Abortion Discussion

[PapaZoom]

Incorrect. sometimes several sperm enter an egg. Thus, identical twins, triplets, etc. etc.

That's true. I've even heard of cases where there were twins from two different fathers. I haven't verified that however.

 

[PapaZoom]

Yes, embryo, zygote, fetus, but not human person , or a live baby. It is not a person until it is born. The Bible tells us so.

where in the Bible does it say that?

 

[PapaZoom]

heteropaternal superfecundation
Heteropaternal Superfecundation - Twins with Different Fathers
http://multiples.about.com/od/funfacts/a/Heteropaternal.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-jersey-twins-with-two-different-fathers

 

[PapaZoom]

Um, no. Identical twins occur when an egg splits after fertilization by one sperm. That is why they have identical DNA. Fraternal twins and most higher numbers occur when multiple eggs are released during ovulation. We see a lot more of that today due to the use of fertility drugs.

That's right. Thanks for the correction.

 

[KingDavid403]

Um, no. Identical twins occur when an egg splits after fertilization by one sperm. That is why they have identical DNA. Fraternal twins and most higher numbers occur when multiple eggs are released during ovulation. We see a lot more of that today due to the use of fertility drugs.

You may be correct. I do know about Fraternal twins as I have two uncles born as Fraternal twins who look nothing alike.
Edit: I just Googled it and found that it does sometimes happen where two sperm enter a single egg and form twins. However, it is extremely rare.

Types of Twins

Fraternal Twins
With fraternal twins, the most common type, the mother contributes two eggs that each are fertilized in the womb by two different sperm cells from the father. They are genetically as similar as any ordinary siblings.

Identical Twins
With identical twins, one egg from the mother is fertilized by one sperm from the father, and then very early in development the embryo splits and two fetuses grow. These twins are very similar genetically.

Semi Identical Twins
The 'semi-identical' twins are the result of two sperm cells fusing with a single egg, before becoming two embryos. An embryo created this way doesn't usually survive, but a few cases are known.

New Semi Identical Twins
These twins are also chimaras, meaning that their cells are not genetically uniform. Each sperm has contributed genes to each child -- a very rare and previously unreported way for twins to come about.

Normally, chimeras form essentially when two separate fertilized eggs that would normally make fraternal twins fuse early in development and make a single baby that ends up with a mix of tissues from each egg. Most of the time it goes totally unnoticed, and only shows up either if the two eggs have different genetic genders and the baby ends up with a mix of male and female gonads, or if it happens to be picked up on a genetic test that's done for other reasons (ex. paternity tests).

New type of Semi Identical Twins ?

New Semi Identical Twins
Researchers have discovered a pair of twins who are identical through their mother's side, but share only half their genes on their father's side.

Such twins are probably very rare. Their existence and discovery relies on three unusual, and possibly unlinked, events: first, that an egg fertilized by two sperm develops into a viable embryo; second, that this embryo splits to form twins; and third, that the children come to the attention of science.

With these babies, they at some point had two sets of DNA that could potentially have formed separate semi-identical twins just like what happens with fraternal twins, except that they either never completely separated, or else separated and then got mixed together and, they ended up making two babies that both have both types of cells.

The new case came to light because one of the twins had an abnormality in sexual development -- ambiguous genitalia -- and was considered a hermaphrodite with both ovarian and testicular tissue.

This child is being raised as a girl. The other twin is a boy. The 'semi-identical' twins were evaluated at a U.S. hospital initially a few years ago.The twins were conceived completely naturally, noting that in vitro fertilization or infertility treatments were not involved.

Dr Melissa Parisi, a paediatrics professor at the University of Washington in Seattle and co-author of the research, said, "I can tell you that in my last contact with the family, the twins were doing very well - healthy, growing well, developing normally".

"Their similarity is somewhere between identical and fraternal twins," said Vivienne Souter, lead author of the study, reported online by news@nature.com, the online site of the science journal Nature.

The study initially appeared in the Journal of Human Genetics, published in Britain, researchers said the new 'semi-identical' twins are more genetically similar than fraternal twins, but less similar than identical twins. Observation suggests the existence of other similar twins that have not yet been, and may never be, identified.
"It's extremely unlikely that we will ever see another case." said Charles Boklage, an expert on twinning at Eastern Carolina University in North Carolina.
This phenomenon has been related to 'vanishing twin' phenomenon, where an embryo or fetus dies in the womb and disintregrates, often leaving no trace, but there can be signs on the placenta. The sole survivor of a twin pregnancy may carry the genetic code of his or her twin in blood or other tissues.

Althea Hayton, Project Director, wombtwin.com

In this case there may have been a vanishing triplet, a female, whose blood and stem cells carried in the blood, mixed with her identical twin brothers' blood before she died and faded away.

 

[KingDavid403]

where in the Bible does it say that?

[Isiah 9:6 NKJV] "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
It says nowhere in the Bible anything about conception being a person. They did use to say that pregnant women were with child; however, this was just their way of saying a woman was pregnant and expecting a child.

 

[KingDavid403]

Sperm cells are alive. So are eggs, and fertilized eggs.

I agree with the rest of your points, though.

Yes, they are alive; however, they are not persons or a child.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

Those who say, "If you're a Christian, you have to be against abortion, and therefore you must vote republican," are simply reciting talking points from false teachers.

That's a bit of a strawman if I ever saw one. The bible may not explicitly state "abortion is wrong" but there are a lot of things it's less than explicit about that in nonetheless makes perfectly clear. One thing it does state explicitly, is that we are children of God, created by Him and that He knows and plans for our lives long before we are ever conceived much less born. The Word of God makes it abundantly clear that life begins before birth and that life is precious.

While I will never play another's judge and jury (that's God's prerogative not mine) I am also not going to sit idlly by while millions of innocents are slaughtered by people who for one reason or another don't know any better, nor while my own self-proclaimed sisters and brothers in Christ claim that there's nothing wrong with it. To those who claim Christianity while being pro-choice I invite you to take a good, long, open-minded look at the scriptures and then re-examine the issue.

Also, I despise the Republican Party, the way they oppose the very things that could at least reduce the numbers of abortions happening is absolutely inexcusable.

Here's some scriptures the pro-choice people here ought to take a look at:

"For You are He who drew me from the womb, My hope from my mother's breasts, I was cast upon You from the womb, from my mother's womb You have been my God." Psalm 22:10-11

"Behold, children are the Lord's inheritance; the fruit of the womb is His reward." Psalm 127:3

"For You possess my heart, O Lord; You took hold of me from my mother's womb. I will give thanks to You. For I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Your works and my soul knows this very well. My bone You made in secret was not hidden from you. Your eyes saw me when I was unformed, for all shall be written in your book; they shall be formed day by day when as of yet there were none among them." Psalm 139:13-16

"Listen to Me O house of Jacob and all the remnant of Israel, those who were taken from the womb and instructed in childhood. Even to your old age I Am and even to your gray hairs I Am. I bear you, I made you and will forgive you. I will take you up and save you." Isaiah 46:3-4

"Will a woman forget her child so as not to have mercy on the offspring of her womb?" Isaiah 49:15

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you and before you were born I sanctified you. I established you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"But Jesus, turning to them, said: 'Daughters of Jerusalem do not weep for Me but weep for yourselves and for your children. For indeed the days are coming in which they will say: 'Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore and breasts which have never nursed'." Luke 23:28-29

 

[OrthodoxForever]

Yes, they are alive; however, they are not persons or a child.

Genetically speaking a fertilized egg is no different from you, in fact while this may surprise you you were one once, as was I. If you were born after '73 you are only here because at a point where the continuation of your existence depended on someone else's opinion you were fortunate enough to have your life in the hands of someone who chose not to kill you. Think about that for a second.

 

[Hank77]

Their own bodies? This is a Christian forum, and the Bible teaches that we do not own our bodies. Our body belong to the one who created it. He owns the copyright to thee human body.

New Living Translation
"Don't you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself" [1 Corinthians 6:19]

God gives the Holy Spirit to those who do not believe in Him? The Holy Spirit dwells in the body and spirit of all people?
The Holy Spirit is dwelling in the rapists body and spirit? He/she is the temple of the Holy Spirit?

 

[St_Worm2]

It says nowhere in the Bible anything about conception being a person. They did use to say that pregnant women were with child; however, this was just their way of saying a woman was pregnant and expecting a child.

Hi David, yes, I don't believe it ever uses those exact words, but there are many, many indicators. For instance, Luke 1:15 teaches us that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while he was still in his mother Elizabeth's womb.

And your namesake has this to say about his conception.

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." ~Psalm 51:5​

Psalms 139 comes quickly to mind as well, but that's probably because it was just mentioned by our thread author a couple of posts up. It certainly shows us the close attention and care God takes in bringing each new life into this world

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - welcome back I too have taken a couple of sabbaticals over the years from here, only to find my way back eventually.

 

[Armoured]

What is the alternative? The alternative is murder. Do you believe that killing an innocent baby is a lesser crime than rape? Adding a worse crime to rape is not the right remedy.

Jesus said that if someone is forced to carry a load for a mile, he should offer to carry said load for two miles. Six months of inconvenience is not comparable to the total deprivation of life. Pregnancy is a temporary condition; abortion is final and irreversible.

Except it's not a "baby" by any meaningful definition.

 

[Hank77]

Because the alternative is being guilty of murder. The Bible condemns punishing the children for the sins of the parents:


”The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son.” [Ezekiel 18:20

This scripture is talking about GOD not holding the sins of the father against the son and visa versa.
It has nothing to do with us punishing children at all and I suspect that you know this.

Do you believe that we are body, soul, and spirit as Paul says in Thessalonians? If so does a person who is a dispermic chimera have a body with two souls and two spirits? Or does God take one back when the two zygotes fuse?

 

[KingDavid403]

Hi David, yes, I don't believe it ever uses those exact words, but there are many, many indicators. For instance, Luke 1:15 teaches us that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while he was still in his mother Elizabeth's womb.

And your namesake has this to say about his conception.

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." ~Psalm 51:5​

Psalms 139 comes quickly to mind as well, but that's probably because it was just mentioned by our thread author a couple of posts up. It certainly shows us the close attention and care God takes in bringing each new life into this world

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - welcome back I too have taken a couple of sabbaticals over the years from here, only to find my way back eventually.

John the Baptist was a great Prophet filled with God's Holy Spirit in the womb in the last trimester of pregnancy. He was also sent forth by God as the greatest man ever born of woman to prepare the way for Jesus. As I said; I feel most abortions are wrong after the first trimester of pregnancy except in rare cases such as rape or extreme medical conditions. There are no indicators in God's Holy word that says life begins at the moment of conception. If that was the case then over 50% of fertilized eggs would not be flushed out by a woman's menstrual cycle. That is a great indicator that life does NOT begin at the moment of conception and that an egg with a sperm cell in it is not a person.

God Bless,
David

 

[KingDavid403]

Genetically speaking a fertilized egg is no different from you, in fact while this may surprise you you were one once, as was I. If you were born after '73 you are only here because at a point where the continuation of your existence depended on someone else's opinion you were fortunate enough to have your life in the hands of someone who chose not to kill you. Think about that for a second.

No you think about it for a second. I am alive and have a soul and spirit. A fertilized egg has none nor is it alive with a life. You, I, and everyone else, are alive because God created us. Do you actually think someone can destroy something that God created long before we were even in the womb? Your lack of faith in God's Sovereignty is clearly showing. God is in control, not you, I, or some mother that chooses to end a pregnancy.
God Bless,
David

 

[KCfromNC]

Rape is a horrible crime. Abortion is a worse crime than rape.

Others disagree on the relative severity of these actions. The cool thing is they're not forcing their views on you by demanding you have an abortion. Perhaps you could be so kind and return the favor so that they can make their own choices in this matter.

 

[Archivist]

Others disagree. The cool thing is they're not forcing their views on you by demanding you have an abortion. Perhaps you could be so kind and return the favor so that they can make their own choices in this matter.

Correct. The choice has to remain with the pregnant woman

A question: if we make abortion illegal who gets punished for the abortion? The doctor who performed it? The pregnant woman who procured it? Both?

 

[KingDavid403]

That's a bit of a strawman if I ever saw one. The bible may not explicitly state "abortion is wrong" but there are a lot of things it's less than explicit about that in nonetheless makes perfectly clear. One thing it does state explicitly, is that we are children of God, created by Him and that He knows and plans for our lives long before we are ever conceived much less born. The Word of God makes it abundantly clear that life begins before birth and that life is precious.

While I will never play another's judge and jury (that's God's prerogative not mine) I am also not going to sit idlly by while millions of innocents are slaughtered by people who for one reason or another don't know any better, nor while my own self-proclaimed sisters and brothers in Christ claim that there's nothing wrong with it. To those who claim Christianity while being pro-choice I invite you to take a good, long, open-minded look at the scriptures and then re-examine the issue.

Also, I despise the Republican Party, the way they oppose the very things that could at least reduce the numbers of abortions happening is absolutely inexcusable.

Here's some scriptures the pro-choice people here ought to take a look at:

"For You are He who drew me from the womb, My hope from my mother's breasts, I was cast upon You from the womb, from my mother's womb You have been my God." Psalm 22:10-11

"Behold, children are the Lord's inheritance; the fruit of the womb is His reward." Psalm 127:3

"For You possess my heart, O Lord; You took hold of me from my mother's womb. I will give thanks to You. For I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Your works and my soul knows this very well. My bone You made in secret was not hidden from you. Your eyes saw me when I was unformed, for all shall be written in your book; they shall be formed day by day when as of yet there were none among them." Psalm 139:13-16

"Listen to Me O house of Jacob and all the remnant of Israel, those who were taken from the womb and instructed in childhood. Even to your old age I Am and even to your gray hairs I Am. I bear you, I made you and will forgive you. I will take you up and save you." Isaiah 46:3-4

"Will a woman forget her child so as not to have mercy on the offspring of her womb?" Isaiah 49:15

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you and before you were born I sanctified you. I established you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"But Jesus, turning to them, said: 'Daughters of Jerusalem do not weep for Me but weep for yourselves and for your children. For indeed the days are coming in which they will say: 'Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore and breasts which have never nursed'." Luke 23:28-29

Jeremiah was a great Prophet specially sent forth by God to Israel. Notice how God says "before you were in the womb I knew you." Key word is "Before."
King David was the physical ancestor of the human side of Jesus. King David and two of his mighty men slayed 1000 men in a sword fight in one night. That makes Bruce Lee look like a punk. David knew he was specially made by God and he was praising God for that.
The rest of your scriptures state how God took them forth out of their mothers womb and gave them life. They clearly contradict your stance.
I could care a less if you sit by or not. Abortion is legal in 80% of the world so you better get to work. May I suggest you start your battle against the China government where they force women to have abortions and where they have the highest abortion rate in the world by several hundred percent. Starting your battle against abortion by fighting against recent rape victims seems extremely unholy and anti-Christ like to I and most in the world. Get some guts if you are going into battle.
Abortion has been around since the beginning of time. It was just as common in the Old Testament days and the days of Jesus and the Apostles, yet not one word mentioned in the Bible by any of them in God's Holy Word.
Furthermore, I never said that I thought there was nothing wrong with abortion. I am saying that there are certain cases where it is Okay with God. If a rape victim chooses to end a pregnancy from their rape, that is none of your, or anyone elses business in any way, shape, or form. Wake up. Jesus saves, you, or any other self-righteous numb skull do not. mind your own business in rape victims lives.
[Genesis 38:24 NKJV] 24 And it came to pass, about three months after, that Judah was told, saying, "Tamar your daughter-in-law has played the harlot; furthermore she [is] with child by harlotry." So Judah said, "Bring her out and let her be burned!"
Notice Judah had no concern for the innocent little fetus in Tamar's womb. King David is from the line of Judah. Jesus is "The Lion of Judah." Hello?
God Bless,
David

 

[PapaZoom]

Correct. The choice has to remain with the pregnant woman

A question: if we make abortion illegal who gets punished for the abortion? The doctor who performed it? The pregnant woman who procured it? Both?

If it's deemed murder....then what would naturally follow? Certainly the doctor. Murder in the first degree. The woman? Some lesser charge probably. And any attending nurse too.

 

[AirPo]

If it's deemed murder....then what would naturally follow? Certainly the doctor. Murder in the first degree. The woman? Some lesser charge probably. And any attending nurse too.

But it's not deemed murder. So this wishful thinking is just a moot point.