Abortion Discussion

[jayem]

Do you think that the government has the moral right to legalize what God has forbidden?

Absolutely. Your God forbids worshipping or putting any other god before him. Yet the Constitution makes it perfectly legal to worship any god, or no gods. In fact, that's a cornerstone principle upon which our society is built. Blasphemy is legal. It's not a crime to call your parents jackasses. Our laws are based on the idea that if those things are sins, then that's between the sinner and God--if there is a God. But it's no business of the government. And you should know that.

 

[AirPo]

To

Me it absolutely changes the argument. Sorry.

No problem, but consider this.

It doesn't matter what I call my son, infant, baby, toddler, adolesenct, teenager, or tween. He doesn't have the right to decide what bedtime is(granted, it does become a losing battle at some point). Now that he is 18, he does have the right. The point being that the subjective criteria is not the label.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Understand that they may never want to see that child again though. It could trigger bad emotions and memories.

Those bad emotions will worsen if the woman decides to commit a crime worse than rape: murder. She will add guilt to pain and sadness in the event she decides to kill the baby.

 

[Julie.S]

Those bad emotions will worsen if the woman decides to commit a crime worse than rape: murder. She will add guilt to pain and sadness in the event she decides to kill the baby.

I guess but she may already be in denial of her entire life though due to being raped you never know. I don't want anyone to abort I like adoption more and it saved my life. I am not going to hold anything against a woman who is already in so much pain though. I can try and put myself in their shoes.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

And if a difficult medical decision must be made, her health is the highest priority unless she chooses differently.

You mean her life or mental health? Mental depression of a woman faced with an unwanted pregnancy is a temporary condition while death is permanent and final

Those bad emotions will worsen if the woman decides to commit a crime worse than rape: murder. She will add guilt to pain and sadness in the event she decides to kill the baby.

 

[Archivist]

You mean her life or mental health? Mental depression of a woman faced with an unwanted pregnancy is a temporary condition while death is permanent and final

Those bad emotions will worsen if the woman decides to commit a crime worse than rape: murder. She will add guilt to pain and sadness in the event she decides to kill the baby.

First, abortion isn't mirder.

Second, why should the choice not remain with the pregnant woman? rather than a third party deciding what emotions she may or may not feel, why not let that up to her?

 

[Julie.S]

You mean her life or mental health? Mental depression of a woman faced with an unwanted pregnancy is a temporary condition while death is permanent and final

Those bad emotions will worsen if the woman decides to commit a crime worse than rape: murder. She will add guilt to pain and sadness in the event she decides to kill the baby.

Can I ask how you know what its like to go through this?

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Where'd that baby come from and why should a woman who was raped have to carry it to term?

Because the alternative is being guilty of murder. The Bible condemns punishing the children for the sins of the parents:


”The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son.” [Ezekiel 18:20

 

[Nic Samojluk]

OK, now you're talking legally. Those are crimes against persons. Legally, the unborn are not persons. The Constitution can be amended if you don't agree. And good luck with that.

There is a moral law written by God’s finger on tablets of stone, and human law voted by nine unelected Justices of the Court. Which law is superior? The Bible tells us that we must obey God rather than men:

New International Version
Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than human beings! [Acts 5:29]

 

[GoldenBoy89]

There is a moral law written by God’s finger on tablets of stone, and human law voted by nine unelected Justices of the Court. Which law is superior?

In the US? That's easy... The law from the "unelected justices."

 

[Subduction Zone]

You mean her life or mental health? Mental depression of a woman faced with an unwanted pregnancy is a temporary condition while death is permanent and final

Those bad emotions will worsen if the woman decides to commit a crime worse than rape: murder. She will add guilt to pain and sadness in the event she decides to kill the baby.

First you must show that a baby is a person to make this claim. It is not a claim that is strongly supported by the Bible, in fact the Bible can be used to argue against this claim.

 

[KingDavid403]

Because the alternative is being guilty of murder. The Bible condemns punishing the children for the sins of the parents:


”The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son.” [Ezekiel 18:20

Where in the Bible does it say abortion is murder? That's right nowhere. Furthermore, a rape victim has NOT sinned because she was raped.

 

[KingDavid403]

There is a moral law written by God’s finger on tablets of stone, and human law voted by nine unelected Justices of the Court. Which law is superior? The Bible tells us that we must obey God rather than men:

New International Version
Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than human beings! [Acts 5:29]

Exodus 21:21-23 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
22 "If men contend with each other, and a pregnant woman [interfering] is hurt so that she has a miscarriage, yet no further damage follows, [the one who hurt her] shall surely be punished with a fine [paid] to the woman’s husband, as much as the judges determine."

23 "But if any damage follows, then you shall give life for life."

It should be apparent from this to even you that the aborted fetus is not considered a living human being since the resulting punishment for the abortion is a fine; it is not classified by the bible as a capital offense or MURDER.

 

[St_Worm2]

In Exodus 21:22 it states that if a man causes a woman to have a miscarriage, he shall be fined; however, if the woman dies then he will be put to death. It should be apparent from this that the aborted fetus is not considered a living human being since the resulting punishment for the abortion is nothing more than a fine; it is not classified by the bible as a capital offense or MURDER. Murder in the Old Testament was clearly to be punished with death.

Hi KD, "intentional" murder was punishable by death in the OT, but Exodus 21:22-25 (where we see the first of the Bible's lex taliones laws BTW) shows us there is a case where life must be given for life, even though the homicide in this case was "unintentional". It's important to note (particularly for this discussion) that these verses insist that the same penalties/punishment(s) apply in the case of the mother and/or the unborn child, life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. So, rather than denying the full personhood of the unborn child (as you incorrectly believe), these verses show us the special protection afforded to both mother and child by God, also demonstrating that a baby in the womb is a person and must be afforded the same rights and privileges that he/she will have outside of the womb. So again, your understanding of these verses is wrong.

22 “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.
23 “But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. ~Exodus 21:22-25​

Yours and His,
David

 

[KingDavid403]

Hi KD, "intentional" murder was punishable by death in the OT, but Exodus 21:22-25 (where we see the first of the Bible's lex taliones laws BTW) shows us there is a case where life must be given for life, even though the homicide in this case was "unintentional". It's important to note (particularly for this discussion) that these verses insist that the same penalties/punishment(s) apply in the case of the mother and/or the unborn child, life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. So, rather than denying the full personhood of unborn child (as you incorrectly believe), these verses show us the special protection afforded to both mother and child by God, also demonstrating that a baby in the womb is a person and must be afforded the same rights and privileges that he/she will have outside of the womb. So again, your understanding of these verses is wrong.

22 “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.
23 “But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. ~Exodus 21:22-25​

Yours and His,
David

John Calvin was nothing but a narcissistic mass murderer and all in the name of Christ. It is interesting how someone whom claims abortion is murder quotes statements from a mass murderer and calls their faith (Calvinist) and follows the teachings of a mass murderer.

 

[KingDavid403]

You cannot say my understanding is wrong nor can you say your version of the Bible is correct. If you go back to the original Greek and Hebrew translations and study them; you will clearly see that the men striving together caused a miscarriage and that the fetus did not live. If you read my previous posts you will see that I am not pro-abortion. However, it is clear by science and the way God has revealed Himself to us through nature; that life does not begin at the moment of conception nor that an egg with a sperm cell in it is a person. That is nonsense to I and most others, as well over 50% of fertilized eggs are flushed out in a woman's menstrual cycle. Is this God flushing these supposed persons down the toilet or throwing them out in the trash? I do not think so, in fact, I know it is not so.
I do agree that abortion is wrong in most cases after the first trimester of pregnancy. However, It is not for you or I to decide if someone else chooses to end their pregnancy. If you feel it is wrong to have an abortion under all circumstances, Then make sure that if your wife or daughters are brutally raped by some slime-ball that they do not have an abortion. Or if their lives are in danger from their pregnancy. Just because you have a lack of faith in God's Sovereignty, does not mean everyone else has to also. Again there is not one word against abortion in God's Holy Word and abortion was just as common then when it was written as it is today. Both Old and New Testaments.
[Romans 14:1-14 NKJV] 1 "Receive one who is weak in the faith, [but] not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats [only] vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems [one] day above another; another esteems every day [alike]. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes [it] to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe [it]. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: "[As] I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in [our] brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that [there is] nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean."
Furthermore, you state: "that these verses insist that the same penalties/punishment(s) apply in the case of the mother and/or the unborn child, life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. So, rather than denying the full personhood of the unborn child (as you incorrectly believe), these verses show us the special protection afforded to both mother and child by God, also demonstrating that a baby in the womb is a person and must be afforded the same rights and privileges that he/she will have outside of the womb. So again, your understanding of these verses is wrong."
Show me one verse where it states that this is true. That's right you cannot because it is not in God's Holy Word. Maybe your newer altered version of the Bible states that; however, it is not in the original translations. It is nothing but something you, and others with the same beliefs as you made up.
God Bless,
David

 

[Subduction Zone]

Then of course there is the "test for an unfaithful wife" that describes a chemical abortion performed by a priest:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+5:11-29&version=NIV
And Levitcus 27 6 puts no value on children younger than one month, it does put a clear value on those older than that:

"If the person is from a month old up to five years old, the valuation shall be for a male five shekels of silver, and for a female the valuation shall be three shekels of silver."

One has to really strain to see the Bible condemning abortion in any way.

 

[St_Worm2]

You cannot say my understanding is wrong nor can you say your version of the Bible is correct.

Hi KD, the Amplified Bible is a "paraphrase", while the NASB is the most exacting of our English "translations", but neither the Amplified nor the NASB support your understanding of these verses.

If you go back to the original Greek and Hebrew translations and study them; you will clearly see that that the men striving caused a miscarriage and that the fetus did not live.

A premature birth is indicated, but the question of whether the baby lives or dies is not stated, either in the Amplified, the NASB/KJV, or in the Hebrew, only the fine (if both mother and child live and no injury occurs), or the penalty/punishment that will be imposed (if injury or death is the result to the mother and/or to the child).

Yours and His,
David

 

[KingDavid403]

Hi KD, "intentional" murder was punishable by death in the OT, but Exodus 21:22-25 (where we see the first of the Bible's lex taliones laws BTW) shows us there is a case where life must be given for life, even though the homicide in this case was "unintentional". It's important to note (particularly for this discussion) that these verses insist that the same penalties/punishment(s) apply in the case of the mother and/or the unborn child, life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. So, rather than denying the full personhood of the unborn child (as you incorrectly believe), these verses show us the special protection afforded to both mother and child by God, also demonstrating that a baby in the womb is a person and must be afforded the same rights and privileges that he/she will have outside of the womb. So again, your understanding of these verses is wrong.

22 “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.
23 “But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. ~Exodus 21:22-25​

Yours and His,
David

Hi KD, the Amplified Bible is a "paraphrase", while the NASB is the most exacting of our English "translations", but neither the Amplified nor the NASB support your understanding of these verses.



A premature birth is indicated, but the question of whether the baby lives or dies is not stated, either in the Amplified, the NASB/KJV, or in the Hebrew, only the fine (if both mother and child live and no injury occurs), or the penalty/punishment that will be imposed if injury or death is the result, to the mother and/or to the child.

Yours and His,
David

Sorry, you are incorrect. Nor can you tell me something that is clearly not in God's Word. Again, there is nothing that states the penalty/punishment is the same for harming the live mother as it is for causing the miscarriage of the unborn fetus. It has been clearly understood for thousands of years by the Jews that it was a miscarriage where the fetus did not live. Why do you think Israel has more liberal laws with abortion than even the United States?
You, I, and everyone else, were created by God long before our souls and spirits were placed in any womb by Him. The body is nothing but a tent for the soul. We know by science that a fetus has no brain activity until close to 5 months of pregnancy. Therefore, it has no soul or spirit. Are you trying to say that all stillborn were persons?
We know by God's Holy Word that our life in our bodies begins at birth when we are born. Definition of the word "Born": "Brought into existence by the process of birth!"

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hi KD, the Amplified Bible is a "paraphrase", while the NASB is the most exacting of our English "translations", but neither the Amplified nor the NASB support your understanding of these verses.



A premature birth is indicated, but the question of whether the baby lives or dies is not stated, either in the Amplified, the NASB/KJV, or in the Hebrew, only the fine (if both mother and child live and no injury occurs), or the penalty/punishment that will be imposed if injury or death occur, to the mother and/or to the child.

Yours and His,
David

No, the only reason that some writers claim that a premature birth is indicated is because of their circular reasoning. They assume that the Bible is anti-abortion so they reinterpret that verse the only way that they can. And a premature birth in those days was an almost guaranteed death sentence for the baby. For you to claim that the verse needs to be far more specific.