Abortion Discussion

Nic Samojluk · Mar 11, 2016

AirPo said:
This is not your house, it's not a church.

According to St. Paul even our own bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit. I conclude that a forum sponsored by Christians is figuratively a temple of the Lord.

Dave-W · Mar 11, 2016

ToddNotTodd said:
Technically, it's not a baby.

Is there a technical definition for "baby?"
If so, where does it fit in with infant, toddler, etc.?

jayem · Mar 11, 2016

PapaZoom said:
If it's deemed murder....then what would naturally follow? Certainly the doctor. Murder in the first degree. The woman? Some lesser charge probably. And any attending nurse too.

Why would the pregnant woman face a lesser charge? If abortion is murder, then it's murder for hire. And she hires the murderer. In all other cases of contract killing, the person who hires the killer is prosecuted to the same degree as the hit man. And many times, actually gets a stiffer sentence. Why would this be different?

KingDavid403 · Mar 11, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
Here is how "life" is defined:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fetu.htm

If you use those 4 criteria as defining "alive," can you STILL say the fetus (or go all the way back to the zygote) is NOT alive?

That may be your definition of life; however, it is not God's definition of a person.

Dave-W · Mar 11, 2016

KingDavid403 said:
That may be your definition of life;

It is not "my" definition. It is one science uses. If you follow the link you will find the source. (NASA I believe)

however, it is not God's definition of a person.

OK - give me biblical chapter and verse to show what HIS definition actually is.

Nic Samojluk · Mar 11, 2016

AirPo said:
It's not murder if it is legal. It is legal. Therefore it's not murder.

Humanly speaking, the killing of an innocent baby is legal, but there a higher law set up by the Creator, and under said moral law it is illegal. There was a time when killing a slave was legal, until President Lincoln change said inhuman and cruel law.

Today it is legal to dismember and poison an innocent living baby, but tomorrow society may do away with this genocide. If one day erring humans decided that raping a woman is legal, would you defend the legality of such a crime?

If ISIS succeeds in imposing their morals on the entire world, as they would like to, rape would become legal overnight. It is legal right now in their country.

Nic Samojluk · Mar 11, 2016

AirPo said:
An unborn baby isn't a baby either.

Do you realize what you are in fact saying. You are saying that “An unborn baby isn't a baby .” How can you assert that a baby is not a baby?

KCfromNC · Mar 11, 2016

Nic Samojluk said:
Humanly speaking, the killing of an innocent baby is legal, but there a higher law set up by the Creator, and under said moral law it is illegal.

If that creator really cared they're welcome to let us know. So far, all we have is humans "humanly speaking" about it as if they know, and yet they're telling us vastly different things. That's no way to run a railroad.

KingDavid403 · Mar 11, 2016

St_Worm2 said:
Hi KD, I see you are pretty new here so I thought I should tell you that while you are welcome/expected to strenuously defend your POV, what you are not allowed to do is suggest, even in the form of a subtle ad hominem, that those who claim to be Christians here are anything else, even if their opinion differs greatly from yours. Nic is 7th Day, and perhaps you don't consider them Christians, but that's an opinion you'll need to keep to yourself when posting at CF.

That said, do you really believe it's wrong to think that the individual growing in the womb of a rape victim, who is absolutely innocent of wrongdoing, has no rights whatsoever If life is chosen instead of abortion, at least you don't have one violent crime, rape, being compounded by another violent crime, murder.

Choosing to preserve the life of an innocent baby is never a statement that comes from the pit of Hell

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - our opinions of abortion aside, let me also say, WELCOME TO CF .. (which I should have said to you in my first, sorry about that!)

St_Worm2 said:
Hi KD, I see you are pretty new here so I thought I should tell you that while you are welcome/expected to strenuously defend your POV, what you are not allowed to do is suggest, even in the form of a subtle ad hominem, that those who claim to be Christians here are anything else, even if their opinion differs
greatly from yours. Nic is 7th Day, and perhaps you don't consider them Christians, but that's an opinion you'll need to keep
to yourself when posting at CF.

That said, do you really believe it's wrong to think that the individual growing in the womb of a rape victim, who is absolutely innocent of wrongdoing, has no rights whatsoever If life is chosen instead of abortion, at least you don't have one violent crime, rape, being compounded by another violent crime, murder.

Choosing to preserve the life of an innocent baby is never a statement that comes from the pit of Hell

Yours and His,
David

p.s. - our opinions of abortion aside, let me also say, WELCOME TO CF .. (which I should have said to you in my first, sorry about that!)

Choosing to preserve the life of an innocent baby is never a statement that comes from the pit of Hell :preach:

It is not a baby or an individual, It is an egg with a sperm cell in it from a rapist. Nothing more and nothing less. No matter how much you lie to yourself and others you can never change that fact. Second; when you want to promote prolonging the suffering of a rape victims who has been brutally raped, then, it is a statement from the pits of hell. I am glad to inform you of this. Also, it is not murder as it is not alive or a person. It is an egg with a sperm cell in it from a rapist. Next.
God Bless,
David

KCfromNC · Mar 11, 2016

Nic Samojluk said:
Do you realize what you are in fact saying. You are saying that “An unborn baby isn't a baby .”

The fact you have to attach various adjectives to terms means that there's obviously a distinction between them and the normal, non-propaganda use of the words.

KingDavid403 · Mar 11, 2016

Nic Samojluk said:
Do you realize what you are in fact saying. You are saying that “An unborn baby isn't a baby .” How can you assert that a baby is not a baby?

How can you assert that an egg with a sperm cell in it is a baby? That's right you can't.

Nic Samojluk · Mar 11, 2016

AirPo said:
Since abortion is legal, there is no guilty party to be punished.

No guilty party? We were talking about rape! Rape is illegal in this country. This means that society should punish the rapist and not the innocent baby.

Likewise, in the case of abortion, the one killing the baby is the abortionist. The abortionist is guilty of murder, since murder is defined as the killing of an innocent human being.

KingDavid403 · Mar 11, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
It is not "my" definition. It is one science uses. If you follow the link you will find the source. (NASA I believe)

OK - give me biblical chapter and verse to show what HIS definition actually is.

No, you give me a biblical chapter and verse to show where your definition of life as a person begins and where it is in God's Holy Word. I am not following a link. If you cannot show us all here where your definition of life as a person begins in God's eyes and is in the Bible, then it holds no validity, to I anyway.

Nic Samojluk · Mar 11, 2016

AirPo said:
Easy for a man to say.]

It's not easy, but men should say it, because nine Justices of the U.S. Court--all males--decided to legalize the murder of a large segment of the human race: the unborn.

This is a worse genocide than the one that took place under Hitler. He killed five million, but we killed teen times this number in the U.S. alone.

KingDavid403 · Mar 11, 2016

Nic Samojluk said:
No guilty party? We were talking about rape! Rape is illegal in this country. This means that society should punish the rapist and not the innocent baby.

Likewise, in the case of abortion, the one killing the baby is the abortionist. The abortionist is guilty of murder, since murder is defined as the killing of an innocent human being.

Sorry, it is not murder as it is not a baby.

PapaZoom · Mar 11, 2016

jayem said:
Why would the pregnant woman face a lesser charge? If abortion is murder, then it's murder for hire. And she hires the murderer. In all other cases of contract killing, the person who hires the killer is prosecuted to the same degree as the hit man. And many times, actually gets a stiffer sentence. Why would this be different?

I'm just guessing that that's what would actually happen if it were illegal. I'm guessing that the law makers would make a lesser charge for the woman although I could be wrong. I'm guessing that they'd reason that charging the doctor with first degree murder would be sufficient to stop the practice at least with a medical professional. And because of the nature of the argument, and where we are today, people would resist charging the mother with the more serious crime. It's a big IF anyway and not likely to every happen (abortion being illegal).

KCfromNC · Mar 11, 2016

PapaZoom said:
I'm just guessing that that's what would actually happen if it were illegal.

Instead of guessing you could just look at the reality of laws pre Roe v Wade. For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_abortion_statutes_(1961). Only problem there is that in fact it wasn't treated nearly as seriously as actual murder which gets in the way of some of the talking points used here.

ToddNotTodd · Mar 11, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
Is there a technical definition for "baby?"
If so, where does it fit in with infant, toddler, etc.?

There's a dictionary definition of baby...

ba·by
ˈbābē/
noun

1.
a very young child, especially one newly or recently born.
"his wife's just had a baby"
synonyms: infant, newborn, child, tot, little one; More

redleghunter · Mar 11, 2016

Nic Samojluk · Mar 11, 2016

KingDavid403 said:
You cannot murder a fetus, as it is not alive anymore than one of my sperm cells or an egg in a woman's uterus.

I disagree! The sperm has no identity different from the male. The fetus—Latin for unborn baby—on the other hand has an identity that differs from any other human being in the entire world. It possesses it own unique DNA.

Besides, by the time most abortions are performed, the unborn has a heartbeat, it has hands, feet, and other features of a human being. The baby must be killed for it to cease to exist. Killing an innocent human being is murder according to my dictionary.

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