taking the time to try and understand if they have a legitimate opinion.

Evil no, Dumb yes...

 

[Uncle Siggy]

consequences

That's a 4 letter word in today's world...

 

[civilwarbuff]

And, if you've quite finished blowing hot air, you might care to address the findings in that study?

I really found no fault with it. It appears to be a solid piece of work.......I always look at the methodolgy...usually the weakest point in a study.

 

[Desk trauma]

Oh, so you're going to blame the 'participants' for not following the premise?

I'm going with what works. If abortion is the great evil that you contend it is I would think that you are interested in things that help prevent it.

My point is that when it is used correctly it is 100% effective.

Yet in real world conditions curriculums that center on it produce worse outcomes. What is more important to you, preventing abortion or demanding people adhere to your sexual morals?

Same cannot be said for birth control methods, which results in women having abortions.

The teaching methods you favor result in higher rates of unwanted pregnancies, higher rates of STIs and more abortions. Again, what is more important people abiding by your sexual morals or people not being in situations where abortion is likely?

You do also know that the availability of birth control and abortion makes women more sex objects than before, when they weren't so readily available, right?

Others may think that way, I do not.

 

[Desk trauma]

That follows the old adage: Why buy the cow when the milk is free?

I find that idea particularly odious. My partner and I are not in some sort of adversarial business arrangement where her body, or rather her genitalia, is a commodity that we bargain over.

 

[Root of Jesse]

And why would that be? Because it offends your prejudices?

As if your prejudices are greater than mine?

That's one of the unfortunate consequences of statistical studies - they tell you how things are, without any consideration for your feelings. But at least you get a true picture.

No, they give you some numbers and leave it for you to interpret, according to your prejudices.

There is a very, very clear correlation between the implementation of the 'Abstinence Only' programs and the rise in teen pregnancies, births and sexually transmissible diseases. That you don't want to accept it is your problem. The rest of us will keep looking for real solutions.

What is your executive summary of an Abstinence Only program???
Also note that I have never said anything about "Abstinence Only". I said it should be taught as the primary way to prevent STD, unwanted pregnancy and abortion.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I don't see how using more effective solutions as imperfect.

You have no proof of "more" effective.

If it's a history or comparative religion class I take no issue with teaching about any religion but a school pushing Islam is just as much a violation as it pushing Christianity.

Answer this for me: How is reading the 10 Commandments in school pushing Christianity?

I am aware of that but it has no bearing on the law or the case anymore then if the plaintiffs from Brown Vs. Board of education had latter come to be segregationist black nationalists.

So we will continue to try to overturn it. I hope I live to see it.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Oh, you can quite easily disprove it for yourself. Just study the numbers obtained from the results of programs focusing on 'abstinence only', with regards to teen pregnancy rates, sexually transmitted diseases, etc. The findings are quite clear.

You mean that, when humans take abstinence only seriously, and use it, that it works 100%? Whereas if you tell them 'try not to do it, but if you do, use condoms or birth control pills, and hope that they'll work, if not, go get an abortion.You have a safety net", that's a better alternative? But don't tell them that an abortion snuffs out a human life...and don't do sonograms on pregnant women considering abortions so that they can lie to themselves that it's just an it in there...

 

[Root of Jesse]

The point being that all of those birth control methods have measurably greater levels of efficacy than your preferred strategy of just "saying no"!

What's greater than 100%? Are condoms 100% effective? Are birth control pills 100% effective? Abstinence is 100% effective when used.

So, I repeat my original statement. That it has been you lot who have constantly stood in the way of effective sex education programs being made available to young people. Your intransigence has contributed to the very issue that you rail about so feverishly; viz, the number of abortions performed each year. Research shows conclusively that one of the primary strategies for reducing that rate is access to effective sex education programs!

Have never stood in the way of sex education. I just want it taught properly. Abstinence and fidelity first. That abortion is taking a human life. That there are forms of birth control you can use, but they are not completely effective, even if you use them exactly how they're meant to be used.

 

[Desk trauma]

You have no proof of "more" effective.

Just ignore the data presented earlier.

Answer this for me: How is reading the 10 Commandments in school pushing Christianity?

Depends on what you mean by reading out. If it's part of a history curriculum or comparative religion curriculum it's appropriate.

 

[Desk trauma]

Whereas if you tell them 'try not to do it, but if you do, use condoms or birth control pills, and hope that they'll work, if not, go get an abortion.You have a safety net", that's a better alternative?

The data indicates that it is.

What's more important, getting people to abide by your sexual morals or avoiding unwanted pregnancies and STIs?

 

[KCfromNC]

But just as sex education shouldn't start with condom and BC information, abortion counseling should start by offering a way for the woman to have the child, and then give it up for adoption.

Lots of shoulds and shouldn'ts here, not to much understanding that yours is one opinion of many.

 

[KCfromNC]

Punish? Where did I use that word? Besides, most sin is self-caused, not caused by someone else. I just think that someone who is involved in initiating a pregnancy should at least carry it to full term.

So children should be a consequence of sex even if the people involved don't want them? Sounds awfully close to a punishment to me.

At least you realize that is just your guess on the matter rather than some sort of unquestionable conclusion.

 

[KCfromNC]

What's so 'conservative' about telling people it's ok to have sex, drink alcohol, and eat, as long as you do them at the right place, right time, right circumstances? I mean, we do have LAWS that say that children can't drink (whether they're enforced or not), why should we promote unfettered sex?

Attempting to legislate morality like this is a big part of the conservative Christian political movement. It's one way the GoP gets poor and middle class religious conservatives to vote against their economic best interests.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Just ignore the data presented earlier.

Data is meant to be interpreted, and usually the interpreter has his own agenda. No thanks.

Depends on what you mean by reading out. If it's part of a history curriculum or comparative religion curriculum it's appropriate.

Well, first of all, it wouldn't be pushing Christianity-it's Jewish in origin. Secondly, they're meant to teach people what's right and wrong. Now you'll say "your version of right and wrong", but I dare you to show me a society today that says it's ok to kill, steal, lie, cheat and want your neighbor's wife.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The data indicates that it is.

What's more important, getting people to abide by your sexual morals or avoiding unwanted pregnancies and STIs?

What's more important is getting people to avoid unwanted pregnancies and STD's BY abiding by some sexual morals. Don't have sex, you won't get pregnant or get a sexually transmitted disease.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Lots of shoulds and shouldn'ts here, not to much understanding that yours is one opinion of many.

Well God said Don't. I'll take his opinion over yours.

 

[Root of Jesse]

So children should be a consequence of sex even if the people involved don't want them? Sounds awfully close to a punishment to me.

The proof is there. Children ARE the consequence of sex. Just because you think you have a way around it, that doesn't work too well, doesn't mean that children aren't the consequence of sex.

At least you realize that is just your guess on the matter rather than some sort of unquestionable conclusion.

Not my guess, God's word.