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Abomination of desolation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Rafael, Jun 26, 2003.

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  1. cbk

    cbk Guest

    +0
    Strange? Not strange at ALL!!!!

    Why would Rabbis today (or 2000 years ago) consider becoming Christian just because a bunch of uneducated, young, dissention-loving, fanitical followers of a false Messiah claim to have seen Jesus conversing with Moses and Elijah???? This is what devoute Jews consider the apostles, do they not??

    The followers of Jesus claim to have seen something great to the Jews. But, where was the PROOF to make the Rabbis believe that Moses and Elijah actually appeared to Jesus? Certainly, they would have asked the twelve, "How do you know it was Moses and Elijah and not demons?" "Do you know what Moses and Elijah look like??" "Are you not telling us an untruth??" "Why are you trying to lead us astray when your leader is DEAD, DEAD, DEAD."

    If I told YOU that I saw the exact same thing before coming to work this morning, would you believe??? Of course not!!! So, why should they??

    And, secondly, IF any Rabbis believed what was said (which a few MAY have), then guess what?? They probably wouldn't have been rabbis anymore! They would be labeled Christian and would have had to take the first camel out of town and thus lose their position and maybe even their names in the books of history. They would have become irrelevant to the Jews of old and forgotten by those of today.

    The fact that Rabbis today and yesterday are not impressed with Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus is of NO surprise to me at all. Even with the proof of the power of Jesus in the form of his miracles and the truth of his words, they would not believe! So, why would they believe the testimony of a bunch of "losers" concerning something as great as seeing Moses and Elijah??? They would not.
     
  2. cbk

    cbk Guest

    +0
    And also, did not the Rabbis expect the TRUE Messiah, when he came, to pat them on the back for all the GOOD that they have done? Christ did not do this.

    Did they not expect the true Messiah, when he came, to turn against the SINNERS and turn to them for, of course, they were not sinners in their eyes?? Christ did not do this.

    Did they not expect the true Messiah, if he came, to do away with the Romans and set up his earthly kingdom on the earth in a physical way that they would recognize? Christ did not.

    So, they did not accept Christ as the Messiah and they certainly believed nothing that his followers would say!

    If Christ appeared and conversed with Moses and Elijah, it was for a STRONG reason. I cannot discount the possibility that these two are of high standing in the kingdom of Heaven to this day simply because they lived under the Old Law. Very little surprises me. This certainly would not be a surprise, but the Will of God.

    It was not luck that baby Moses escaped death and lived the life he did. If the spirit of God dwelt in him and he was justified by faith, then was he really under the law, even in the Old Testament? And, even if he were under the Old Law, does God not have the power (that transcends space and TIME) and the authority to do as HE pleases with the vessels that he created and placed upon the earth?
     
  3. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Wills ‘ quote to me.
    The Moderator has spoken to you once.

    Did the moderator speak to me Wills?

    Did he mention me by name? NO!

    How do you know Wills, that it wasn’t addressed to you? You don’t know that at all, do you!

    I had never spoken to you before, but the first time you spoke to me
    Was with the following rude remark.
    Quote.
    “The Bible clearly says you are telling a lie.”

    So Wills get the facts right it was YOU doing the NAME CALLING
    nobody else at that time.

    It was me that complained about your rude remark!

    In reply to my complaint. This is what the moderator said.

    Blackwing senior administrator. WARNING!!!!
    be nice people. Just a friendly reminder from your resident senior
    administrator, This is a debate but please NO NAME CALLING or else this thread will be closed and warnings will be issued.
    Carry on.
    Play skillfully with a loud noise!!!Psalm 33:3

    "He who sings, prays twice."
    --St. Augustine

    In music one must think with the heart and feel with the brain.
    --George Szell

    In the palm of HIS hands always,

    Glenn

    What did you say Wills tripping over yourself?

    “The Moderator has spoken to ME once.” :D LOL.

    LOOK IN A MIRROR, any mirror will do and you will see who the moderator was speaking to.

    Wills' quote.
    "Ezekiel seems to be telling us of SIN during the millenium."

    I am not interested in what you may think Ezekiel "SEEMS to be telling us."

    Spell it out and then I will look at it.


    We were waiting, and still are waiting, to here your detailed and scholarly answers to my staight forward questions which have everything to do with the abomination of desolation.




    So again I ask can you answer the questions I first put to you?

    If you do not answer them we can ALL assume that you haven't a clue as to what they mean and therefore can't.
    So how about being straight with us ALL and tell us now, that you can't then that will save a lot of time and then I can explain them myself.

    Are the events in Matt 24 historic or future events?

    Are the events in Mark 13 historic or future events?

    Are the events in Luke 21 historic or future events?

    Are the events in Rev 11: 19: 20, historic events or future events?

    Are the events in Joel 1: 2: 3. Historic or future events?

    Are the seven trumpets and 3 woes historic or future events?

    Are the seven bowls of the wrath of God, historic or future events?

    Is the time period indicated in Daniel, the” 2300 evening and morning historic or future events?”

    How many days between the day of Atonement and the Passover?

    Is the time period indicated in Daniel of the 1260 days, historic or future?

    Is the time period indicated in Daniel of the 1290 days historic or future?

    Is the time period of the 1335 days of Daniel, historic or future?

    Is the time period mentioned by Daniel of a time, times and a half
    a Historic event or in the future?

    The rain that is stopped for 1260 days, by the two witnesses is it a historic event or future event?
    If it was a historic event who recorded it?

    Are the time, times and a half, time period of Revelation a historic or future event?

    Is the 42 months of Revelation a historic or future event?

    Is the 1260 days period of Revelation a Historic or future event?

    If these periods are “historic” could any preterist explain them, CLEARLY and define them ,CLEARLY so that we may see the explanations of them and see why they are put into the Bible by Jesus Himself and through Gabriel, Palmini and what they are associated with and identify there meaning CLEARLY.

    Can justme. Atkin, Wills explain the reason that the lion, bear, leopard are around at the same time for “a time and season” In Daniel 7:12.

    Why they are waiting around at THE SAME TIME in Rev 19 waiting for Armageddon, to be put to the sword when preterists claim that they are supposed to be historic empires?


    YES OR NO Wills, we are here waiting. :sleep:
     
  4. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Greetings.
    I first asked my questions in post 127, Then Wills did the oldest trick of them all, he/she then tried to answer my questions with questions in a later post.

    Wills Quote.
    “Kindly answer this question below succintly in relation to your issue regarding SIN in the millenium .”


    My reply.
    “My issue regarding SIN in the millennium?”
    There is NO SIN DURING THE MILLENIUM!
    So there, is no issue.

    Also Atkin’s Quotes come to mind.
    Atkin quote.
    “Avoid deluding yourself with your meagre scriptural knowledge.”
    “Seek help from knowledgeable Bible students and get them to explain to
    you”
    “Were you asleep during the Iraq war?”
    “At this time, to lay out what Satan will do and when a temple is built
    etc makes God's end time events very trite and mere simple sequences”



    I say this, the days when some church
    indoctrinated folk can bully and bluff others, is over, until the time of the end of course, then His children will really cop a bucket full.
    There is a smugness about some church folk and I don’t like it.

    When it comes to making remarks about people some church folk are the best.
    However when it comes to answering Biblical questions asked of them dealing with prophecy, they go to water.
    I am still waiting for some answers.

    So, to true Christians I say this. The Holy Spirit gives, power, power in the word that will be very strong and potent, not smug or arrogant or personal, but it will have the convincing, convicting, converting message which will stir the heart.

    I will wait a little longer for the answers I seek, then I will give some information looking at Daniel, Revelation, Joel, Mat, Mark Luke and others with the answers.

    When I do watch some church folk start jumping up and down, getting fired up based on their knowledge of prophecy,,, ,,,which ,, :sleep: ,,we still ,, :sleep: ,,await.

    When they do this I will ask the same questions again.
    I am very interested in Daniel and Revelation.
    but Daniel is special to me, so I don’t mind questions at all but not from those folk that are stung into action by a negative and trouble making disposition.
    If someone is truly interested, no matter how difficult or simple a question may seem I will TRY to answer it because I will learn from them much indeed in doing so.

    They know the questions so here is their chance.

    Maranatha.
    Prophecy Countdown.
     
  5. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Prophecy Countdown,

    First, I want to point out this admission by PC.
    Here's what he wrote:

    The end of the age
    Some folk say, “yes but that’s what Peter said!!
    And I say yes he did.
    Well, they say , “how can he be wrong?
    So I say. Well,, it was the writer that had the time problem.
    It was the writers YEARNING that they ALL had for the second coming to COME ABOUT within their lifetime, it was their hope and prayer for it to be that way.
    ************************

    PC knows that is what Peter said, but just says he was wrong.Actually PC justr doesn't want to believe it, is my guess.

    PC says the writer of Hebrews is wrong as well,in Hebrews 9:26.

    If anyone wants to wade through the reams of post here you will find that PC tells us the gospel wasn't proclaimed in such a way as to qualify for the end to come. Colossians 1
    says this:

    23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    Seondly, PC uses the following argument throughout is 6482 pages of whatever these are pages of....

    Armageddon has not been fought yet.

    The last verses did not happen in 70AD so what was it you said?

    Where did every eye SEE HIM COME WITH GREAT POWER AND GLORY?

    This type of argument ids not biblical scripture argument. This is an argument that stems from PC's interpretation of what the bible says. How does he know the verses ofhe talked about haven't happened yet. They haven't happened the way he thinks they will, but he could have interpreted wrong.

    I want people to notice that in REV 4:1 etc John is taken 'in the spirit' to heaven. A great deal of what John's vision is takes place in Heaven.
    How much of an earthly record to you expect to see concerning events that take place in heaven?

    Now Justme LOOK at it! THAT DID NOT HAPPEN in 70AD.
    I wrote this:
    Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
    PC wrote this:
    Yes they WILL BE fulfilled at the time of HIS SECOND COMING.
    That is yet to happen.

    In the above Jesus takes the 12 to Jerusalem where prophecies WILL be fulfilled...PC says they will be fulfilled at his second coming, so PC is saying the second coming occured in Jerusalem while the 12 were still alive???????????I don't think so!!!!!!!!!I doubt that is what PC means, but it is a fine example of what mindset can to to PC. The sentence talks of ..in Jerusalem ...will be fulfilled.

    PC wrote this:I put it in to back up what I say above and ask that people again read Colossians 1:23

    Has the “END COME?”
    No, it has not.
    Why not?
    Because the Bible has not been preached ALL over the world.
    Hello! Justme. Wake up! The END COMES when the BIBLE GOES to ALL the WORLD.
    The end has NOT happened!!!

    So once again why did those inspired writers SAY IT DID? You have said they were wrong about the time...well, that means they weren't inspired or they would have got the right answer. I don't really care about your explanations, rationalizations and your feeble excuses to plead with us toi velieve asd you do, I want to know why an inspired writer would include this information if he didn't get the information from God.


    Justme trying to be foolishly clever.
    quote.
    “In the Book of PC, what is the first resurrection?”

    I don't think I'm foolishly clever, in fact it was probably dumb of me to expect you to answer this because you would know I could destroy another of your arguments if you answered correctly. Oh, well.

    So you have been looking for tangible proof from me and others for which no tangible proof exists. Most of Revelation takes place in the eternal heaven.

    You want me to show you proof of the establishment of the Kingdom of God and there is no tangible proof that I can give you. You want me to show you where people recorded the first time there was a presencse of Jesus Christ, I have no tangible evidence to give you. Jesus reigns in His eternal place of eternal peace no one has tangible proof to give you that it is so BECAUSE it is eternal and this is the biblical truth about things eternal:

    2 Cor 4:18
    So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

    Very little of what you ask about was ever seen because Jesus parousia and the goings of of Heaven are in the spiritual realm and unseen to us mortals...that is why they call it faith.

    If you really knew what the bible said you would have never asked some wierd questions that you did ask.

    Justme
     
  6. Wills

    Wills Member

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    You have explained your position well. With all these facts in mind, you would have

    a hard time convincing a third party, that God would show Jews (many reject Christ FOR THE SAME REASONS THE RABBIS do) any special favors if after all his miracles

    amidst them and after all these years of growth of Jesus's church and ministry, Jews
    and Rabbis still vehemently reject Christ.

    God is vastly more intelligent than us, and any special favors towards Jews after all this

    severe unbelief would be quite illogical. Be very careful, for Paul's words of a hardness coming into
    Israel until the fullness of the gentiles come in is very very DANGEROUS for we know not

    what level of fullness he refers to or when the said fullness in God's eyes, came to be.
     
  7. cbk

    cbk Guest

    +0
    But, to those who believe the 70th week of Daniel is still yet to be complete, then it becomes necessary for them to believe and hope that God will show favor (ie, opportunity and not 'special' protection) during the coming wrath.

    I am not one who believes that ALL Jews will receive 'special' protection or favor. I believe, as a whole, they will receive as much protection as anyone else during the wrath of God.

    I may not have full understanding on the arguement at hand. Sorry.

    But, if it be possible for Moses and Elijah to come back and, in Jerusalem, preach to ALL mankind to repent, then I would not be surprised. By doing so, Jews would not get special treatment.
     
  8. Wills

    Wills Member

    286
    +0
    Messianic

    This is not an argument, merely stating facts regarding the high percentage of Christ rejection in a group of people.

    1- Could you expand on what you mean by Jews not getting special treatment if Moses and Elijah were to come back and preach in Jerusalem as stated in your last sentence?

    2- If Moses and Elijah DID NOT come back, you seem to imply that then in that case Jews would get special treatment. What kind of special treatment would that be and in what way would God bestow that special treatment on the Jews.

    How would that be different from how God would treat others regarding point number 2 above.
     
  9. cbk

    cbk Guest

    +0
    1. I assume that a debate has started on IF Elijah and Moses are to come back. If so, then I believe that IF they come back then it is because they are to serve as witnesses and to prophecy and to attempt to have people repent. If this be so, then I believe the invitation to repentance is open to Jew and Gentile, alike. If they are not here to preach repentance, then Jew and Gentile, alike, are in deep DoDo.

    2. If they do not come back, then most definately the Jews will not get special treatment. If I implied otherwise, let this serve as my correction.

    But, what exactly is everyone debating in regards to Moses and Elijah?
     
  10. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Greetings.
    Justme quote.
    First, I want to point out this admission by PC.
    Here's what he wrote:

    PC quote.
    The end of the age
    Some folk say, “yes but that’s what Peter said!!
    And I say yes he did.
    Well, they say , “how can he be wrong?
    So I say. Well,, it was the writer that had the time problem.
    It was the writers YEARNING that they ALL had for the second coming to COME ABOUT within their lifetime, it was their hope and prayer for it to be that way.

    Justme says.
    PC knows that is what Peter said, but just says he was wrong.Actually PC justr doesn't want to believe it, is my guess.


    My reply.
    Please quote me in full or not at all. I said.
    “Peter was right about the event but not about the time.”
    Peter was looking up to heaven for the signs of the Lords return. Would he have bothered looking in anticipation if he had known that around 2000 years later, folk would be doing the same thing?
    Did Peter know how long it would take before Jesus returned? NO!


    Does Justme know how long before Jesus will return? NO!

    Did Daniel Know when all these things in the vision were to be fulfilled? NO.

    Does Jesus know when He will return? NO,

    Does the FATHER know when Jesus will return? YES!

    Here’s the Bible Proof of my above statements.

    Daniel 8: 27. And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king’s business; and I was ASTONISHED AT THE VISION, BUT NONE UNDERSTOOD it.

    Matt 25:13. Watch therefore, for YE KNOW NEITHER the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    Mark 13:32. But of that DAY and HOUR NO ONE KNOWS, NOT even the ANGELS in heaven, NOR THE SON, but ONLY the FATHER.

    Peter was keen to see the Lord again because he loved Him. Here are just a couple of things I said previously.
    Hasting means a hurrying, bringing closer, “the COMING OF THE DAY of GOD.”

    2 Peter 3: 12. LOOKING FOR and HASTING unto the COMING OF THE DAY OF GOD, wherein THE HEAVENS being on FIRE shall be DISSOLVED and the ELEMENTS shall MELT with FERVENT HEAT?

    Peter states CLEARLY THAT HE is LOOKING “for NEW HEAVENS and a NEW EARTH.”

    2 Peter 3: 13. Nevertheless WE, according to his promise, LOOK FOR NEW HEAVENS and a NEW EARTH, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    Come on folk ,,, It’s 2000 years later. Do we still look FOR OUR Lord in the clouds? Every now and then, I cast my eye to the heavens and ask God. Please return soon, amen.

    Peter was wrong about circumcision, and Paul had to put him right, so Peter like all of us, was not perfectly right as Justme would like us to believe.
    He/she forgets that item in my previous argument, and left it out because it proves my point, we are all human and not perfectly right all the time, just like Peter about the time.

    Justme’s quote.
    PC says the writer of Hebrews is wrong as well,in Hebrews 9:26.
    If anyone wants to wade through the reams of post here you will find that PC tells us the gospel wasn't proclaimed in such a way as to qualify for the end to come. Colossians 1says this:23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.


    My reply.
    Hebrews 9:26. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. To that Prophecy Countdown says, A BIG AMEN!
     
  11. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    My reply.
    I said the writer was RIGHT about the EVENT But, around 2000 years later hindsight tells me he was wrong about the time and you, J are wrong about 70AD as having anything to do with it.

    Yes, by all means wade through all the posts.. I use a lots of Bible and I don’t apologise for doing so. J makes sweeping statements without Bible backup, so I have to do the hard yards to clean up the misinformation that J puts out.

    Just look and see how much Bible J uses to back up her/his theories not much at all but will spend line after line on rhetoric.


    Did the Disciples believe that Christ was to set up His kingdom within their lifetimes?

    Every generation has hoped for the blessed salvation within their own time, as we do today so the writer would express himself in that way with that preconceived idea and obviously so would Paul, Peter and the others as believing that the “end of the age” was to be during their time.
    Was there anything wrong in that? No.

    Were they right about the TIME, “end of the age” which includes the seventh trumpet first resurrection?

    We are still here waiting for the prophecies to be fully completed some 2000 years later, do we wait in vain for the first Resurrection?

    Matthew 24:42. WATCH therefore: FOR YE KNOW NOT WHAT HOUR your LORD DOTH COME.
    Jesus said the above because 2 thousand or so years to Jesus is nothing .
    Jesus was looking to the populations that would still be waiting up until this present day and beyond, until the “great day of the Lord come!”

    J’s editorial quote.
    News flash!!!!!!!
    It is Prophecy Countdown's YEARNING for the events we've discussed to come about in his lifetime that has him locked in a mindset where he can't see the forest for the trees. (bible truth for the false religious doctrine)

    My reply.
    So this is what J calls “a false religion” when we wait for the second coming?
    Jesus said in Matthew 24:41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 WATCH THEREFORE: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    If Jesus TELLS us all “WATCH THEREFORE” AND Peter was recorded as saying “LOOK FOR NEW HEAVENS and a NEW EARTH.” BUT Justme says it is “THE FALSE RELIGIOUS DOCTREINE,”
    Well the Bible says the opposite to Justme!
    Who are you going to listen to, ST Justme or the Bible?

    I will stick with St Peter and the others, they were looking for the hastening 2000 years ago which has not yet came, but will.
    We should follow the Disciple’s zeal in faith. Nothing wrong with that unless you follow another doctrine.


    Justme’s quote.
    Seondly, PC uses the following argument throughout is 6482 pages of whatever these are pages of....

    “Armageddon has not been fought yet.”
    “The last verses did not happen in 70AD so what was it you said?”
    “Where did every eye SEE HIM COME WITH GREAT POWER AND GLORY?”
    This type of argument ids not biblical scripture argument. This is an argument that stems from PC's interpretation of what the bible says. How does he know the verses ofhe talked about haven't happened yet. They haven't happened the way he thinks they will, but he could have interpreted wrong.I want people to notice that in REV 4:1 etc John is taken 'in the spirit' to heaven. A great deal of what John's vision is takes place in Heaven.
    How much of an earthly record to you expect to see concerning events that take place in heaven?

    My reply.
    This last argument is based on Justme’s wilful ignorance of these subjects and on that bases she/he argues from a constricted church indoctrinated point.

    The quotes J uses are small parts of my statements. Which she/he claims are arguments based on my personal interpretation.
    Well. That I will disprove.
    I will list them and use Bible for backup.

    1. Armageddon has not been fought yet.
    I will use my own words to save time but PLEASE follow with your Bibles.

    EARTHLY SCENE.
    Daniel 7:2, 3 “four great beasts” come up diverse from each other. 4 powers.
    Daniel 7: 4. The first a lion has its eagles wings plucked off made to stand as a man and is then given a man’s heart.
    Daniel 7: 5. bear comes up 3 ribs in its mouth in an attacking stance. Told “kill much flesh.”
    Daniel 7: 6. A leopard comes up, four wings four heads given authority.
    Daniel 7: 7 Fourth beast, most terrible with ten horns.
    Daniel 7: 8. 10 horns, 3 are replaced by one stout horn speaking great things.

    HEAVENLY SCENE.
    Daniel 7: 9. “The Ancient of days sits.”
    Daniel 7: 10. Judgment was set, and the books were opened.
    Daniel 7: 11. The little horn keeps boasting UNTILL the beast is slain and thrown into the fire.
    Daniel 7: 12 The lion, bear, leopard, beast most terrible are left powerless for 15 months waiting.
    Daniel 7: 13 Whilst these beast powers are waiting. Jesus is brought to the Father.

    EARTHLY SCENE.
    It is at the time of the last four powers that Jesus sets up His kingdom.

    Daniel 7: 14. Jesus is given back HIS authority “And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”


    Daniel 7:15 Daniel is troubled by the vision.

    Daniel 7: 16. Daniel listens to the two speaking in his vision and asks one of them to tell him, what it all means? So the angel let’s Daniel know the interpretation.


    Daniel 7: 17. The angel says. The four beasts that come up are Kings.

    Daniel 7: 18. The angel says that “the Saints shall posses the kingdom forever.”

    The above last verse is at the time of the end when the Saints posses the kingdom, that DID NOT HAPPEN IN 70AD.
    So not all the prophecies are fulfilled yet by Jesus only those concerning His first advent.

    Now I will go to Revelation then switch back to Daniel for biblical verification that the two are one story.

    We will start reading Revelation just after 1335 days when God’s children receive their promised blessing. see Daniel 12:12.
    The beast will be thrown into the fire as we studied in Daniel 7: 11. This time we will read the same story from Revelation.

    Serious Bible student Christians understand that the time of the tribulation is for a period of around 3 ½ years, and fits into the “2300 evening and morning” period spoken of in Daniel 8:14.
    So before I start with Revelation 19 let me verify my last statement about the “3 ½ years” with Bible backup.
    At the end of the vision being repeated, Daniel asks how long?

    EARTHLY SCENE.
    Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a TIME,TIMES, and an HALF; and when HE SHALL have accomplished to SCATTER the power of THE HOLY PEOPLE, ALL THESE things SHALL BE FINISHED.

    When God’s people’s “power” is scattered.” Then our rescue is put into action when Michael stands.
    Daniel 12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, every one that shall be found written IN THE BOOK.
    These are the rescued, in Heaven speaking.
    Please follow with your Bibles.

    HEAVENLY SCENE.
    Rev 19:1. “Many people in Heaven saying,” “Alleluia; Salvation, glory, honour, power, unto the Lord our God:”
    Rev 19:2. His Judgements are right. He has avenged His servants blood.
    Rev 19: 3.Smoke rises from the city that killed the prophets and Saints.
    Rev 19: 4.Twenty four Elders and four beasts worship God.
    Rev 19: 5 A voice from the throne says, “Praise our God, all ye his servants,”
    Rev 19: 6: Many voices of a great multitude saying. For the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
     
  12. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    The Lamb is FOUND WORTHY and given back, by the Father, His full position of POWER, GLORY, AUTHORITY, HONOUR, His people who are standing in Heaven are praising the Father and Jesus for doing so.

    EARTHLY SCENE.
    This will happen after 1290 days (see Dan12:11) after we see the abomination of desolation sitting where he ought not and referred to by Jesus when asked about His second coming and the end of the world. See question about, “what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” In Matt 24:3. Then the answer in Matt 24.15, Mk 13:14. His Holy people will be scattered mentioned in Daniel 12:7 for 3 ½ years. Which is verified in Rev 12:14. See also Matt 24:15 to 51.

    HEAVENLY SCENE.
    Rev 19: 7. They now speak of the marriage of the Lamb which has come with the His wife making herself ready.
    Rev 19: 8. “She is arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.”
    The Saints are the redeemed. Now that happens at the SECOND ADVENT and has nothing to do with 70AD.

    Rev 19: 9. The Saints gain the promised blessing, Dan 12:12.
    after 1335 days. “Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.”

    What blessing and how long and when will Daniel be given his blessing WITH THE REST OF God’s people?
    The plain answer, read it, at the wedding of the Lamb.

    Rev 19: 9. “And he saith unto me, Write, BLESSED are they WHICH ARE CALLED unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the LAMB. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.”

    This matches Daniel’s below verse

    Daniel 12:12. “BLESSED is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 13“But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise TO YOUR INHERITANCE AT THE END OF THE DAYS.”
    Repeated just for Justme.
    Rev 19: 9. “And he saith unto me, Write, BLESSED are they WHICH ARE CALLED unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the LAMB. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.”
    When are they called?
    EARTHLY SCENE.
    At the last trump the dead in Christ are raised with the living chosen.
    1 Corinthians 15 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.
    Luke 17:34. I tell you, in that night there shall be two in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35Two shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36Two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    The last trumpet is blown in Rev 11:11 to 15, when the two witnesses are raised at trumpet 7 from death!
    Which Justme says REV 11 is a done deal back in 70AD.
    Next verse.
    Rev 19:10 ”the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

    HEAVENLY SCENE.

    Rev 19:11. He that is ”Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    Rev 19: 12, 13.Jesus on a white horse, in all His power and glory with His Name known only by Himself.
    Rev 19: 14. HIS vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD.
    .
    John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the WORD WAS GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD. 2The SAME was in the BEGINNING with GOD. 3All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made. 4In HIM was life; and the life was the LIGHT OF MEN.

    Isaiah 46:9. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.

    EARTHLY SCENE
    John 14:10. Do you not believe that I AM IN THE FATHER, and the FATHER IN ME? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own but the FATHER who DWELLS IN ME DOES THE WORKS.

    Second part of Rev 19:14. The redeemed Saints follow Jesus back to Earth.
    “And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.”
    Now we know why the lion, bear, leopard, 4th beast are waiting for 15 months. Dan 7:12.

    Rev 19:15. As they head back to Earth with Jesus, a mention is made as to what He will do to the nations still waiting within the 15 month period.
    Rev 19:16.The King of kings Lord of lords is written on His thigh.

    Rev 19: 17. Reaching the heavens above the Earth God calls on all fowl to feed on flesh.
    Rev 19:18 They will eat all types of flesh from kings to the common folk on Earth waiting to be put to the sword.
    Revelation 19:19.20 matches Daniel 7:11.
    We have just studied that the Saints are promised a blessing after the 1335 days mentioned in Daniel 12:12. This prophecy is to be fulfilled in Rev 19: 9. After the tribulation, after the 1335 days when they will attend the Lambs wedding in Heaven receiving the promised blessing.
    Jesus and His army have come back to Earth for war. ARMAGEDDON.

    Rev 19:19, 20. And I saw the BEAST, and the KINGS OF THE EARTH, and THEIR ARMIES, GATHERED together TO MAKE WAR against HIM THAT SAT ON THE HORSE, and against HIS ARMY.

    20 And the BEAST WAS TAKEN, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone.

    Same story folks. After the judgment the righteous receive their blessing in Heaven then ride back to Earth for the Battle of Armageddon, all this will be done within 15 months..

    Daniel 7:10. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: THE JUDGMENT WAS SET, and the BOOKS WERE OPENED. 11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even TILL THE BEAST WAS SLAIN, and his BODY destroyed, and GIVEN TO THE BURNING FLAMES.

    What happens to the remnant powers, the Lion, Bear, Leopard, fourth beast?
    Rev 19: 21.And THE REMNANT were SLAIN with the SWORD of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and ALL THE FOWLS were filled with their flesh

    In the following verses of Revelation we see the angel Abaddon who controls the Bottomless pit, who was introduced in Rev 9:11 back again to deal with Satan after Armageddon.
    Revelation 20:1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the KEY OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT and a great chain in his hand.
    2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season


    I am sorry it takes so long but I can’t simply take one piece (verse) of the jigsaw puzzle (Bible) and explain it, I need all of the verses (pieces) being brought together, for the bigger picture, that’s how I read the Bible.
    The above verses in Daniel and Revelation did not happen in 70AD.

    Justme re-quoted me.
    The last verses did not happen in 70AD so what was it you said?
    Where did every eye SEE HIM COME WITH GREAT POWER AND GLORY?
    Now Justme LOOK at it! THAT DID NOT HAPPEN in 70AD.

    Justme quote.
    I wrote this:
    Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.

    My reply below was given on the bases that the prophecies of His first coming were to be fulfilled and they were, but not the prophecies of His second advent because they were not to be fulfilled until His second coming.

    Justme quotes me again
    PC wrote this:
    Yes they WILL BE fulfilled at the time of HIS SECOND COMING.
    That is yet to happen.

    Justme quote.
    In the above Jesus takes the 12 to Jerusalem where prophecies WILL be fulfilled...PC says they will be fulfilled at his second coming, so PC is saying the second coming occured in Jerusalem while the 12 were still alive???????????
    I don't think so!!!!!!!!!I doubt that is what PC means, but it is a fine example of what mindset can to to PC. The sentence talks of ..in Jerusalem ...will be fulfilled.

    My reply.
    Stop making up ridiculous arguments in your own mind then trying to apply them to me, and on that ridiculous bases start arguing a point.
    The prophecies were fulfilled concerning His first advent, not those concerning His second.
    The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost to a 120 in the upper room. NOT TO ALL FLESH.
     
  13. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Justme seems so blind to the Bible she/he forgets the second outpouring of the Holy Spirit which DID NOT HAPPEN AT PENTICOST because the BIBILE tells me that by saying it will happen twice and at the second outpouring it will be given to “ALL FLESH” and a small number of 120 in the upper room is not “ALL FLESH.”


    Not until everyone on earth is given an opportunity, will He come when the Bible is taken to every kindred and tongue.
    He sees that every body gets a fair chance. To decide to be for Him or against Him. We know that.

    We haven't done all that God would want us do in this work.
    There are millions of people who have never ever heard the name of, Jesus Christ.
    Our Church and others have missions throughout many lands but the work is limited.
    There may be some twenty languages spoken in any one country but the missions may only be working in one of them.
    In India there are a thousand languages.
    There are millions, who are illiterate. Put a book in their hands and they wouldn't know what to do with it.
    So there are tremendous obstacles to finish the work of spreading the Gospel by the written word or verbally.
    Church numbers are diminishing.
    We have to face reality .
    What we need is power from on high.

    We need to have an understanding of things written in the Bible that we have not previously understood.
    We need POWER FROM ON HIGH. Let me explain.
    After forty days from His resurrection and just before His ascension
    The Lord said to His church in Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

    Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    They were to wait until the power to witness came. Now the Holy Spirit did not ad to their knowledge. They knew the teachings of Jesus and how He lived. They knew His exceeding kindness. His character was unlike anybody they had ever met. That is why Peter could say in Matthew 16:16 Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    Now they also knew about His miracles, When He had resurrected a widows son.
    And Peter James and John saw Him raise the daughter of the Synagogue ruler.
    Luke 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare [him] stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
    Luke 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.
    Mark 5:37 And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James.
    Mark 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
    Mark 5:40 And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying.

    Mark 5:41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise.

    Mark 5:42 And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was [of the age] of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.
    They were there when Lazarus came walking out of his tomb.
    He was bound round and round and round and he must have taken all the movement he could muster to walk. They saw him come out. There was no question in their minds. They saw it all.

    But the Lord said tarry in Luke 24:49 The Holy Spirit did not ad to their knowledge. But the Holy Spirit did ad what the Scripture calls in Acts 1:8 power to witness
    An ability to communicate.

    Witness the Apostle Paul he said.
    1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
    1 Corinthians 2: 4and5 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
    So the apostle was denying that the dependents of the work was on human eloquence. It wasn't. It needed power from on high.
    So when the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost He did not ad information but added a differential to make the work of the apostle's and the one hundred and twenty effective.

    Now why am I saying all of this? It is because I have to extrapolate what happened back there down to our day.
    We are not going to go anywhere. We are not going to finish the work.
    Not until there is that same power that came on the day of Pentecost, could the infant church have left Jerusalem let alone spread across the world.
    It is foolish to try to do God's work without God's power.
    So the need of the church today to finish the work. Is the same need as seen back there in the beginning of the work. And that is the power the presence of the Holy Spirit.
    Now we talk about the EARLY RAIN and the LATTER RAIN. The FIRST RAIN OR OUTPOURING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS ON THE DAY OF PENTICOST.
    Now as the EARLY RAIN started the work of the church, the LATTER RAIN will finish it.

    But WE ARE NOT SEEING EARLY RAIN RESULTS. Not the kind of results they had.

    BE PATIENT.
    Bible backup.
    James 5:7 BE PATIENT therefore, brethren, UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD. Behold, the husbandman WAITETH for the precious FRUIT OF THE EARTH, and hath LONG PATIENCE for it, UNTIL HE RECEIVE the EARLY RAIN AND LATTER RAIN.

    Now, how clear is that, it wont happen until the latter rain. The first rain, Pentecost. The latter rain at “the time of the end.” When the word will be taken to all the world.

    The fruit of the earth are the saved or harvest but that will not happen until the early and LATTER RAIN at the time of the end.

    The only difference between the early rain and LATTER RAIN IS QUANTITY. The early rain had a quality about it.
    That will be exactly duplicated in the LATTER RAIN but, ABUNDANTLY .

    Bible backup.
    Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the FORMER RAIN MODERATELY, and HE WILL CAUSE to come down for you THE RAIN, the FORMER RAIN, and the LATTER RAIN in the first.

    Joel is not just talking about the first or “former rain” at Pentecost given moderately. He is talking about the first and second or “latter rain” because he talks about the “spirit upon all flesh.”

    Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass AFTERWARDS, [that] I will POUR OUT my spirit UPON ALL FLESH; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
    Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

    As the early rain was given moderately so the latter rain will be given abundantly. “To all flesh.”
    What we read in acts is but a sample a few drops compared to what we are going to see in the LATTER RAIN.
    What I have begun to do is read acts not as history but as prophecy and it's thrilling.
    On top of that, this book is called the acts of the Apostles it should really be called the acts of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles.
    What we are really reading in acts is how God's church properly behaves when the church is under the GOVERNANCE of GOD.

    The END COMES when the BIBLE GOES to ALL the WORLD.
    The end has NOT happened!!!

    Justme quote.
    So once again why did those inspired writers SAY IT DID? You have said they were wrong about the time...well, that means they weren't inspired or they would have got the right answer. I don't really care about your explanations, rationalizations and your feeble excuses to plead with us toi velieve asd you do, I want to know why an inspired writer would include this information if he didn't get the information from God.

    My reply.
    Let me make this clear. From the last Bible verses quoted, it is clear that the end will not come until the latter outpouring of the Holy Spirit. There are two outpourings one has happened, “the former at Pentecost and the “latter rain” at “the time of the end” is yet to happen


    Justme re-quotes me.
    “Justme trying to be foolishly clever.”
    “In the Book of PC, what is the first resurrection?”

    Justme replies, quote.
    I don't think I'm foolishly clever, in fact it was probably dumb of me to expect you to answer this because you would know I could destroy another of your arguments if you answered correctly. Oh, well.

    My reply.
    To answer Your personal imaginings about a non existent book that only exists in your head. Would be a waste of my time.
    After making this “PC book” thing up you then claim you could destroy “another of MY arguments,” what argument? It’s all in your head!
    You may need counselling on these matters.

    Justme, quote.
    So you have been looking for tangible proof from me and others for which no tangible proof exists. Most of Revelation takes place in the eternal heaven.

    My reply.
    I haven’t sought “tangible proof from you.” This is all the imaginings of your own making.
    Running out of arguments and making up your own stories so that you can “destroy” them?
    Is this what you think its about?
    I thought it was about proving the Bible right not about your pride being defended.
    Is that why you go off at the bit and start losing control of your grammar and making up things when you get upset?
     
  14. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Justme quote.
    You want me to show you proof of the establishment of the Kingdom of God and there is no tangible proof that I can give you. You want me to show you where people recorded the first time there was a presencse of Jesus Christ, I have no tangible evidence to give you. Jesus reigns in His eternal place of eternal peace no one has tangible proof to give you that it is so BECAUSE it is eternal and this is the biblical truth about things eternal:


    My reply.
    I have never asked you for the things you are suggesting please stick with the facts and stop arguing with your OWN thoughts from your own imaginings.

    Justme quote.
    2 Cor 4:18
    So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.


    My reply
    Your last remark is an application.
    2 Cor 4:18. “While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.”
    We look for God, unseen by mortal men in all His glory. To do that would kill us. The things of this Earth are temporal. So we should not be a part of its present state of sin
    So your miss-application is false because that is not the intent of the above verse.
    Your application ignores the fact that "every eye shall see Him."

    Justme quote.
    Very little of what you ask about was ever seen because Jesus parousia and the goings of of Heaven are in the spiritual realm and unseen to us mortals...that is why they call it faith.

    My reply.
    Faith? Did the soldiers that killed Christ have faith? Yet Jesus said that they will see Him coming.
    Rev 1:7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    These things were not seen in 70AD because they did not happen remember Bible Justme, Bible!

    Revelation 1:7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and they also which pierced him: and ALL KINDREDS of the EARTH SHALL WAIL because of HIM. EVEN, SO AMEN.

    Boy o boy, are you in for a shock Justme!!!
    You have just admitted not understanding the mystery of God, “as being “intangible” and I agree.
    Why do I agree?
    Bible.
    Rev 10:7. But IN THE DAYS of the voice OF THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he SHALL begin to SOUND, the MYSTERY OF GOD should BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    The mystery of God as you have stated as being “intangible” is proof that the seventh angels trumpet was not blown back then in 70AD so Revelation 11 is future. If it were in the past, there would be no mystery of God.
    You have outwitted yourself and all by yourself. “At the last trump the dead in Christ shall rise.” “Then the mystery of God will be finished.”
    The Bible wins again.
    GOODNIGHT JUSTME!! Turn the lights out on your way out, thank you!!

    Justme quote.
    If you really knew what the bible said you would have never asked some wierd questions that you did ask.
    Justme

    My reply.
    Silence is golden Justme, because you have firmly put your own argument, outside in he cold.


    “WEIRD QUSETIONS?
    Well for your information some of those questions were asked by Daniel when he asked “how long” and he was no dummy and was not weird.
    You are so keen trying to “destroy another of MY arguments,” and make a victory point, for prides sake, you have forgotten why we are here it is to discuss the Bible.
    In your fervour to prove your theory you forgot to use the Bible as your guide and went against the very Bible itself.

    You should be careful and control your remarks because Daniel was a servant of the Lord along with the angel Palmini and Jesus used the words “time, times and a half” and swore to these periods that they were of truth and the word of God. Those and other time periods spoken of by Gabriel, Palmini, and Daniel along with our Lord are the periods I have included in my questions and are all based on the testimony of Jesus which is prophecy.

    Daniel 12:7. And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
    All these times are related with the period of the 1290 days concerning the abomination of desolations spoken of by Daniel.
    Stick to the biblical argument, Justme not made up philosophical things that you think are right.
    Also if my postings are too long, then please don’t read them and stop complaining.
    If you don’t agree with them don’t read them, nobody is forcing you.

    PC
     
  15. Arc

    Arc Lover of the Truth

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    Just to add to what "Justme" said;

    In Matthew 23;
    32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
    33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
    34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
    35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
    36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

    Wouldn't "all the righteous blood shed on earth" coming down on Jerusalem (this generation) constitute a "great tribulation"? The guilt of all blood shed on earth since the first murder ever comitted till the end of the generation Jesus was speaking (70 AD) was to fall upon the generation Jesus was speaking to!

    Then Jesus said;
    Matt 23:38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

    Luke 21:20 says;
    "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

    This already happened. It may happen again but the prophecy directly pointed to 70 AD.

    " He is told by Jesus to measure the Temple of God, that is the one that will sit on the mount at the sides of the North, the mount of the congregation in Jerusalem. But. do not measure the daily that is going to be given to the Gentiles 42 months."

    Very good point. How do you reconcile that with:

    Luke 21:24 Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. If the trampling started in or about 70 AD, then it would have ended 42 months later, correct?


    And finally, if the antichrist is the one who "confirms a covenant" then what covenant was Christ confirming;

    Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
     
  16. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Arc, quote.
    Just to add to what "Justme" said;

    In Matthew 23;
    32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
    33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
    34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
    35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
    36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

    My reply.
    This Generation?
    Which one?
    It means all the generations that killed the prophets.
    Prophets have been killed over many centuries and by many generations.
    Bible example of the term “generation.”
    The book of THE GENERATION OF JESUS CHRIST, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; 3And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; 4And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; 5And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; 6And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; 7And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; 8And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; 9And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; 10And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; 11And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: 12And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; 13And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; 14And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; 15And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; 16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. 17So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

    That is what the Bible means as “generation.”

    Arc, quote.
    Wouldn't "all the righteous blood shed on earth" coming down on Jerusalem (this generation) constitute a "great tribulation"? The guilt of all blood shed on earth since the first murder ever comitted till the end of the generation Jesus was speaking (70 AD) was to fall upon the generation Jesus was speaking to!

    My reply.
    You say.
    “Wouldn't "all the righteous blood shed on earth" “Jesus was speaking (70 AD)”
    One thing wrong with that theory is the fact that NOT ALL THE RIGHTEOUS BLOOD HAD BEEN SHED BEFORE 70AD.
    Jesus was Not speaking of 70AD He never ever mentions 70AD only preterists do that.

    Arc, quote.
    Then Jesus said;
    Matt 23:38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
    Luke 21:20 says;
    "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
    This already happened. It may happen again but the prophecy directly pointed to 70 AD.

    My reply.
    The above did not happen in 70AD. It was only surrounded by ONE ARMY, that was the ROMAN ARMY!
    1. So far we DO NOT HAVE ALL THE RIGHTEIOUS BLOOD SHED BEFORE 70AD.
    1. WE DO NOT HAVE ARMIES, ONLY ONE ARMY.

    A Bible verse out of context by miss reading it, is not prophecy.
    We must read “line upon line upon line.” And “precept upon precept upon precept.”
    Luke 21:20.The “ARMIES” of the Gentiles will take over Jerusalem and this next quoted prophecy starts off from the time they occupy the city Jerusalem.
    It is a completely different story from that of 70AD.

    Luke 21:21. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the COUNTRIES enter thereinto.

    Luke 21:22. For these be the days of vengeance, that ALL THINGS which are WRITTEN may be FULFILLED.
    So Luke is talking about the same story as John in Revelation.
    Now let’s see if ALL WAS FULFILLED.

    Rev 11: 2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    The city is only given over to the Gentiles for 3 ½ years.
    You seem to ignore the time periods clearly indicated in prophecy when applying it to 70AD which is an application.

    The Roman army was in Jerusalem a lot longer than 42 months from 70AD..
    The Roman Hadrian had to deal with the Bar Cochba war with Israel (Simeon bar Kosiba, 'Simon son of the star') (d. 135

    Rev 11: 3.And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    When was it recorded that the two witnesses, witnessed for 1260 days?
    When did they start and finish?

    Rev 11: 4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    Were their enemies killed by them?
    Where is that recorded by Josephus in 70AD?

    Rev 11: 5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

    Was the rain stopped for 1260 days around 3 ½ years how does that fit into 70AD?

    Rev 11: 6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

    Where is it recorded that the beast kills them in 70AD?

    Rev 11: 7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    Where is it recorded that they died in 70AD?

    Rev 11: 8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
     
  17. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    The next verse is not talking of 70AD because it involves nations kindreds and tongues that see their dead bodies, where was that recorded by Josephus or by others?

    Rev 11: 9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

    “They that dwelt upon the Earth” that means the nations that were upon the EARTH were tormented by them. That did not happen in 70AD!

    Rev 11: 10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

    When were they raised in 70AD after being dead 3 ½ days?

    Rev 11: 11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

    Where did God call them up in 70AD?

    Rev 11: 12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

    What earthquake in 70AD?

    Rev 11: 13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    Rev 11: 14. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
    The seventh trumpet is when?
    1Col 15:52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    The last trump is the call at the first RESURRECTION. That was NOT in 70 AD.
    Arc, why haven’t you read my previous statements on these matters?
    It would save me a lot of repetitious work.

    Rev 11: 15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    The seventh trumpet was not sounded because the mystery of God is STILL with us.

    Rev 10:7. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


    Rev 11: 16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

    Rev 11: 17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


    How do you explain the following verse being at 70AD?
    Rev 11: 18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


    My Bible explanation of Rev 11:2.re-quoted by Arc.
    " He is told by Jesus to measure the Temple of God, that is the one that will sit on the mount at the sides of the North, the mount of the congregation in Jerusalem. But. do not measure the daily that is going to be given to the Gentiles 42 months."

    Arc, question.
    Very good point. How do you reconcile that with:

    Luke 21:24 Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. If the trampling started in or about 70 AD, then it would have ended 42 months later, correct?

    My reply.
    Exactly my point, thank you. If you had read on you would have found the answer, of Luke 21:24.in the same story of Rev 11:

    Luke21:24. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled

    The Gentiles are only given 42 months. It is God at the seventh trumpet who raises the dead when He comes.

    Luke21: 25. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

    The great day of the Lord and first resurrection did not happen in 70AD. When He ushers in His kingdom.
    None of this happened in 70AD.

    Luke21:26. Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    When were the powers of heaven shaken in70AD?
    Look at the next verse and try and tell me that that has anything to do with 70AD. It does not!
    Luke21:27. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    Now for a very quick rerun of events.
    Rev 11: 2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    Rev 11: 3.And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    Rev 11: 7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    Rev 11: 11. And AFTER THREE DAYS AND AN HALF the Spirit of LIFE FROM GOD ENETERED THEM, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

    Rev 11: 12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

    Rev 11: 15. And the SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign FOR EVER AND EVER.

    Rev 11 is all “time of the end” speak.


    Arc. quote.
    And finally, if the antichrist is the one who "confirms a covenant" then what covenant was Christ confirming;
    Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

    My reply.
    There are two covenants the true and the false you have just quoted the true and I thank you and will add a little.

    Hebrews 8:8. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    Hebrews 8:10. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    Hebrews 13:20. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT.
    Romans 11:27. For this is MY COVENANT unto them, when I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.

    Now I will quote the false covenant and use Rev11 and show something interesting.
    Some think that the following is speaking of Jesus and HIS covenant but when we read the following verses right to there end we see differently.
    We must ask ourselves these questions about the covenant of Christ.
    Did Jesus confirm a covenant for one week only? No.
    Was the covenant with Jesus everlasting? Yes.
    Would a fake covenant be similar to the original, to try and fool people?

    Daniel 9:27 And he shall CONFIRM a COVENANT with many FOR ONE WEEK: and in the MIDST OF THE WEEK he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the OVERSPREADING of the ABOMINATION he shall make it DESOLATE, even until the CONSUMMATION, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    I find it interesting that the two witnesses are killed and are left dead in the street for 3 ½ days so that would mean they die in the middle of 7 days. How many days in a week and what happens in the middle of the week?
    3 ½ days, later they are raised.


    Psalms 37:38. But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. 39But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble. 40And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

    Maranatha.

    Prophecy Countdown.
     
  18. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    Hi PC,

    The unseen is eternal....

    The eternal is not visible to mortal/living/physical/natural/ me and you ..as we live THIS lifetime/ ..to our eyes we can't see the ETERNAL...

    Do you understand this or not.

    2 Cor 4
    18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

    Paul says:
    17For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.

    He is talking about the earthly temporary troubles because there ain't no troubles in Heaven.

    So eternal things are unseen to the physically living.

    Again ..eternal things are unseen...
    Do you understand this? Or show the people why Paul is wrong in saying this this way if you prefer.

    Justme
     
  19. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Greetings, Justme.

    Justme quote.
    “The unseen is eternal....”

    My reply.
    The unseen are also the things that haven’t happened yet.
    Things like the 2nd advent, yet to occur with a loud noise. The Christ and the
    Ancient of days appearing above the Earth at trumpet seven when the dead in
    Christ shall rise..

    1 Corinthians 15:52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Rev 10:7. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    Revelation 22:4. And they shall SEE HIS FACE; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

    At the moment in our state of sin, we can’t look upon God’s face, even though we have been promised so, in the last verse.

    Exodus 33:20. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall NO MAN SHALL SEE ME, AND LIVE.
    21. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
    22. And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
    23. And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

    So our eternal God is visible and to look upon Him in ALL His glory would kill us.

    Can evil men see God? Yes, but they will die as a result, so they will try not to look upon God at His second coming.

    Rev 6:16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and HIDE US from the FACE OF HIM that SITTETH ON THE THRONE, AND from the WRATH OF THE LAMB:

    When will men see God? At the second advent.

    Rev 6: 17. For the GREAT DAY of HIS WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Joel 2:11. And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD is GREAT and VERY TERRIBLE; and who can abide it?

    Can God be invisible? Yes.
    John 20:26. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, THE DOORS BEING SHUT, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

    Jesus mysteriously appeared standing right in the middle of them, in the flesh, even though the doors were locked..
    Flesh can be moved from one place to another in an instant by the Spirit of the Lord.
    Flesh made invisible then visible.
    Acts 8:39. And when they were come up out of the water, the SPIRIT OF THE LORD CAUGHT AWAY PHILIP, that the eunuch SAW HIM NO MORE: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40. But PHILIP WAS FOUND at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

    Justme. quote.
    The eternal is not visible to mortal/living/physical/natural/ me and you ..as we live THIS lifetime/ ..to our eyes we can't see the ETERNAL...
    Do you understand this or not.
    2 Cor 4
    18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
    Paul says:
    17For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.

    Justme, quote.
    "He is talking about the earthly temporary troubles because there ain't no troubles in Heaven. So eternal things are unseen to the physically living."
    "Again ..eternal things are unseen...
    Do you understand this? Or show the people why Paul is wrong in saying this this way if you prefer."

    My reply.
    I understand what the Bible says and also understand what you are saying, and I see there is a vast difference between you and the Bible.
    You state that I should “show why Paul is wrong on this?”

    Why should I do that?

    Paul is right.

    However I do not agree with the way you, make an application of what Paul says by applying the words “the invisible God” (Col 1:15) to the second coming of the Lamb and God as being “invisible” or the things prophetic as being “intangible."
    These coming events of God are not allegorical.

    That is a personal application by you and out of context. The Bible DOES NOT SAY, (the quietly pleasant and gentle sun filled day of the Lord.)

    Preterists argued that ALL the heavenly signs and wonders happened in 70AD but when questioned and scrutinising their witness Flavius Josephus,’ writings it became obvious to the serious Bible student that the signs and wonders concerning “the time of the end” were NOT fulfilled at that time at all.
    Because the majority of signs being unfulfilled, proved the myth of the preterist’s 70AD theory, and now realising this, the preterists, trying to sound plausible, say they are “spiritual, invisible” events regarding not only 70AD but the second coming also, as the need arises.

    When you Justme, can’t explain the complete fulfilment of prophecy in 70AD you use the term Spiritual as meaning invisible to explain why these events were not seen “being fulfilled in 70AD” you and it seems your church also, completely ignore the time limitations applied to each prophetic event’s duration.
    You then call the questions, posed by me about these specific times, even enquired of by Daniel, as being “weird.”
     
  20. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Preterists use the term unseen as meaning invisible.
    The problem I have with that usage, is when it is applied to His second advent.

    They make the God of heaven and the terrible day of God, invisible permanently, at their convenience when it suits their argument, yet visible when Josephus says anything even mildly or remotely indicating prophecy, which is even a forced reading of Josephus it's just not reasonable and is biased. :cry:

    The word, unseen, does not mean invisible.
    Knowing that, we CAN see God from the previously quoted verses, and we can see that the day of the Lord is “terrible” for the sinner, and being concerned, Joel asks “who can abide it?” We must ask why does Justme say the following?

    Justme quote.
    “You want me to show you proof of the establishment of the Kingdom of God and there is no tangible proof that I can give you. You want me to show you where people recorded the first time there was a presencse of Jesus Christ, I have no tangible evidence to give you. Jesus reigns in His eternal place of eternal peace no one has tangible proof to give you that it is so BECAUSE it is eternal and this is the biblical truth about things eternal:”

    My reply.
    Preterists are taught that it all happened back then and to try and make their argument stick they start twisting the intent of the Bible regards the “noise” and “terror” and “fear”, of “the terrible day of the Lord..” So they make up myths, that it is all “unseen, and spiritual.”

    It’s not right and I don’t abide by it. :(

    It denies the very terror that God will become to the Sinner and dulls the senses of the turning sinner to the urgency of repentance and salvation through wisdom in realising the angels message to fear God. (respect God)
    Rev 14:7. Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    This is not a game of trotting out philosophy and winning points,, this is deadly serious. God is not talking invisible horror or terror on the day of God.

    Corinthians 5:11. KNOWING therefore the TERROR of the LORD, WE PERSUADE MEN; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

    Justme’s Quote.
    He is talking about the earthly temporary troubles because there ain't no troubles in Heaven.

    My reply.
    Well Justme, again I must disagree. The Bible says there IS trouble in Heaven, he is called Satan and he will fight using his angels against Michael the Arcangel, and His angels will WIN THE WAR IN HEAVEN. When Satan with his angels loses the war in heaven and is booted out, down to Earth. Satan is going to give us a taste of hell.

    Rev 12:7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

    Rev 12:8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    Rev 12:9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Rev 12:12. “Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because HE KNOWS THAT HE HAS A SHORT TIME.”

    The last verse is about the TIME, which is to do with the “2300 evening and morning,” “1260 days,” “1290 days,” “1335 days,” and the, “It shall be for a time, times and a half,” spoken of by Jesus.


    One of he above times is a limit concerning with the abomination of desolation setting up for 1290 days spoken of by Daniel and is not given as idle talk but for very sound reasons.

    The 1335 days are included and are concerned with the promise of our salvation, I must all the periods very seriously indeed.

    A time of tribulation for those that live through it. When they bury their loved ones they will at least know, that it is only days before they will be together again being gathered up, now that is faith.

    Maranatha. :clap:

    Prophecy Countdown.
     
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