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Abomination of desolation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Rafael, Jun 26, 2003.

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  1. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Prophecy Countdown,

    We will have to get something straight here. I am not defending nor promoting preterism. I couldn't care less about this ism or that 'ist'.

    I deal with the bible only.
    You list reams of cut and paste bible verses and assume they prove your case. I told you before I have no problems fitting any of this into my understanding. If these verses contradicted my understanding, I would change that understanding, it is that simple.

    So here is the verses in question again.
    17For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

    So we fix our eyes on what is unseen. Gee, that makes no sense why look at what can't be seen?

    BUT hey the next sentence clears things up.. what is seen is temporary..things like Taco Time and storm clouds in the west. What it means is that what is visible or observed by the eye is temporary ( a rose blooms, you see it, but it is only blooming temporary)
    Next, what is unseen is eternal...why would the sentence be necessary if it was to mean...things that haven't happened yet, you can't see...Gee, would there be a need to tell somebody that, are there people that dumb in this world? Just think...Hey Bert, you can't see that because it hasn't happened yet...thats a no-brainer. Your argument is plain no-where.

    You wrote:
    Preterists use the term unseen as meaning invisible.
    The problem I have with that usage, is when it is applied to His second advent.

    As far as the preterist problem, log into a preterist site and they will help you. I won't , it is not my concern.

    Why can the second coming of Christ not be invisible?

    Can you point out three biblical verses where it states that Jesus will return physically to earth? I use three because anybody who comes up with verse interps like you do will try anything.
    To be fair if you put up three that say anything close, I'll put up six that says He deals only in the spiritual realm.

    Justme
     
  2. Arc

    Arc Lover of the Truth

    294
    +10
    Christian
    Married
    Hi Prophecy Countdown,

    So what/who does Daniel 9 refer to?

    "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

    Seventy weeks or weeks of sevens are generally believed to cover 490 years. So have 490 years passed yet since the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince? Well, it's been over 2000 years so either God decreed something that failed or the six points underlined above have taken place.

    Do you need to place an indeterminate gap in this "70 weeks" to make your theory work? The Jews expected "physical things" from Jesus which they did not get, are you expecting the same? Are your eyes set on the "physical" things.

    Abraham wasn't looking for "physical things". He was looking forward to a heavenly country that will be make manifest after the renewal of all things;

    Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Heb 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one.

    BTW, I'm not a preterist. Unless believing passages like "see these bulidings, not one stone will be left upon another, they will all be thrown down" and "this generation shall not pass until all these things have taken place" and "some of you standing here will not taste death until you see me coming in my kingdom" makes me a preterist.

    Matt 1:1 uses the word geÑnesiv which transliterates to genesis.
    The definition of geÑnesiv is:
    1. source, origin
    1. a book of one's lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumerated

    2. used of birth, nativity
    3. of that which follows origin, viz. existence, life
    1. the wheel of life

    That's why other translations use the word genealogy in Matt 1:1.
    Notice a different word is used for Matt 1:17 and Matt 23:36. That word is genea/ which transliterates to genea which means;

    1. fathered, birth, nativity
    2. that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
    1. the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
    2. metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
    1. esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation
    3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time
    4. an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years


    Matt 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations; and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah, fourteen generations.

    My point is that you are trying to make the word generation in Matt 23 to mean the same thing as the KJV rendering of "generation" in Matt 1:1. They are not the same greek word and do no mean the same thing. If the writer had meant the same thing, he would have used the same greek!

    Again Jesus said:
    Matthew 23;
    32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

    Who is He talking to or about? He's taking to "the crowds and to His disciples" (Matt 23:1) Who was he talking about & rebuking? "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees" should cover that. He's not talking in a graveyard or to tombs, shouting to the physically dead.

    Here is a clear example of who Jesus is speaking to:
    Matt 23:31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

    He is speaking to "you". Who is "you"? "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees" is the answer.



    33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

    Again, He's talking to/about the same people as I stated above.

    I am sending you, as in present/future tense? So he is sending more?
    Yes:

    34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

    So what will be the result?

    35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
    36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

    So do you still see "this generation" as refering to the physically dead? Or is it the "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees"? Do those past (dead) generations need to worry about the sentence of Hell? Or is it the physically living that need to worry about Hell:

    33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

    Also notice how Jesus says "of the guilt of your fathers".

    32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

    And ends with all these things will come upon this generation.

     
  3. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Prophecy,

    From one of your posts:

    We are still here waiting for the prophecies to be fully completed some 2000 years later, do we wait in vain for the first Resurrection? do we wait in vain for the first Resurrection?
    *******************

    I asked you what you were calling the 'first ' resurrection, but you didn't answer directly so on a wild assumption I will guess that on this occasion , you will accept what the bible says.
    The bible says the 'first ' resurrection is:

    Rev 20:5

    ..........This is the FIRST resurrection.
    There is more to that verse, but information about the 'first resurrection is definately here.

    So one of your questions above is:
    do we wait in vain for the first Resurrection?
    ********************

    You do, because you are not involved in it. I'll show you why ...again.

    Rev 20:4
    And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Rev 20:6
    6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the FIRST resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

    The above are the participants in the first resurrection.

    Daniel was NOT one of these in the first resurrection. Daniel 'slept' until:

    Daniel 12
    13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

    Meaning ...carry on Danny until you physically die, then you rest(sleep in the dust) until the end of the days when you will be resurrected.

    So Daniel wasn't beheaded, he wasn't killed for his belief in Jesus and Daniel wasn't tempted by the beast.

    Rev 20

    5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

    The NIV brackets the sentence here for clarification, but at any rate, it is clear that the first resurrection which is the reign with Christ for the 1000 years is OVER before the REST of the DEAD (DANIEL are resurrected.

    1 Thess 4
    15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    Daniel is one of those who has fallen asleep. He will be raised BEFORE those who are alive at the coming.

    So in answer to your question ...do we wait in vain for the first Resurrection?...I'm not waiting for it, but if you are, you are waiting in vain because the bible tells you are never going to be involved in it. Since you are alive and you say the parousia hasn't happened yet you are in the late group.

    We know that whoever is ALIVE at the coming(parousia) will be raised AFTER those who sleep and they are AFTER the 1000 years.

    So if you feel the parousia is future...
    Is the 1000 year reign going on now?
    How does this fit in with this future great tribulation?

    Which do you think is happening? Is the 1000 year reign in Heaven and thus INVISIBLE to us(anyone) or is the 1000 year reign still future?

    Justme
     
  4. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

    683
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    Christian
    Private
    UK-Conservative
    Greetings Justme.
    All I can do is show you how I read it and let you comment on it.
    The many Saints of the Old Testament are raised when Jesus is raised. Although they are raised early they are still part of the first resurrection to everlasting life.
    Who they are by name, the Bible doesn’t say.
    It certainly wasn’t any of the Disciples as they were still living at that time.

    Matthew 25:50. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the EARTH DID QUAKE, and the rocks rent; 52. And the GRAVES WERE OPENED; and MANY BODIES of the SAINTS which SLEPT AROSE, 53And came out of the GRAVES AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and INTO THE HOLY CITY, and APPEARED UNTO MANY.


    The earthquake is not the same as the earthquake that will come at trumpet 7 it is mild and the Saints go into the city and people see them.
    Matthew 25:54. Now when the CENTURIAN, and they that were with him, WATCHING JESUS, SAW THE EARTHQUAKE, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

    There were witnesses to the resurrection of many “SAINTS.”
    Luke 20:36. Neither can they DIE ANY MORE: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, BEING the CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION.

    This resurrection of the “SAINTS” at Christ’s resurrection is part of the first, but is not at the 7th trumpet, that is to come later as Paul states. The dead are raised FIRST then the living are changed also into immortal and go up with them all together. This happens at the second coming when Jesus descends in like manner as His Ascension.

    1 Thessalonians 4: 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM in the CLOUDS, to MEET the Lord IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    Rev 11 even the two witnesses are caught up with the voice of God at trump 7.
    Rev 11: 11. Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
    With the earthquake at trumpet seven there is a difference this earthquake is dangerously destructive.

    Rev 11: 13.In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake SEVEN THOUSAND PEOPLE WERE KILLED, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.
    15Then THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD HAVE BECOME the kingdoms OF OUR LORD and of His Christ, and He shall reign FOREVER and ever!”

    There are those that have a part in the "resurrection of life," and there are those that are raised as part of the second resurrection of damnation.

    John 9: 25. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Jesus said that those that pierced Him would also see His coming in the clouds with great glory. Their resurrection is not part of the “resurrection of life” unlike all others that are raised.

    Rev 1:7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and THEY also WHICH PIERCED HIM: and ALL KINDREDS of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    Paul speaks of the resurrection of life being of “the first fruit” being first the Christ, Then those IN CHRIST AT HIS SECOND COMING “ALL WILL be made alive.”

    1st Corinthians 15: 21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST’S AT HIS SECOND COMING. 24THEN cometh the END, when he shall HAVE DELIVERED UP THE KINGDOM OF GOD, even the FATHER; when he shall have PUT DOWN ALL RULE and ALL AUTHORITY and POWER. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The LAST ENEMY that shall be destroyed is DEATH.

    Paul speaks of his own resurrection and “also the resurrection of the dead.” “ALL be made alive.” They that are Christ's at His SECOND coming.”

    That is why I wait for the second coming where Jesus brings “His reward with Him.” TO GIVE EVERY ONE.”
    Rev 22:12. “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, TO GIVE EVERY ONE according to his work.”

    Even back then there were those, Hymenaeus and Philetus; that taught that the resurrection was past.


    2 Timothy 2:17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

    From the above Bible verses we can see that "many Saints” were raised at Christ’s resurrection, and those that are to be raised at the second coming at trump 7 also have a part in “the resurrection of life”.
    As we have studied Rev 19, in eralier posts, we came to Rev 20 to see that Satan now is imprisoned, after losing at Armageddon, for a thousand years by the angel of the Bottomless pit.

    Rev 20:1. Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    2. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

    Please note verse number 3. The number, 3 is right in the MIDDLE OF A SENTENCE some verse numbers can be a problem when used as A SUBJECT ending indicator. They should be used as reference points only. The wording’s intent takes precedence over numbers that were added later.

    3.and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
    4. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

    As we have seen earlier, verse numbers can be inappropriately placed and this can cause problems if they are used as anything else. The subject matter is not necessarily broken by a verse number, which are for reference purposes only.
    On that understanding then, how should we read the following verses? When we take into consideration that there is “the resurrection of life” and the one after the millennium as being the “resurrection of damnation?”

    John 5:29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    We have The Saints being resurrected, being part of the resurrection of life and we that wait on the resurrection at His second coming, being also part of the same “resurrection of life.” Jesus is the resurrection.
    So, repeating verse four after Satan is imprisoned.
    We know the battle of Armageddon has been completed in previous studies in Rev 19 and others.
    Because we have had the battle of Armageddon, Rev 19 which is after the tribulation and after the wedding supper, we can conclude that the following is a record of who the judgment is going to be given to, to all those that were beheaded and were faithful to God during the tribulation.


    4. And I SAW thrones, and THEY sat on them, and JUDGMENT was COMMITED TO THEM. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST for a thousand years.

    All those not in the book of life that died earlier, or died during Armageddon, remain dead and wait for the second “resurrection of damnation.”
    Now remembering what we saw with the verse numbers and what we are goimg to read, this should be the intent of the words.

    The rest of the dead, not raised at the resurrectionare of life are going to be raised at the second resurrection of damnation.

    5.But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

    “finished.” full stop.

    Read on and ignore the number 6 for the intent. the first resurrection is a blessing to receive.

    This is the first resurrection. 6.Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    The above makes better sense than applying something nice to say about the second resurrection of damnation by calling it a part of "the first resurrection."

    .

    God’s people, are a part of the “resurrection of life,” and are blessed by being so.


    6.Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Unfortunately for the rest along with Satan it’s all but over.
    7.And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.




    1 Corinthians 15:54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 1 Corinthians 15:57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that WE WHO ARE ALIVE and REMAIN UNTIL the COMING of the Lord will by NO means PRECEDE those who are ASLEEP. 16For the LORD Himself will DESCEND from heaven with a SHOUT, with the voice of an archangel, and with THE TRUMPET of God. And the DEAD in Christ will rise first. 17THEN we who are ALIVE and remain SHALL BE caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    Justme, quote
    We know that whoever is ALIVE at the coming(parousia) will be raised AFTER those who sleep and they are AFTER the 1000 years.

    My reply.
    If we are raised at the second resurrection after the thousand years we will be in BIG TROUBLE!

    Justme, quote.
    So if you feel the parousia is future...
    Is the 1000 year reign going on now?
    How does this fit in with this future great tribulation?

    My reply.
    To the first question, yes.
    To the second, no.
    To the third question. The tribulation. Then second coming, and Resurrection unto life, then the blessing at the wedding supper, return for battle of Armageddon, Satan imprisoned for the millennium.

    Which do you think is happening? Is the 1000 year reign in Heaven and thus INVISIBLE to us(anyone) or is the 1000 year reign still future?

    My reply.

    To the first question, no.

    To the second is, yes.

    Maranatha.

    Prophecy Countdown.
     
  5. Linda8

    Linda8 Member

    326
    +1
    Messianic
    Could you explain how Jesus could judge humans in invisible form?

    What would be the difference between Jesus and the Holy spirit

    if both were invisible?
     
  6. good4u

    good4u <font color="darkblue"><font size="3"><b><i><font

    +45
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Republican
    It is apparent from this thread that alot of posters like to speculate regarding alot of events in the end time events instead of reading and understanding what Scripture states. How about doing that instead of making wild assertions, hmmmm?

    It will be more edifying and definitely more challengeing for most posters in this thread.

    What a novel idea!!!! :roll eyes:
     
  7. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi good4u,

    Maybe you could list say three things which the bible says predict end times and then we can discuss those.
    If you could point out anything connected with the abomination that causes desolation we could re-rail this de-rail.

    But,hey, we are having fun........

    Justme
     
  8. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi PC,

    One thing that jumps out from your post is that the 'second resurrection' is involving only the nasty folk. Where does this come from? What scripture would you use to illustrate that?

    The resurrection talked about in the first few verses of Daniel 12 show that it is a judgment to good times or not so good.
    The great white throne judgment says:
    13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

    Does it just happen that only the righteous die at sea?

    If the great white throne judgment involves only righteous where does the bible talk of the sorting process that preceded it. (read verse 13 again)

    John 5 talks of a righteous and a not so good as well

    28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

    These are people who 'sleep' in the dust. There is a judgment which can go both ways.

    Are the people who sleep in the dust all nasty folk? If so tell me what Daniel did to deserve that? Daniel is in the dust sleeping, remember 1 Thess 4:15.

    I can't think of any verses which would indicate that there is any resurrection of ONLY the nasty folk.....enlighten me.

    I think this is a key issue. I will deal with your other comments in a separate post.

    Thanks

    Justme

    PS PC
    I had to edit this post because it won't let me say D*A*M*N*E*D I changed it to nasty folks.
     
  9. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Linda8,

    Your question:

    Could you explain how Jesus could judge humans in invisible form?
    ***********************

    The judge and those being judged are in the spiritual realm, invisible to physical/natural mankind.

    We know that we will face judgment according to Matthew and these are the possible outcomes.

    Matthew 12:37
    For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

    We know we all face judgment because:
    36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

    When do we know of the outcome of that judgment?

    Hebrews 9
    27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

    Man dies a physical death and after that death, the man has his judgment made known to him.

    Further buiblical reference to the spiritual at death:

    Ecclesiastes 3:20
    All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.
    And

    Ecclesiastes 12:7

    and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

    The 'spirit', immortal soul, returns to the GOD who gave it and that GOD is in the eternal, invisible to us,Heaven.

    For more on the eternal and invisible :

    2 Cor 4
    So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

    This was just discuussed here back a few posts.

    From your post:

    What would be the difference between Jesus and the Holy spirit

    if both were invisible?

    The third of the trinity is invisible to living, physical beings as well.

    I can't directly answer your question...the trinity is more of a 'feeling' than a describable entity...or something like that.

    Thanks for responding,'

    Justme
     
  10. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    THE FIRST RESURRECTION

    This involves those who reign with Christ for 1000 years Revelation 20

    Now ARE THERE ANY SINNERS involved in the first resurrection?..No

    Revelation 20:4 they did not receive the mark of the beast and did not worship the beast or its image.
    Revelation 20:6 Blessed are those who share in the first resurrection, they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for 1000 years.

    Daniel 12 :2 They will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting

    contempt

    HOWEVER, THE FIRST RESURRECTION does not INVOLVE ALL WHO GO INTO HEAVEN AFTER JUDGEMENT in Revelation 20:15.... many will also awake after the 1000 years

    as said in Daniel 12, some to eternal life and some to eternal torment.

    Comparing Daniel 12 to Revelation 20:4 we see that the First resurrection involves only

    those in Christ beheaded for their love for Christ and God.. they did not receive the mark of the beast and did not worship the beast or its image.

    That is the first resurrection. MANY CHRISTIANS and believers remain dead DURING THE 1000 years and come to life after THE 1000 years are ended.

    Revelation 20:5 THE REST OF THE DEAD did not come to life after the 1000 years were ended
     
  11. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian

    Many people will never die before judgement.... ARE YOU IMPLYING THAT the entire planet will be killed off .... then who lives under Christ in the 1000 years?

    Hebrews 9
    27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

    This is correct, and speaks of life before actual 2nd advent, 1000 years and judgement.

    AT the time of judgement, there will be some people who are alive HAVING LIVED through the 1000 years, in addition to those who resurrect after the 1000 years.

    What is going to happen to the billions of people who are alive AFTER CHRIST defeats

    the Beast and the False prophet in Revelation 19:20-21? They do not suddenly vanish from the Earth and Revelation 19:20-21 happens in the future

    BEFORE THE 1000 years and those BILLIONS who do not die after Revelation 19:20-21, live with procreation through the 1000 years . It is difficult to assume that POPULATION growth would be static AFTER THE second advent.... Would millions of young women BECOME IMMeDIATELY barren? Explain that sudden barreness.

    Those people will also be ruled by Christ visibly, do not expect the likes of

    our corrupt Presidents to rule when Christ returns. What would be the point of Christ returning if many of our corrupt leaders are still making laws and ruling?
     
  12. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi PC,

    you wrote:
    All I can do is show you how I read it and let you comment on it.

    Perfect.

    You wrote:

    he many Saints of the Old Testament are raised when Jesus is raised. Although they are raised early they are still part of the first resurrection to everlasting life.

    I don't see it that way. The story goes they:

    52. And the GRAVES WERE OPENED; and MANY BODIES of the SAINTS which SLEPT AROSE, 53And came out of the GRAVES AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and INTO THE HOLY CITY, and APPEARED UNTO MANY.

    They were physically seen by many at that time, but they can't be seen now. That wouldn't be everlasting life nor can it be called an example of physical, eternal resurrection. They are not physically alive today.

    You wrote:

    The earthquake is not the same as the earthquake that will come at trumpet 7 it is mild and the Saints go into the city and people see them.

    I agree it is not the same earthquake.They are talking about the time of the cross.

    You wrote:

    There were witnesses to the resurrection of many “SAINTS.”

    Yes, it says they appeared to many.

    However, you use Luke 20:36 as an illustration.

    Luke 20:36. Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, BEING the CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION.

    You would need this to stay in context.

    34Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

    Now it seems to me we are simply talking about all people of THIS age that marry and in the AGE to come people do not marry and in the AGE to come people no longer die any more. In THIS age man can die, in the age to come after the establishment of the kingdom of God people can pass from the earthly to the heavenly(or Hell) ,but they won't die any more ...no more sleep in the dust concious of nothing.

    From your post:

    This resurrection of the “SAINTS” at Christ’s resurrection is part of the first, but is not at the 7th trumpet, that is to come later as Paul states.
    *****************
    Again, I don't consider this a resurrect to eternity because these died from physical/earthly existance again.

    From your post:
    The dead are raised FIRST then the living are changed also into immortal and go up with them all together. This happens at the second coming when Jesus descends in like manner as His Ascension.
    ******************

    I don't agree that those alive at the time of the parousia are raised at the same time as the REST OF THE DEAD.

    1 Thess 4
    17AFTER THAT, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

    Verse 15 also puts the REST OF THE DEAD ahead of those living at the time of the parousia.

    ALL go to the same place(to meet Jesus in the air) but not necessarily at the same time.

    Concerning Rev 11

    8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

    That city was Jerusalem. I thought the actual city that Jesus was crucified in was destroyed !

    THis is interesting from your post:(Typo? 5:29?)

    John 9: 25. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Jesus said that those that pierced Him would also see His coming in the clouds with great glory. Their resurrection is not part of the “resurrection of life” unlike all others that are raised.
    *************************

    What makes you think these are at two different times?

    You listed a number of verses and then wrote this:

    Paul speaks of his own resurrection and “also the resurrection of the dead.” “ALL be made alive.” They that are Christ's at His SECOND coming.”

    Yes, all will be made 'alive' some to good times and some to bad times ...heaven or hell.

    There is a resurrection of the DEAD at the time of/near the time of the parousia. Why would it be necessary to resurrect those physically ALIVE at the parousia?

    You wrote:

    That is why I wait for the second coming where Jesus brings “His reward with Him.” TO GIVE EVERY ONE.”
    *********************

    I wait too, but I most assuredly, am in no rush.

    You wrote:

    Even back then there were those, Hymenaeus and Philetus; that taught that the resurrection was past.

    That is the other reason I say those who came up out of the graves after the crucifixion were not resurrected.

    You wrote:

    As we have studied Rev 19, in eralier posts, we came to Rev 20 to see that Satan now is imprisoned, after losing at Armageddon, for a thousand years by the angel of the Bottomless pit.

    What are you using to state Saton is imprisoned NOW?

    You wrote:
    On that understanding how should we read the following verses? When we take into consideration that there is “the resurrection of life” and the one after the millennium as being the “resurrection of damnation?”

    I see nothing in scripture to conclude that the resurrection AFTER the 1000 years as being only a resurrection of damnation.

    You wrote:

    We know the battle of Armageddon has been completed in previous studies in Rev 19 and others.
    Because we have had the battle of Armageddon which is after the tribulation and after the wedding supper, we can conclude that the following is a record of who the judgment is going to be given to, to all those that were beheaded and were faithful to God during the tribulation.
    ************
    I think the battle of Armmageddon is a heavenly description of a symbolic battle between good and evil, a lamb and a serpent. The lamb won.

    You wrote:

    The above makes better sense than applying something nice to say about the second resurrection of damnation by calling it a part of "the first resurrection."
    ************** Let's wait until I see where you are getting this 'only for the wicked' resurrection from.

    You wrote:
    If we are raised at the second resurrection after the thousand years we will be in BIG TROUBLE!
    **************
    Not according to this:

    Rev 14
    3Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

    Said just as John looks up and sees the coming on the clouds event.

    It is the ones who die after the parousia who are blessed. In my mind it is the ones who were able to wait for the 1335 days(and after) who are truly blessed. At the parousia the Kingdom of God is fully operational.
    Mankind can pass from the earthly to the heavenly in the blink of an eye, no more sleeping in the dust and waiting for a resurrection.

    I guess my main question is still about this second wicked only resurrection. I understand what verses you use for some of your ideas, but I disagree with your interpretation of those verses.

    Justme
     
  13. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
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    Christian
    You could be blaspheming Christ here. Christ resurrected but did not physically live

    on earth after 35AD and over the centuries till post 20th century. Does that mean CHRIST did not have everlasting life after his resurrection? No.

    Those who resurrected DID NOT NEED TO SPEND 1900 YEARS living amidst humans after resurrecting
    to prove that they resurrected. You are using unscriptural comparisons here.

    Your point is not valid.
    The Sadducees were also looking at it from your point of view.
    See Matthew 22:31-32 "God is not the God of the dead but God of the living "and physical death is NOT DEATH in the dimension of God... only mortals fear death and feel death. Physical death OR BEING SEEN on earth is not what is used to determine whether those who resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53 had everlasting life.
    They never died in God anymore

    Jesus states Even if you die, you will still live.
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying,
    he shall never see death."

    Jesus Christ
    John 8:51

    Do not bring in mortal death into the dimension of God. Christ does not consider mortal death as death. That is JUST A HUMAN limitation.
     
  14. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Atkin,

    Good stuff.

    These people who came up out of the grave were used previously to illustrate the physical /out of grave-resurrection of man. I was saying here, again, that I don't see this as an eternal resurrection to illustrate that point.
    I guess that wouldn't be very clear to anyone reading my post. Sorry about that.

    Jesus is a diferent story, Jesus IS the resurrection.

    Justme
     
  15. Palatka44

    Palatka44 Unabashedly Baptist

    +88
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    These are not Christian never have been never will be. The followers of Christ will always turely follow him. When asked by Pilot if he was a king he replied in John 18:36,37

    [font color=red]36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
    37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.[/font color=red]

    Every one that took part in the Crusades or any that follow doctrines other than what Jesus has given are to be acurssed. His kingdom is not of this world and his servents are not to take up arms to further his kingdom. His kingdom is brought forth by the suffering of its people as Christ also sufferd.
    This is totaly against how the kingdoms of this world are arranged. They are arranged through war and conquest and to the victors go the spoils. However the Church of Christ is made strong through persecution and suffering.
    In Verse 37 Jesus said Every one that is of the turth hears my voice. The ones that you put forth as shinning examples of Christian faith had hardley followed these teachings and are not Christian. For to be Christian is to be Christ like.
     
  16. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Hi there Justme.
    I would just like to give brief answers to your questions, then use the Bible for backup in the next post in detail.

    Justme, you said.
    &#8220;One thing that jumps out from your post is that the 'second resurrection' is involving only the nasty folk. Where does this come from? What scripture would you use to illustrate that?&#8221;

    My reply.
    Yes the second resurrection after the thousand years, is only for those deserving of damnation.

    Justme, you said.
    The resurrection talked about in the first few verses of Daniel 12 show that it is a judgment to good times or not so good.
    The great white throne judgment says:
    13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done
    Does it just happen that only the righteous die at sea?
    If the great white throne judgment involves only righteous where does the bible talk of the sorting process that preceded it. (read verse 13 again)

    My reply.
    Regardless of where folk die the Righteous or unrighteous are all raised, some (the righteous) at the first resurrection, from everywhere on Earth. Then the (unrighteous) at the second resurrection, gathered from everywhere on Earth as part of the resurrection of damnation in Rev 20:13.
    The separation of the two types is done when they of faith have their names placed in the BOOK OF LIFE and the second type who don&#8217;t. This has gone on from as long ago as the foundation of the Earth.


    Justme, you said.
    John 5 talks of a righteous and a not so good as well

    28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

    My reply.
    Yes, John speaks of both the good and bad but he does NOT indicate that both groups are to be raised at the same time.

    Justme, you said.
    These are people who 'sleep' in the dust. There is a judgment which can go both ways.

    My reply.
    Yes that&#8217;s right there are two judgements but at DIFFERENT times that are going to go both ways, but again John does not say this will happen at the exact same time.

    Justme you said.
    Are the people who sleep in the dust all nasty folk? If so tell me what Daniel did to deserve that? Daniel is in the dust sleeping, remember 1 Thess 4:15.

    My reply.
    No, not all that are in the dust are "nasty," only those that are left in the ground who are not in the book of life. Which means Daniel will be raised at the first resurrection of life at the second coming.
    If the (righteous) dead precede the (righteous) living at the resurrection of life, at the second coming, when ALL ARE RAISED, who are written in the book of life at the last trump the dead first then just moments later the living go up together."CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM."
    That&#8217;s what the Bible says in verse 17.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are ALIVE and remain UNTIL the COMING OF THE LORD will by no means PRECEDE those who are ASLEEP.

    16 For THE LORD HIMSELF WILL DESCEND from heaven with a SHOUT, with the voice of an archangel, and with THE TRUMPET of God. And the DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST.

    The last verse says that the dead WILL rise, it does not even, hint or say only a few of the dead will rise.

    17. THEN WE WHO ARE ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds to MEET THE LORD in the air. And thus we shall ALWAYS be with the Lord.

    The three last verses are concerned with the gathering of ALL the righteous, dead or alive, at the first resurrection of life.


    Justme, you said.
    I can't think of any verses which would indicate that there is any resurrection of ONLY the nasty folk.....enlighten me.

    My reply.
    There is a finale resurrection after the thousand years for the unrighteous where they are all burnt to death outside the Holy city of God. I will use the Bible for back up in the following paragraphs.

    Justme, you said.
    I think this is a key issue. I will deal with your other comments in a separate post.

    Thanks

    Justme

    My reply.
    Yes, I agree absolutely that the key is all tied up with those questions and suggestion that you have made, and I thank you for them..


    PS PC
    I had to edit this post because it won't let me say D*A*M*N*E*D I changed it to nasty folks.

    Justme.
    I see the problem, what if we write the word as you have done or with full stops? Just a thought.
     
  17. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Now I will use the Bible in detail to try and prove my point.

    Here is your first question to me.
    Justme You asked..
    &#8220;One thing that jumps out from your post is that the 'second resurrection' is involving only the nasty folk. Where does this come from? What scripture would you use to illustrate that?&#8221;

    My reply.
    Good question!
    There are the TWO types of resurrections in the Bible as we all know. John clearly states this fact. We have the first, &#8220;the resurrection of life,&#8221; and a second resurrection, &#8220;the resurrection of damnation.&#8221; However, John does NOT state that they are to occur at the same time. He just states that the &#8220;done good&#8221; types are raised at the resurrection of life, and the &#8220;done evil&#8221; types are raised at the resurrection of damnation.


    John 9: 25. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    In Acts, the writer again states that there will be a two resurrections for both the just and unjust types. Again the writer does not state that those two resurrections will occur at the same time .

    Acts 24:15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

    Justme, could you please show me where the Bible states that both resurrections occur at the same time?

    Or where the resurrection of damnation means something else?

    How can there be two types good and bad being raised at the resurrection of Damnation?

    I wonder, does the term resurrection of damnation mean something else?

    Daniel also says the same thing as being about two distinct resurrections, only he states very clearly that the first resurrection of life will occur during the time of trouble (tribulation?) and Daniel says &#8220;AT THAT TIME thy people shall be delivered, EVERYONE found written in the book.
    Note Justme, it is &#8220;EVERYONE found written in the book&#8221;
    that will be delivered.

    The above must also include Daniel.

    Not only does this apply to the living at the time of the second coming, but Daniel also states that it includes &#8220;them that sleep in the dust of the earth.&#8221;
    So, if Daniel is asleep in death in the dust of the earth, and is written in the book of life he will be raised at the last trump at the second coming.

    Dan 12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, EVERYONE that shall be FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK.

    So the last verse proves absolutely, that Daniel is NOT raised after the thousand years, but at the second coming which is prior to the 1000 years.

    Daniel now refers to the two resurrections, but he does NOT say that they will occur at the same time. He states what happens at each of the two types of people involved.
    Dan 12:2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Because we are told by the Bible that &#8220;everyone shall be raised. &#8220;AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, EVERY ONE that shall be FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK,&#8221; I must conclude that, that is the fulfillment of &#8220;the resurrection of life&#8221; prophecies.

    The first resurrection is complete as &#8220;ALL those FOUND in the book of life ALL HAVE BEEN SAVED.&#8221;
    There is no hope for anyone, not found in the book of life, and so they remain dead untill the second reurrection of damnation 1000 years later.

    The next question is, does Daniel belong in the Book of life, having the gift to be resurrected at the second coming of Christ at the end of the time of trouble (tribulation) period?

    The answer is yes, because the book of life has been there since the very beginning. &#8220;from the foundation of the world,&#8221; and is a record of all that are entered into it from that time, which certainly includes Daniel&#8217;s life span.

    Rev 17:8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    Being that the first resurrection has been completed and All those in the book of life have been raised, we must now look for the next resurrection, the &#8220;resurrection of damnation."

    What is there said in the Bible, that is good about the second resurrection?
    Nothing.
    We have established the fact that ALL those dead or alive at the second coming, who are written in the book of life have been raised at the one and only second coming of Christ.

    We now have to see what happens to those NOT in the book of life.
    How are they judged?
    How are their works measured. And what happens to them.

    Knowing that the Book of life has existed from the foundation of the Earth and all that have lived in faith, have been recorded in it, and ALL those dead and alive, will be raised by the saviour at His second coming, what is there left for God to complete?

    JUDGMENT of the wicked will proceed by those that were &#8220;beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast.&#8221;
    This is how the wicked are judged.
    Rev 20.4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    What about he rest of the dead, that were not in the book of life and remain dead?

    We know Daniel is in the Book of life, because he was promised that after death, he would stand.
    Dan 12:13. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

    Jesus WILL return at His second advent, and Jesus can correctly claim that "EVERY EYE shall see Him" coming in the clouds, and that includes firstly those raised from death, (including Daniel) then we that are still living, will be gathered with them at His second advent. See Rev 1:7.

    The wicked dead, those that were NOT in the book of life stay dead.

    Rev 20.5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
    We now have TWO distinct TYPES. The saved and unsaved. The division is now complete.

    We now have the dead waiting to be raised after a 1000 years for the second resurrection of damnation.
    Again as I have already indicated in an earlier post, that the numeral six does NOT indicate anything but a reference marker which was added as such.
    The first resurrection is completed, when ALL those in the book of life are saved from the second death.


    We know that in verse 4 of Rev 20. Speaks about the redeemed that live with Christ for a 1000 years. Knowing now that ALL were raised who were recorded in the book of life.
    How should we read the following verse?

    Do we read it like this?
    Rev 20:5. &#8220;But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection?&#8221;

    This does not make sense, seeing as the Bible has just told us that &#8220;ALL&#8221; in the book of life have been raised.

    All the Bible is saying is &#8220;But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

    Full stop end of sentence, after the word finished.
    The problem is, someone put the numeral. 6 in a place where it can mislead, if some folk think that a number placed many, many centuries after the Bible was written, somehow rearranges it&#8217;s intent.

    The Bible should be read like this, keeping in mind its intent. That God&#8217;s people will receive a blessing for suffering through the tribulation of 1335 days.

    Rev 20: &#8220;This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.&#8221;
    All I have done is ignore a number and looked fot the intent of the words.

    Are the types remaining dead blessed after the 1000 years resurrection?
    No!
    Are the raised, named in the book of life blessed. Yes!
    If you don&#8217;t believe that a verse number can be placed in an inappropriate place, such as right smack bang in the middle of a sentence then just have a look at the previous verse 3 in Rev 20 and check it out.
    That is why verse numbers should only be used for referencing purposes. and not for meaning changes.

    What happens when the wicked are raised at &#8220;the resurrection of damnation&#8221; when Satan is released?

    Rev 20.7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to GATHER THEM together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the SAINTS about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and DEVOURED THEM. 10And the devil that deceived THEM was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    The last verses demonstrate that those not raised and who were NOT written in the book of life, were destroyed at the resurrection of damnation, the second death.

    They were reserved for the second resurrection &#8220;the resurrection of damnation.&#8221; Did they gain a blessing?

    No, not one of them.

    The resurrection of damnation is only carried out once, and is only after the thousand years.

    What happens next?
    Rev 21: 1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    When Satan plants his tabernacle on the mount it is for no longer than 1290 days, look out folks.

    Daniel 12: 11. And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    The persecution will start, for 1335 days and will usher in the second advent and life eternal for those found written in the book of life.

    Daniel 12: 12. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    As for Daniel being written in the book of life? He will see, as every eye will the coming of the great day of the Lord
    Daniel 12: 13. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

    I have tried to keep it short Justme.

    Maranatha.

    Prophecy Countdown.
     
  18. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi PC,

    We read this from diametrically opposed positions alright.

    John 5

    28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

    Who hears Jesus' voice?...ALL who are in the graves...

    There is not mention of time(S) only A time is coming...

    As Jesus is talking here He is only referring to the DEAD, those in the graves. When you discussed John 5 in your post, you didn't include verse 28.
    Verse 29 In the NIV

    29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

    Bringing 28 back in it is ALL who are in the graves will hear and come out...It is obviously not only the wicked or ****ed because out of ALL those who come out some have done good and some have done evil.

    No, I can't change my mind because of these verses, they show strong support for it being at the same time and judgement can go either way.

    Daniel 12

    1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

    From this we learn that Daniel's people and all those whose name is written in the book will be delivered. Raised to heaven.

    When will this happen? At the time of the great tribulation. It doesn't say before, during or after ..just at that time.

    There is no statement that says there is some other time for the *****ed to rise. There is only mention of that one time ..that of the great tribulation.
    Yes, as you say those whose name is written in the book will rise, but they will rise at the time of the great tribulation.

    So what do you take here to say the resurrections are at different times.

    Once again let's look at Hebrews 9:27. (You mentioned something about this and I can't find it now.

    27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

    Man faces judgment AFTER death.

    How does the judgment work?

    Matthew 12'
    37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

    That indicates to me that the judgment AFTER death can send you up or down.

    It doesn' say how long after death you know your judgment, just that it is AFTER death.

    Knowing this however, eliminates any consideration of some people physically living and somehow being granted the gift of eternal heavenly life without being physically dead first. The trick is did the person die before the cross when there was no hope of eternal life or did the person die after all of Christs enemies(last being death) had been destroyed.

    Acts

    Acts 24:15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

    Later in that chapter...
    25As Paul discoursed on righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come,

    Paul refers to THE judgment not judgment(S)

    Rev 20 Great White Throne Judgment

    The Dead Are Judged

    11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    John saw this happening in his vision.

    There is little doubt that this involved the good and the not so good and it also involves the Book of Life as did Daniel 12. As I said before did only the righteous die at sea?

    No, I can't go along with two separate resurrections, one for you and I and one for Saddom Hussein and at different times.

    I looked at this earlier but let's look again:

    Dan 12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, EVERYONE that shall be FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK.

    So the last verse proves absolutely, that Daniel is NOT raised after the thousand years, but at the second coming prior to the 1000 years.

    Actually this can't be.

    The 1000 year reign with Christ is prior to the parousia. Daniel is one of the REST OF THE DEAD, those who sleep in the dust and are raised at the time of the great tribulation. Those who are ALIVE at the parousia can NOT precede Daniel, who is AFTER the 1000 year reign with christ. Rev 20 1-6. 1 Thess 4

    I'll get back to this because you have many more points, but the hour is late.

    Justme
     
  19. Wills

    Wills Member

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    Messianic
    ************THE GREAT TRIBULATION**********
    THE TRIBULATION defines the time very very well.
    Daniel as part of the REST OF THE DEAD is raised at the time of the great tribulation-- that is in our near future--NOT 1000 YEARS after the second coming. We are expecting the tribulation under the antichrist in the near future, NOT AFTER 1000 YEARS after the second advent.

    The tribulation CANNOT HAPPEN AFTER CHRIST REIGNS for 1000 years--FAR FROM IT--CHRIST's 1000 years does NOT END WITH TRIBULATION
    Tribulation takes place BEFORE THE 2ND ADVENT, HENCE DANIEL is raised with the rest of the dead during the TRIBULATION which is before the 1000 years.

    It is impossible for the tribulation mentioned IN DANIEL 12 to take place after Christ is controlling the Earth after 1000 years.
     
  20. Wills

    Wills Member

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    Acts 24:15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

    John 9: 25. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    The writer DOES NOT STATE that they occur at different times. Why assume otherwise.?

    Revelation 20:4-5 is THE ONLY TEXT THAT separates the two. That is the only text separating them, but it onlyu mentions beheaded souls as first resurrectors.NOTHING ELSE IN REVELATION 20:4 about other Christian dead.

    THE MILLIONS OF CHRISTIANS who were NOT BEHEADED for their faith in Jesus and who DIED OF NATURAL CAUSES in the hundreds of years after Christ right up till THE 16th, 17th, 18th through till 20th and even 21st century, ARE NOT MENTIONED in Revelation 20:4

    Revelation 20:6 Blessed are those who take part in the 1st resurrection, and they are ONLY THOSE beheaded saints etc WHO REIGN with Christ for 1000 years..... that does not include that Christian who died of natural causes in New York City in 1967 etc

    Of course people will resurrect to EXPERIENCE TWO different futures, Etenal life and Eternal condemnation

    Acts 24:15. in no way states that they OCCUR AT DIFFERENT TIMES, they are resurrections to 2 different futures that is all

    REVELATIONS 20:4-6 Teaches the SEPARATION by 1000 years of two resurrections, but IT DOES NOT teach THAT ALL CHRISTIANS AND ALL BELIEVERS IN GOD WILL BE RAISED before the 1000 years.
    Revelation 20:4 MENTIONS ONLY THE murdered, beheaded souls, killed for their love and faith in God and Christ.

    ****************************
    DANIEL NEVER STATES THAT THERE WILL BE A TIME PERIOD between the resurrection in Daniel 12

    Of course, there are two different futures AFTER THE RESURRECTION.... some people to eternal life and some people to eternal torment.

    DANIEL 12 DOES NOT STATE anything more concerning time between those who live eternally after the resurrection and those who face torment after resurrection.
     
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