Abortion Discussion

[Nic Samojluk]

Your interpretation of the Bible is not sound information.

I thought that most atheists were pro-life!

 

[Julie.S]

Yes, I do. Do you think that the government has the moral right to legalize what God has forbidden?

Well considering that not everyone shares the same religious views it's a very rocky road. Not every believes in God.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

All illrelevant to the issue.

Do you believe that stealing a car is a worse moral offense than stealing one’s life?

 

[Nic Samojluk]

You don't get to vote on what other people do with their own bodies.

Their own bodies? This is a Christian forum, and the Bible teaches that we do not own our bodies. Our body belong to the one who created it. He owns the copyright to thee human body.

New Living Translation
"Don't you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself" [1 Corinthians 6:19]

 

[Julie.S]

Their own bodies? This is a Christian forum, and the Bible teaches that we do not own our bodies. Our body belong to the one who created it. He owns the copyright to thee human body.

New Living Translation
"Don't you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself" [1 Corinthians 6:19]

Yes this is a Christian forum but understand that not everyone is or believes the same.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Your forgetting that the Bible doesn't apply, and that she does own her own body.

Wow! Do you mean I cannot use the Bible? Do you realize that you are on sacred ground? This is a “Christian forum! Do you realize that? You are inside a Christian church!

Do you intend to chase me out of a Christian organization? If I set my foot inside your house, I will show proper respect for your authority. I will not dare to rearrange the furniture inside your house!

 

[Nic Samojluk]

It's not the doctor's body so why should he/she have anything to do with the killing of the unborn?

Excellent response! The Bible says:

New International Version
”The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.” [John 10:10]

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Not excellent at all. It's actually really stupid. We do care about tooth extractions. That's why have things called dentists, toohpaste, and floss.

Tooth extraction is a painful experience. If a dentist extracts a healthy tooth he should loose his license. When a physicians kills a healthy unborn baby, he should go to jail instead of being rewarded with the freedom to profit from murder.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

That's as stupid as implying that people should remove brain tumors by themselves.

An unborn baby is not a tumor! You should rather compare the abortionist to a tumor!

 

[Nic Samojluk]

According to logic, and the law.

A law that permits the killing of innocent human beings is a travesty of justice. The law should punish the guilty—not the innocent! This is so simple a young child can understand.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

I do not believe the same as you do. God gave me my body, I believe my body belongs to me.

Sorry to disagree! This is a Christian forum, and the Bible is the moral authority for Christians.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

No, it can't. I will still be forced to carry the pregnancy. This is a violation of my body.

Two wrong do not correct the first one. Rape is a crime. You do not un-rape a woman by murdering an innocent victim. If society does not take the life of the rapist, is it right to punish the innocent baby for the crime of the father?

 

[KitKatMatt]

Two wrong do not correct the first one. Rape is a crime. You do not un-rape a woman by murdering an innocent victim. If society does not take the life of the rapist, is it right to punish the innocent baby for the crime of the father?

I already told you why I believe the way I do, which is because I have imagined myself in the place of a woman who had conceived via rape.

You cannot change my mind. I am not attempting to change your mind either, everything I said was my own personal belief.

 

[KitKatMatt]

Sorry to disagree! This is a Christian forum, and the Bible is the moral authority for Christians.

You are being extremely disrespectful to me, so I'm going to ignore you now.

 

[Archivist]

Yes, I do. Do you think that the government has the moral right to legalize what God has forbidden?

This is off topic, buit your post made me think of something: What if we would reverse what you said. Does the government have the right to forbid that which God has legalized? For example, is it wrong for the government to forbid the killing of witches?

Sorry...please return to the previously scheduled topic. If anyone would want to discuss this I would be happy to start a thread so we do not derail this one.

 

[AirPo]

yes, name calling on your part sure did put me in my place

Name calling implies a person, which I was not refering to. I was discussing a point and giving it the value it so well deserved.

 

[AirPo]

you must like that word stupid There is no moral outrage regarding brain surgery so there's that.

I wasn't commenting on moral outrage, rather the quality of the argument being made. Stupid is the best I could come up with.

 

[stevenfrancis]

Abortion is a symptom of a culture which has now fully embraced, and is quite comfortable with sexual immorality. It is the worst symptom because it's end is the destruction of a human being. Whether this is "murder" or not is a quibble. It is morally reprehensible. We seem to all focus on the "law". What our particular society will permit and sanction. We are using the whims of a morally decaying culture as the true north on our compass instead of the natural law which we all know on some level is a part of our make up. When we participate in evil long enough, it becomes easy to keep moving the bar. Mankind over the last 200 years has lost their grip on two fundamental core axioms. Right is always right, and wrong is always wrong. They are unchangeable. This is not to say that individual adjustments shouldn't be made in areas which come across as gray, versus black and white. But black and white must always be black and white in order to know what we are adjusting away from or to in any given individual instance. This doesn't just apply to abortion.

If a human life begins at conception, (and biology, philosophy, and theology all seem to bear this out), then to end that human life because of age is just simply wrong. We can throw around "but if...." and "supposing that....." all day long, and it doesn't move the needle. One human being does not have the natural, moral, or ethical right to determine that another human being doesn't get to live. We know this. Those who say they don't know this are operating under a cloud of delusion which is most likely political or expedient or both. And it is this delusion that leads to the tyranny and destructive cultures which emerged in the twentieth century.

The OP mentioned that part of the "solution" is more access to birth control. I've heard this before. It's a real stumper for me. Just how much more ubiquitous could birth control be? I work as a pharmacy technican. Anyone can get it. Anywhere. Any time. Usually for free, or close to it, and at a younger and younger age all the time. But that's a red herring anyway. I submit that "the pill" is at the very core of the destruction of human morality which has led us to the bleak situation we find ourselves in today. In the early 60's, when it became widely available, it quite easy to look at history and statistics and see that this was impetus for the separation in the western mind of the marital act from marriage. You can pretty easily trace and watch the trajectory from the early to mid-60's right up to today, throughout western culture as the rates of abortion, adultery, fornication, pornography, pedophelia, incest, rape, homosexuality, human trafficking, prostitution, veneral disease, divorce, "shacking up" etc. just exploded with the widespread use of "contraception". Abortion is even used AS contraception by the lazy. And now we've developed chemical abortion that you can walk right into your local drug store, without a prescription, and buy right next to the condoms.

I'm not even going to pretend to know the answer. The cynical side of me believes we've passed the tipping point. But as a Christian, I am still a person of hope, and have an optimist welling up inside me as well that says common sense will somehow prevail in the end. That we are dealing with a problem of education more than anything else. Education and the wrongful association of matters regarding human life with modern politics. This is not a government issue. It is not a political issue. It is morality. Plain and simple. Morality is a product of unchangeable truths. Truth is truth. It's not something else. It's not silly putty. It is, to borrow from religion "written in our hearts". I'm sure that the atheists have a different term for it, but they would also agree that there are unchangeable truths, and that the taking of human life is one we all know to be innately wrong. The laws of virtually every society and culture that man has built since he began include this. We can argue about capital punishment and such, but the taking of innocent life is pretty firm. All countries. All cultures have laws against killing the innocent.

The only question then, is a human being created at conception? If so, we can't kill him/her. If not, then there is nothing BEING killed, and no moral difficulty. But all evidence seems to point a human being existing upon conception. There is no evidence in biology that anything else has been produced when a human being is conceived. It will always be a human being, and if nurtured and not interfered with, (just as we do once a child is born), that even a human zygote will mature, be born, attain infancy, childhood, adolescence, adulthood, maturity, old age, and will then die naturally. Zygote, embryo, fetus, baby, youngster, teen, adult, elderly are all just developmental steps of human life. There should be no difference morally in ending this cycle at the stage of zygote than to end the life of a teen or an adult, or an elderly person.

Dr. Suess nailed it in Horton hears a who. "A person's and person.....no matter how small".

my 2 cents, without getting religious.

Peace,

Steve

 

[Julie.S]

I already told you why I believe the way I do, which is because I have imagined myself in the place of a woman who had conceived via rape.

You cannot change my mind. I am not attempting to change your mind either, everything I said was my own personal belief.

I understand your position and I support you so far. I want the best for you and everyone.

 

[AirPo]

Lets get the facts right Archivist, #1 Abortion is Murder, are you that blind that you cannot see that a unborn child in the 3 trimester is a living and breathing Human being? the only diffirence from a child that has been delivered is that it is still atached to it's umbilical cord..they only reason why they are being murdered by so-called doctors is because of RoevWade and the law allows abortion...excuse my lack of medical terms, that is my only ignorance..thank you.

Not a very good start to posit to get the facts right and then get the facts wrong.