Abortion Discussion

[Dave-W]

Do you believe that we are body, soul, and spirit as Paul says in Thessalonians?

Yes

If so does a person who is a dispermic chimera have a body with two souls and two spirits?

That is a very good question; one that I have asked as well. There is no evidence in scripture one way or the other, but I suspect that it is entirely possible that they have 2 souls and spirits.

Or does God take one back when the two zygotes fuse?

Why would HE do that? I see not even a hint of such a thing going on.

 

[KingDavid403]

But it's not deemed murder. So this wishful thinking is just a moot point.

Amen!

 

[Nic Samojluk]

This is off topic

Off topic? The topic is abortion! How was my comment off topic?

 

[Nic Samojluk]

The government is not bound by your interpretation of what God has forbidden.

One of God’s commandments forbids murder. My dictionary defines murder as the killing of an innocent human being. The unborn has all the characteristics of a human being. I conclude that killing the unborn is a violation of God’s moral law. Where id I go wrong?

Why do we have a government? What is the governments main duty? Isn't it to protect the life and property of all human beings under its jurisdiction?

 

[Nic Samojluk]

The moral offense here is believing that a woman does not have the right to make her own decisions about her own body.

First: Is the unborn an integral part of the woman’s body? How come the unborn has its own DNA? Can a person have two different DNA’s? Can a woman have two heads, four eyes, four legs, and 20 fingers?

Second: Does a woman really own her body? Not according to the Bible!

 

[Nic Samojluk]

The Bible is not the law.

We have the laws created by humans and the moral las inscribed by God on tablets of stone. Which one should we obey?

 

[KingDavid403]

One of God’s commandments forbids murder. My dictionary defines murder as the killing of an innocent human being. The unborn has all the characteristics of a human being. I conclude that killing the unborn is a violation of God’s moral law. Where id I go wrong?

Why do we have a government? What is the governments main duty? Isn't it to protect the life and property of all human beings under its jurisdiction?

You cannot kill something that is not alive. Why did God kill King David's new born son with Bathsheba? Why did God have the Israelite's murder all the new born babies and fetus's in the womb when He told them to take the promise land? Why did not God just have Israel adopt them as their own?
A fetus in the womb has no human characteristics until well after two months of pregnancy and it is not alive. Therefore it cannot be killed.

 

[Dave-W]

You cannot kill something that is not alive.

Except a fetus is alive. Any country hack doctor can tell when a fetus is no longer alive. Most pregnant women can too.

Why did God kill King David's new born son with Bathsheba?

God is the only One who can create life so He is the only one with the moral right to take it away. And since that child was a Jew born into the Mosaic covenant - he was already "saved."

A fetus in the womb has no human characteristics until well after the third month of pregnancy and it is not alive. Therefore it cannot be killed.

If it is not alive then it will never develop into anything more, and will start to rot.

If it is not alive then it is dead already.

 

[AirPo]

One of God’s commandments forbids murder. My dictionary defines murder as the killing of an innocent human being. The unborn has all the characteristics of a human being. I conclude that killing the unborn is a violation of God’s moral law. Where id I go wrong?

Why do we have a government? What is the governments main duty? Isn't it to protect the life and property of all human beings under its jurisdiction?

God’s commandments are not relevant to the legality of abortion. If your dictionary does not include unlawful as part of the defitition of murder, you should get a new dictionary. You went wrong by calling abortion murder. You forgot protecting the rights of and the fact that women are human beings under its jurisdiction.

 

[klatu]

Please, please, please stay on topic here guys... I think this is an important discussion for the Body of Christ as a whole along with society at large to have but the last thread addressing it got overrun with an off topic argument and closed... Please stay on topic...

Here are my basic beliefs on the subject of abortion:

Pro-Life

1. Abortion is murder. It is an affront not just to Christian teaching but to the very foundations of modern society. It takes the rule of law and due process and throws both out the window to allow adults, women like myself in particular, to kill their own offspring for even the most arbitrary of reasons. In most cases it's an evil and barbaric practice that in an ideal world should be criminalized outside of extreme circumstances. To clarify what I mean by "Extreme Circumstances" if there's a higher than 55% chance that the mother will die if she gives birth or carries to term, or if there is less than a 10% chance that the child will be born alive. Even at that point abortion is a necessary evil. It is never right, but there are situations in which it is still better than the alternative and any legal sanctions against it MUST provide exceptions to take those situations into account.

2. We do not live in that ideal world. Therefore whether we believe abortion to be right or wrong our time is better spent creating a world in which abortion is as unneeded and uncommon as possible. What will help that happen? Increased access to preventative birth-control, better and more widespread sex education, more resources for pregnant women regardless or age or background, and much needed reforms to the current adoption and foster-care systems.

3. Until the points outlined above in #2 are accomplished criminalizing abortion would solve very little and create more problems than it gets rid of.

4. I do not fly with the "quality of life" "sick kids shouldn't even be born" argument...

While 'spiritually' I'm the antithesis of your orthodoxy, [but not atheist] I share the same repugnance to abortion, contraception and all sexual abuse that has come, particularly with the sexualization of Western culture. By I approach the subject as a male and from a different direction. If I had one question to ask God, I would ask why he has left the male of our species with a sexual response outside his volition, and as we have seen by the continuing, catholic pedophile priest crisis, an irrational power able to overrule even those who are supposedly trained in a moral order able to confront such corruption. For a corruption is what it is.

Only when men and women seriously begin questioning this often predatory act which looks more at home on the farm than anything approved of by Heaven. This act, bought and sold the world over, from this perspective looks more a tyranny and a curse, a 'stain' on the human heart than any 'gift' of God, making us slaves to concupiscence and Madison avenue.

That women in particular seek to defend themselves from that corruption by abortion and contraception remains an after the fact reality of human nature. And any claims to be both moral and spiritual remain suspect. Until your God come up with a solution to that question, there will be little real progress on abortion.

 

[AirPo]

First: Is the unborn an integral part of the woman’s body?

No, nor is that relevant.

How come the unborn has its own DNA?

That's how reproduction works. And that's not relevant either.

Can a person have two different DNA’s?

No, not that it's relevant.

Can a woman have two heads, four eyes, four legs, and 20 fingers?

There is a living example of a woman with two heads. Of course that leads to the discussion of whether or not that is actually two woman with one body. And again, of course, not relevant.

Second: Does a woman really own her body? Not according to the Bible!

Yes she does, regardless of your interpretation of your Bible.

 

[AirPo]

We have the laws created by humans and the moral las inscribed by God on tablets of stone. Which one should we obey?

That question does not apply to "we." You do not get to make that decision for other people.

 

[Dave-W]

"Can a person have two different DNA’s?"
No, not that it relevant.

Actually, they can. Look up human chimera cases.

 

[AirPo]

Actually, they can. Look up human chimera cases.

Well I stand corrected then.

 

[KingDavid403]

Except a fetus is alive. Any country hack doctor can tell when a fetus is no longer alive. Most pregnant women can too.


God is the only One who can create life so He is the only one with the moral right to take it away. And since that child was a Jew born into the Mosaic covenant - he was already "saved."

If it is not alive then it will never develop into anything more, and will start to rot.

If it is not alive then it is dead already.

You can keep trying to convince yourself of your own lies all you want. However, the majority of us know the truth and you and the others who keep trying to promote lies will never convince us that know the truths of God. Also, you did not answer my questions. We do know that a fetus in the first trimester of pregnancy does not have a soul or spirit and no brain activity; therefore, is not alive as a person or child in God's eyes. Simple as that.

 

[KingDavid403]

Actually, they can. Look up human chimera cases.

Extremely rare.

 

[Uncle Siggy]

I'ld rather say that your religion is the prime factor in your ranting against abortion.
That's the core of your objection.

You don't have to be religious to know right from wrong...

 

[Archivist]

Off topic? The topic is abortion! How was my comment off topic?

I didn't say your post was off topic. I said that what I was writing was off topic.

 

[Dave-W]

You can keep trying to convince yourself of your own lies all you want. However, the majority of us know the truth and you and the others who keep trying to promote lies will never convince us that know the truths of God. Also, you did not answer my questions. We do know that a fetus in the first trimester of pregnancy does not have a soul or spirit and no brain activity; therefore, is not alive as a person or child in God's eyes. Simple as that.

Here is how "life" is defined:

The zygote is universally regarded as being "... biologically alive. It fulfills the four [scientific] criteria needed to establish biological life:

1. metabolism,
2. growth,
3. reaction to stimuli, and
4. reproduction.*

*It can reproduce itself through twinning at any time up to about 14 days after conception; this is how identical twins are caused.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fetu.htm

If you use those 4 criteria as defining "alive," can you STILL say the fetus (or go all the way back to the zygote) is NOT alive?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Here is how "life" is defined:


http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fetu.htm

If you use those 4 criteria as defining "alive," can you STILL say the fetus (or go all the way back to the zygote) is NOT alive?

The problem with abortion debates is that the language we use is full of colloquialisms and emotional rhetoric.

Technically, it's alive.
Technically, it's human.
Technically, it's not a baby.
Technically, it's not murder.

But colloquially...