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Abomination of desolation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Rafael, Jun 26, 2003.

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  1. Wills

    Wills Member

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    You left out one very huge group of people. The hundreds of millions of villagers, pastoral farm folk who lived in towns and villages all over earth and died without receiving the gospel as well as the millions of Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, non religious villagers, other non christians poor folk ALIVE NOW spread in villages and towns all over the world. Huge efforts have been made to spread the word but even with latter day future broadcasts etc, Jesus will return with millions of such people still not aware of His Gospel. THERE WILL be major gospel crusades , yes.

    During the bloody battle between Heaven and Antichrist, many of these non Christians
    will not die, in fact multitudes of these villagers may not even be aware of what is going
    initially during the 2nd advent.

    WHAT WILL HAPPEN to the millions of Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, non religious villagers- NON CHRISTIANS who DO NOT DIE during the 2ND ADVENT even after the vials etc? Of course some will perish in earthquakes, floods, etc but NOT ALL. WHAT happens to these NON BELIEVERS after the 1st resurrection and during the 1000 year reign of Christ?
     
  2. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    Hi Wills,

    I have said a 1000 times, if a person KNOWS the timeframe of the Great tribulation they have made the irst gigantic leap to underastanding the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.

    You said....

    Daniel as part of the REST OF THE DEAD is raised at the time of the great tribulation..................

    Exactly.

    You said........
    that is in our near future
    *****************

    Okay, let's say Dec 25, 2003.

    How long do you consider this great tribulation to last..3 1/2 years or 7 years, actually it doesn't matter, let's say 3 years.

    You wrote:

    We are expecting the tribulation under the antichrist in the near future, NOT AFTER 1000 YEARS after the second advent.
    *****************
    Well, actually WE aren't ,you are. But you're point is that the great tribulation can not happen AFTER the 1000 year reign with Christ.

    Let's see.

    The tribulation takes place before the second advent...parousia.

    You said:
    CHRIST's 1000 years does NOT END WITH TRIBULATION....

    The 1000 year reign must end at the parousia because of Revelation 20:5
    5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

    You stated that Daniel is part of the REST of the DEAD which I would agree with.

    You wrote:

    Tribulation takes place BEFORE THE 2ND ADVENT, HENCE DANIEL is raised with the rest of the dead during the TRIBULATION which is before the 1000 years.
    ********************

    No, I don't think so. The 1000 years would have to be BEFORE the great tribulation. The opposite of what you stated.

    You wrote:
    It is impossible for the tribulation mentioned IN DANIEL 12 to take place after Christ is controlling the Earth after 1000 years.

    Well, I would think that the bible said it happens that way.

    Rev 20:5 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

    There it is and Daniel whose is pat of the rest of the dead was raised at he great tribulation AFTER the 1000 years and before parousia or at parousia.

    Boy, it's easy to trip over the befores and afters here!!!!!!!!!!!

    Justme
     
  3. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

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    Hi PC,

    You wrote:
    Do we read it like this?
    Rev 20:5. “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection?”

    This does not make sense, seeing as the Bible has just told us that “ALL” in the book of life have been raised.

    All the Bible is saying is “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

    Actually the bible tells us that "all" will be raised period, not just those in the book of life but the ****ed as well will be raised to shame, etc.

    What bible are you quoting above?

    I Haven't read that verse like that before usually it is like this from KJV.

    5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.

    Yes, I understand you thoughts about the extra words in that sentence. The NIV brackets the statement to make it's meaning clear.

    Justme
     
  4. Atkin

    Atkin Member

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    Your reference to the Parousia must be qualified by stating its occurrence relative to the first advent.

    Start with a timeline from post ASCENSION before 35 AD (approx)

    - Give the START time for the 1000 year reign, then the rest of your post can be

    understood. As it is, when you say the 1000 years takes place before tribulation

    it stands as an empty time line. Indicate WHEN THE 1000 year reign starts starting with

    the period AFTER CHRIST went to heaven. Is the 1000 years starting IN OUR FUTURE or has it started already??


    Hence start from Christ's ascension---

    - WHEN DID THE 1000 YEARS START approximately-- 1st century ?---or AFTER our current period?--- JUST give an APPROXIMATE timeline

    - Then when does it end from when you indicated in the previous question above and also which events does the 1000 years end with?

    - What happens after the 1000 years ... does judgement take place immediately.?

    - EXPLAIN fully the NATURE and meaning of the parousia and add it in your time line above

    That would then place your points in the right perspective and you would not have to repeat your position.
     
  5. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Greetings Justme.
    Justme,,, says.
    “We read this from diametrically opposed positions alright.
    John 5 28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice Who hears Jesus' voice?...ALL who are in the graves...”

    My reply.
    I read it as.
    “For a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice.” A time for the righteous and then more of the righteous and then later, the unrighteous. That then is the time when they will have All heard His voice. Yes the time is coming. Many Saints have already heard His voice at own resurrection but not All, not just yet anyway.
    Matt 27:52. And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose.
    Where are the righteous when the second resurrection of damnation occurs?

    In the city!!!!!!!!!
    Rev 20:9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed THE CAMP OF THE SAINTS about, and the beloved city: and FIRE came down from God out of heaven, and DEVOURED THEM

    Justme, you say that Daniel is raised later in the resurrection after the 1000 years then argue about the voice of God being heard by ALL the Saved and those heading for Damnation, at the same time?

    Did Daniel hear HIS voice when Jesus called up the Saints at His resurrection?

    Matthew 25:50. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52. And the GRAVES WERE OPENED; and MANY BODIES of the SAINTS which SLEPT AROSE, 53And came out of the GRAVES AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and INTO THE HOLY CITY, and APPEARED UNTO MANY.
    If Daniel is still resting and as you claim waiting until after the 1000 years, how come if we are ALL to hear HIS voice at the one “TIME,” Daniel isn’t going to?

    How many does the Bible say are saved at the 2nd “resurrection of damnation?”

    NONE!
    That is the resurrection of damnation, you’re placing poor Daniel in that resurrection.

    That is not Biblical because the BIBLE says, the dead are raised FIRST.
     
  6. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    1 Thessalonians 4:15.For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are ALIVE and remain UNTIL the COMING of the LORD will by NO means PRECEDE THOSE who are ASLEEP. 16For the LORD HIMSELF will DESCEND from HEAVEN with a SHOUT, with the voice of an archangel, and with the TRUMPET of God. And the DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST. 17Then we who are ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds to meet the Lord IN THE AIR. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
    So there goes that theory about the dead including Daniel being raised later, a 1000 years later.
    Another thing, The only thing that comes down from heaven at “the resurrection of the ******” is FIRE.
    At the second “resurrection of damnation” after the 1000 years, there is NO mention of the saved eccept those in the city who are named the Saints.


    Justme,,,,
    There is not mention of time(S) only A time is coming...
    As Jesus is talking here He is only referring to the DEAD, those in the graves. When you discussed John 5 in your post, you didn't include verse 28.
    Verse 29 In the NIV
    29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

    My reply.
    Here’s verses 28 and 29.
    John 5:28. Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son,
    John 5:29. and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to judgment.
    What is your point?
    I have no problem with the “TIME.”
    There is coming a “TIME” when all die,,,, even though they die at a different “TIME.”

    There will be a “TIME” when all will hear His voice at the second coming to the resurrection of life and after the thousand years, at the resurrection of damnation, There is a “TIME” to pray, chat, study then sleep.
    There is a “TIME” for those to be saved and for those to wait in the ground and be destroyed a thousand years later at “the resurrection of damnation.”
    Again, what is your point?
    There will be a time when All will be fulfilled regarding HIS voice being heard.


    Justme,,,
    Bringing 28 back in it is ALL who are in the graves will hear and come out...It is obviously not only the wicked or ****ed because out of ALL those who come out some have done good and some have done evil.

    My reply.
    Not at the same time but, eventually,,, ALL . There WILL be a TIME that “ALL who are in the graves will hear and come out...” first the Righteous then,,, those written in the Book of life then eventually, a 1000 years later the wicked dead, you are getting the two mixed up.
    The DEAD RIGHTEOUS are raised FIRST then the living righteous are caught up with them.
    That’s what the Bible says.
    Matt 24:36. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
    40. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
    My question, is why do you have a gap for the dead in Christ being raised a thousand years later, when those that went through the tribulation are raised AFTER the DEAD IN CHRIST FIRST, which must include Daniel with whom we are ALL caught up “together.”
    You said that Daniel is raised later after the 1000 years so how can that be within a one “time” as you claim?
    You said that Daniel being dead would be raised later after the 1000 years.
    Yet, you try and argue all will hear His voice at one “Time”?

    Well, that didn’t happen when the resurrection occurred at our Lord’s resurrection when many Saints were raised.
    You have no proof either that it “was not part of the resurrection of life.”

    You quote the Bible, one death one resurrection, then say All will hear His voice at one time?
    We find that many Saints hear His voice and some don’t and you try and cover that problem, surmising that it was not a resurrection of life eternal for those many Saints raised earlier, and you do that without Bible back up.

    Justme’s quote.
    No, I can't change my mind because of these verses, they show strong support for it being at the same time and judgement can go either way.

    My reply.
    Of course you can’t “change your mind,” your understanding is based on what you think instead of what the Bible says.

    Judgement
    Which can mean a determination has been made from the names entered into the Book of life.
    However the other Book, the book of works, will mean trouble. They are not found not in the book of life. We have Rev 20 9 execution by fire. Rev 20: 11 to 15. A record of Judgement for both the righteous and unrighteous is read, a record of the fairness of God.

    Justme,,, says,,
    So what do you take here to say the resurrections are at different times.
    Paul refers to THE judgment not judgment(S)

    My reply.
    You are getting confused with Judgement and resurrections you keep mixing the two.
    There is one judgement of the righteous and the wicked then “the resurrection of life” “and the resurrection of damnation” in that order.
    You forget that the Bible says only those who did NOT worship the beast or have his mark ARE RAISED.
    Surely you remember that Daniel, talks about those resurrected are ONLY those who are IN the BOOK OF LIFE, nobody else gets a look in, eccept the guards that pierced him for a brief while.
    So the resurrection of life Must include the raised and the living that are in the Book of life.
    Authority to judge, is given over to the raised, that go through the tribulation.
    It is also given to the Disciples to judge even angels.
     
  7. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    1st Corinthians 6: 3. Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

    Rev 20: 4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and JUDGEMENT WAS GIVEN UNTO THEM: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



    This is the bit you seem to glance over, Justme. That Daniel 12: 1 says “thy people shall be delivered, EVERY ONE that shall be FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK.
    That does NOT INCLUDE those NOT IN the BOOK of LIFE. There is a distinction made.
    The unrighteous are not at the first resurrection of life their resurrection is not for another 1000 years.
    They are left behind because they are found unworthy.
    Not found in the Book of Life says it all.


    Daniel 12:1.
    “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, EVERY ONE that shall be found WRITTEN IN THE BOOK.”
    Now that is the clear intent about those resurrected at “the resurrection of life.”
    It was conditional.
    They have to be in the Book of life.

    Rev 20: This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    Now I wonder Justme, who this lot are that were NOT in the book of life that have NOT been raised?

    Rev 20:5.But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

    Acts 24:15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

    From the first “resurrection of life” for the just.
    To the next “resurrection of damnation,” for the unjust, there is a 1000 year span.

    The unrighteous living and dead remain on Earth. The living to face Armageddon.
    The record of their works noted in the other book.

    The unrighteous dead are raised after the 1000 years.
    To be killed by fire. The second death.
    That is the second resurrection of damnation.

    Justme,,,,
    There is no statement that says there is some other time for the *****ed to rise. There is only mention of that one time ..that of the great tribulation.
    Yes, as you say those whose name is written in the book will rise, but they will rise at the time of the great tribulation.

    No that’s not what the Bible says.
    The resurrection of life happens AT HIS SECOND COMING.
    1 Thessalonians 4:16. For the LORD HIMSELF shall DESCEND from HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:

    17. THEN WE which are ALIVE and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    How plain is that?

    That was the first resurrection. Where the dead, like Daniel are raised FIRST THEN the living are caught up together with them.
    No mention of fire coming down from Heaven as there is at the second resurrection. see Rev 20:9.

    Justme’s quote.
    “From this we learn that Daniel's people and all those whose name is written in the book will be delivered. Raised to heaven.
    When will this happen? At the time of the great tribulation. It doesn't say before, during or after ..just at that time.”

    My reply
    Compare Justme’s statement, claiming “there is only one resurrection at one time,” with the following verses. Look at the difference between the first resurrection and this second one after the 1000 years

    Rev 20: 7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8.And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


    Rev 20:9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed THE CAMP OF THE SAINTS about, and the beloved city: and FIRE CAME DOWN FROM GOD out of heaven, and DEVOURED THEM.

    Are God’s people among them raised a 1000 years later at resurrection two? NO!
    Does Jesus descend from heaven at the second resurrection 1000 years later? NO!
    What does descend from heaven? FIRE and lots of it.
    Anybody saved outside the city? NO!
    That was the second death. The second out of two, the resurrection of damnation.
    That is what the second resurrection is all about, punishment of the wicked by death.

    Rev 20: 10. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    It says the devil that DECEIVED THEM.
    It does not say the devil only deceived (SOME) of them, they were all deceived and found unworthy.
    The righteous will be waiting for them in the city when they gather around it.
    That did NOT happen at the first resurrection of life.
    Nobody will be saved at the resurrection of damnation.
    It does not work that way in the Bible.
    They are raised to suffer the second death by fire. Too late, No choice in it at all, that’s it! DEATH!!
     
  8. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Rev 20: 11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    How were the righteous and unrighteous judged?
    Those that are in the book of life are to be resurrected at His second coming and are saved!

    What about those that were killed by fire who were not raised at the second coming to “the resurrection of life” and remained dead for a 1000 years?

    How were they judged? Fairly.

    Rev 20: 12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the BOOKS were OPENED: and ANOTHER BOOK was opened, which is the book OF LIFE: and THE DEAD were judged out of those THINGS which were WRITTEN in the BOOKS, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS..

    When we see the following time of trouble on Earth then we know Michael will stand for His people.
    We will be delivered at that time, if we are found in the “Book of life.”
    Daniel 12: 1. And AT THAT TIME shall Michael STAND UP, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    Some will rise at the FIRST resurrection of life, that are in the Book of life.
    Daniel 12: 2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Some will rise to everlasting LIFE those recorded in book of life. Others will be raised to everlasting shame. When? After the 1000 years not in the book of life.

    Justme’s quote.
    From this we learn that Daniel's people and all those whose name is written in the book will be delivered. Raised to heaven.
    When will this happen? At the time of the great tribulation. It doesn't say before, during or after ..just at that time.

    My reply.
    It SAYS, AT THAT TIME!
    There is much, much more to it than that. God’s people have to run there power is scattered for 3 ½ years, from Satan see Rev12: 14, 15, 16, 17. That is during the tribulation period but a time for an ending IS given.
    Compare the Prophets and their words.
    Matt 24:15. Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16“then let those who are in Judea FLEE TO THE MOUNTAINS.
    Rev 12:14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a TIME, and TIMES, and HALF a TIME, from the face of the serpent.

    3 ½ YEARS

    Rev 12:15. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    Rev 12:16. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

    .
    Rev 12:17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the REMNANT OF HER SEED, which keep the commandments of God, and have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.


    Now look at what Daniel says.

    Daniel 12:6.
    And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, HOW LONG shall it be to THE END OF THESE WONDERS? 7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, AND SWEAR BY HIM that liveth for ever that it shall be for a TIME, TIMES, and an HALF; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all THESE things SHALL BE FINISHED.

    How long ? 3 ½ years.
    When does it start from when they see the abomination of desolation sitting where he ought not.

    How long will he sit where he ought not?

    Dan 12:11. And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    He will sit on the mount for about 3 ½ years.
    Then that’s his lot.
    Daniel 11:45. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet HE SHALL COME TO HIS END, and none shall help him.


    Daniel Chapter 12
    1And AT THAT TIME shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, EVERY ONE that shall be found WRITTEN IN THE BOOK.

    12BLESSED is HE THAT WAITETH, and COMETH TO the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    How long? 1335 days before salvation AND A BLESIING is received?
    About 3 ½ years.

    1335 days and God’s people will receive a blessing at the marriage supper of the Lamb. Next verse.


    Rev 19:9. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

    That’s the blessing, and Daniel will be there, with all the Saints just after the first resurrection at the second coming.
     
  9. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Justme,,, says.
    Once again let's look at Hebrews 9:27. (You mentioned something about this and I can't find it now.
    27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
    Man faces judgment AFTER death.
    How does the judgment work?
    Matthew 12'
    37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
    That indicates to me that the judgment AFTER death can send you up or down.

    My reply.
    Of course our own words condemn us I never said otherwise!
    I am not dragging more stuff into this you will complain that my posts are too long like you did before.
    Let’s keep it to the point and bring it to the abomination of desolation.
    Those found in the Book of life raised at the first “resurrection of life” go up.
    Then after the millennium those at “the resurrection of damnation go down in flames whilst the righteous look down from the city.

    Justme,,,,
    It does't say how long after death you know your judgment, just that it is AFTER death.

    My reply.
    Who really cares how long after a person dies we all die at different times. The dead no nothing so how long it is or not is not an issue
    Beside we are either in or out of the Book of life. Placed there from the foundation of the world. All will be revealed sooner or later.

    Justme,,,,
    Knowing this however, eliminates any consideration of some people physically living and somehow being granted the gift of eternal heavenly life without being physically dead first. The trick is did the person die before the cross when there was no hope of eternal life or did the person die after all of Christs enemies(last being death) had been destroyed.

    My reply.
    You are reasoning with your own philosophical thoughts, please keep to the biblical facts.
    Death has NOT been destroyed yet!

    Enoch, Elijah and Moses live by the power of the Redeemer/ Saviour.
    Did the OT Prophets know about being redeemed before the Saviour was put to the cross?
    YES, they certainly did.
    Isaiah 47:4. As for our Redeemer, the LORD of hosts is His name,

    Isaiah 43;11. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Saviour.
    The Dead Are Judged

    Justme says,,
    There is little doubt that this involved the good and the not so good and it also involves the Book of Life as did Daniel 12. As I said before did only the righteous die at sea?
    No, I can't go along with two separate resurrections, one for you and I and one for Saddom Hussein and at different times.

    My reply
    No I can’t agree it ONLY talks about those that are in the book of life being raised.
    I looked at this earlier but let's look again:

    Dan 12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, EVERYONE that shall be FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK.

    So the last verse proves absolutely, that Daniel is NOT raised after the thousand years, but at the second coming prior to the 1000 years.
    Justme says.,,,
    Actually this can't be.
    The 1000 year reign with Christ is prior to the parousia. Daniel is one of the REST OF THE DEAD, those who sleep in the dust and are raised at the time of the great tribulation. Those who are ALIVE at the parousia can NOT precede Daniel, who is AFTER the 1000 year reign with christ. Rev 20 1-6. 1 Thess 4
    I'll get back to this because you have many more points, but the hour is late.
    Justme

    My reply.
    The Bible says That the dead are raised FIRST not later, and we, the living are caught up with them.
    AT THE SECOND ADVENT!
    1Thess 4:16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall rise FIRST: 17Then we which are ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Meeting the Lord does NOT happen at the resurrection after the 1000 years.
    Also prove the 1000 years is prior to the resurrection?
    When did it start and finish using the Bible please?

    The reason you are confused is because you place the 1000 years before the second coming.

    Where does the BIBLE say word for word CLEARLY, that the 1000 years is before the resurrection of Daniel at the second coming, as you claim?

    Why do you say that Daniel is raised later when the Bible says the dead are raised FIRST then the living with them?

    Rev 20: “This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,”

    Resurrection of life at the second coming 1Thess 4:16.

    1 Thessalonians 4: 16. For the LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FORM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: 17THEN we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
    “This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,”

    These others are not raised until 1000 years later to be burned to death.
    Rev 20:5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

    Second resurrection of damnation after 1000 years when the nations rise up from Gog and Magog against God lead by Satan.


    Rev 20: 7. And when the THOUSAND YEARS ARE EXPIRED, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and COMPASSED the camp of the SAINTS about, and the beloved city: and FIRE CAME down from God out of heaven, and DEVOURED THEM.
    Where was Daniel in all this? Already in the city and had been raised a 1000 years earlier.

    (The Millennium you claim has started?)

    (When did the millennium start and when did it finish?)

    (From what year?)

    Many thanks.

    Maranatha.

    Prophecy countdown.
     
  10. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Atkin,

    I thought I had posted a short one in here this mornig, but I don't see it. If it shows up some where, sorry for repeating..........

    It is not proper to discuss full preterist ideas on this forum such as the parousia being in the first century as far as I know.

    However, the resurrection story follows a biblical sequence of events that are in relation to the great tribulation, no matter when that may be.

    Jesus was naturally the first to be raised to Heaven, as you say 35 AD or so.
    Then from Rev 20
    First there are some sitting on thrones in heaven who judge.
    (The first sentence of verse 4.
    4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

    It doesn't say here where they came from, who they are, nor does it matter at this point.

    Then there are those who:
    ...had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God.

    .... had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands.

    .....The second death has no power over them

    The above take part in the 1000 year reign with Christ.

    Then verse 5 tells us:
    5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

    The REST of the DEAD DID NOT come to life until the 1000 years ended.
    Therefore if you were of the opinion that this occured in the first century, you could not read the 1000 years as a literal number because there is only 65 years in the first century for this to occur.

    There is to be a resurrection of the dead at the time of the great tribulation...at the time ...is that before , during , or after?

    Rev 7
    These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,
    "they are before the throne of God
    and serve him day and night in his temple;

    The above people are in Heaven and they came out of the great tribulation. This is a whole nuther story...

    Where is Daniel? It clearly states that Daniel will be raised from the dead, I would assume to righteousness and the pleasant eternal life.

    Daniel 12 first 3 verses says there will be many who sleep in the dust (dead) who will be raised and Daniel will be one of them.

    1 Thess 4 tells us:

    15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    Those ALIVE at the coming will NOT precede those who have fallen asleep, who do NOT rise until AFTER the 1000 years.

    So if it is your opinion that the parousia is Dec. 25,2003, the 1000 year reign with Christ would be on now or over. As I said before if the 1000 year reign is now on earth some of those beheaded ones should be easy to spot running around earth.

    However, John had been taken 'in the spirit' to Heaven when he saw most of this vision. The 1000 year reign with Christ can be in the spiritual realm and go on unnoticed by mortal man until Dec 25,2003.

    Justme
     
  11. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Greetings, Wills

    My reply.

    I haven’t forgotten them.
    Please check my earlier posts. You will find your answers if you look.
    on post 153.
    I will repeat it here for you, that will save you having to look for it.
    Two outpourings of the Holy Spirit.
    “Not until everyone on earth is given an opportunity, will He come when the Bible is taken to every kindred and tongue.
    He sees that every body gets a fair chance. To decide to be for Him or against Him. We know that.”

    “We haven't done all that God would want us do in this work.
    There are millions of people who have never ever heard the name of, Jesus Christ.
    Our Church and others have missions throughout many lands but the work is limited.
    There may be some twenty languages spoken in any one country but the missions may only be working in one of them.
    In India there are a thousand languages.
    There are millions, who are illiterate. Put a book in their hands and they wouldn't know what to do with it.
    So there are tremendous obstacles to finish the work of spreading the Gospel by the written word or verbally.
    Church numbers are diminishing.
    We have to face reality .
    What we need is power from on high.

    We need to have an understanding of things written in the Bible that we have not previously understood.
    We need POWER FROM ON HIGH. Let me explain.
    After forty days from His resurrection and just before His ascension
    The Lord said to His church in Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

    Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    They were to wait until the power to witness came. Now the Holy Spirit did not ad to their knowledge. They knew the teachings of Jesus and how He lived. They knew His exceeding kindness. His character was unlike anybody they had ever met. That is why Peter could say in Matthew 16:16 Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    Now they also knew about His miracles, When He had resurrected a widows son.
    And Peter James and John saw Him raise the daughter of the Synagogue ruler.
    Luke 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare [him] stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
    Luke 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.
    Mark 5:37 And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James.
    Mark 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
    Mark 5:40 And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying.

    Mark 5:41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise.

    Mark 5:42 And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was [of the age] of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.
    They were there when Lazarus came walking out of his tomb.
    He was bound round and round and round and he must have taken all the movement he could muster to walk. They saw him come out. There was no question in their minds. They saw it all.

    But the Lord said tarry in Luke 24:49 The Holy Spirit did not ad to their knowledge. But the Holy Spirit did ad what the Scripture calls in Acts 1:8 power to witness
    An ability to communicate.

    Witness the Apostle Paul he said.
    1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
    1 Corinthians 2: 4and5 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
    So the apostle was denying that the dependents of the work was on human eloquence. It wasn't. It needed power from on high.
    So when the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost He did not ad information but added a differential to make the work of the apostle's and the one hundred and twenty effective.

    Now why am I saying all of this? It is because I have to extrapolate what happened back there down to our day.
    We are not going to go anywhere. We are not going to finish the work.
    Not until there is that same power that came on the day of Pentecost, could the infant church have left Jerusalem let alone spread across the world.
    It is foolish to try to do God's work without God's power.
    So the need of the church today to finish the work. Is the same need as seen back there in the beginning of the work. And that is the power the presence of the Holy Spirit.
    Now we talk about the EARLY RAIN and the LATTER RAIN. The FIRST RAIN OR OUTPOURING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS ON THE DAY OF PENTICOST.
    Now as the EARLY RAIN started the work of the church, the LATTER RAIN will finish it.

    But WE ARE NOT SEEING EARLY RAIN RESULTS. Not the kind of results they had.

    BE PATIENT.
    Bible backup.
    James 5:7 BE PATIENT therefore, brethren, UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD. Behold, the husbandman WAITETH for the precious FRUIT OF THE EARTH, and hath LONG PATIENCE for it, UNTIL HE RECEIVE the EARLY RAIN AND LATTER RAIN.

    Now, how clear is that, it wont happen until the latter rain. The first rain, Pentecost. The latter rain at “the time of the end.” When the word will be taken to all the world.

    The fruit of the earth are the saved or harvest but that will not happen until the early and LATTER RAIN at the time of the end.

    The only difference between the early rain and LATTER RAIN IS QUANTITY. The early rain had a quality about it.
    That will be exactly duplicated in the LATTER RAIN but, ABUNDANTLY .

    Bible backup.
    Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the FORMER RAIN MODERATELY, and HE WILL CAUSE to come down for you THE RAIN, the FORMER RAIN, and the LATTER RAIN in the first.

    Joel is not just talking about the first or “former rain” at Pentecost given moderately. He is talking about the first and second or “latter rain” because he talks about the “spirit upon all flesh.”

    Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass AFTERWARDS, [that] I will POUR OUT my spirit UPON ALL FLESH; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
    Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

    As the early rain was given moderately so the latter rain will be given abundantly. “To all flesh.”
    What we read in acts is but a sample a few drops compared to what we are going to see in the LATTER RAIN.
    What I have begun to do is read acts not as history but as prophecy and it's thrilling.
    On top of that, this book is called the acts of the Apostles it should really be called the acts of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles.
    What we are really reading in acts is how God's church properly behaves when the church is under the GOVERNANCE of GOD.

    The END COMES when the BIBLE GOES to ALL the WORLD.
    The end has NOT happened!!”

    I hope this is of help to you.

    Maranatha.

    Prophecy Countdown.
     
  12. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

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    Wills, I am a post or two behind.

    Will catch up as soon as I can, with the answers you asked for.
    PC.
     
  13. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi PC,

    We have to pin down who the 'dead' are.

    The dead, as I see it are those who die prior to the coming of the son of man. Those who must sleep in the dust because eternal life is not available to sinful man until after the sacrifice on the cross and whatever technicalities involved with Jesus providing salvation for mankind.( the destroying of enemies etc)


    We have to understand that resurrection only involves the DEAD. There is no need to raise the LIVING.

    The following verses discuss the 'resurrection of the dead' and here it is speaking of the righteous, but we know that the wicked are raised to torment as well. BUt again they are raised to torment after they are DEAD.
    1 Cor 15
    42So will it be with the resurrection of the DEAD. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
    If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[5] ; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

    We have to remember that the judgment occurs AFTER death, once again showing there is not any resurrection of the physical LIVING.

    Another point to be dealt with is that this second resurrection is only for the wicked.

    Matthew 25
    In the story of the sheep and the goats we have this in the last verse:

    46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

    From verse 31 on it tells of how Jesus considers His people and their actions and one of the ways He arrives at His judgment of His people.

    Both the righteous and the wicked are talked about here and when does this happen?

    31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

    This shows the judging of good and evil at the same time as far as I am concerned.

    When you discuss the resurrection at Daniel 12:1-3 you bring up those who are written in the Book, but fail to mention that all this is at the time of the great tribulation.

    That is the only reference to time given , but it is in favor of a resurrection of the good and not so good at the same time...some go left and some go right.

    I still think Daniel plays a key role in understanding this resurrection thing.

    You have wanted to include the people who came out of the graves at the crucifixion as being part of the 'first resurrection.'

    I disagree for the following reasons:
    1) they did not inherit ETERNAL physical life because they later physically died again.

    2) Paul insisted the resurrection had not taken place yet as he dealt with Hymeneaus and Philates.

    3) John saw the ones of the 'first' resurrection of REV 20 in Heaven, not in Jerusalem, the city.

    Back to Daniel 12

    2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

    There is nothing in that sentence that indicates the passing of 1000 years between the good and the bad.Are the good and the bad both part of the 'multitudes? Yes.

    When will this happen?
    Again the only answer given is

    "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress .........

    Daniel will sleep in the dust and be raised at the end of the days....

    13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

    I assume Daniel will inherit the heavenly eternal life when he is raised, irregardless of when that is.

    He will recieve his inheritance at the END of the days. When is that? Well, it is in the same generation that sees the coming of the son of man which is immediately AFTER the great tribulation. So somewhere in whatever time frame your opinion puts it, Daniel is raised within one generation of the parousia. There isn't a 1000 year generation.

    And once again this has no biblical choice but to be AFTER the 1000 year reign with Christ and before those physically alive at the time of the parousia.

    Rev 20

    5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

    1 Thess 4

    17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

    Note the AFTER THAT...and verse 15 pegs this at the time of the parousia.

    I don't think you have a valid argument to say the second resurrection is only of the wicked.
    As well, to consider the 1000 year reign with Christ as being after the parousia is biblically impossible. Simply because we who are alive at the parousia CAN NOT precede whoever it is that is DEAD in CHRIST...whoever that may be. We do not precede them and they are after the 1000 year reign. This is how the bible lays out the sequence of events whether it is the year 4 AD or 4000 AD.

    Rev 20:1-6, 1 Thess 4:14-18.

    Justme










    did not come first
     
  14. rff169467

    rff169467 New Member

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    The hearts of all those that are in the Christian churches [Complete Apostasia]
     
  15. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
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    Christian
    When does the first resurrection take place ? Has it taken place already OR IS IT YET TO TAKE PLACE? You cannot talk about the first resurrection without knowing that it occurs BEFORE THE 1000 years.

    Revelation 20:This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    HUMAN death is carnal death, it has no bearing in God.

    If the first resurrection has not taken place YET, then when do they resurrect AND REIGN WITH CHRIST for 1000 years.?

    If you claim the first resurrection has not taken place, then you are teaching a future 1000 year reign.

    THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS DEFINED BEFORE THE START OF THE 1000 years..

    because they resurrected AND WENT AHEAD TO REIGN WITH CHRIST FOR 1000 years.

    Your point number 2 IS NOT connected to the verse in Matthew 27:52 Philates and the other one were teaching that the first resurrection took place in the Old Testament
    Do some research on that ... it is misunderstood and misapplied to the saints who awoke from the graves

    State when in your opinion, the first resurrection takes place /took place in relation to the beginning of the 1000 years since you disagree with this

    your words--
    You have wanted to include the people who came out of the graves at the crucifixion as being part of the 'first resurrection.'

    I disagree for the following reasons:
    1) they did not inherit ETERNAL physical life because they later physically died again.

    WHEN does'first resurrection take place ... HAS NOT THE 1000 YEARS STARTED ALREADY?
     
  16. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
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    You cannot say THE 1000 YEARS has started already AND THEN DENY that the first resurrection HAS NOT TAKEN PLACE.

    THE FIRST RESURRECTION HAPPENS FIRST of course with Christ's resurrection

    ONLY THEN DOES THE 1000 YEAR reign begin

    Hence once you affirm that the 1000 years has begun already over the centuries,

    AUTOMATICALLY THAT IMPLIES that the first resurrection has taken place already.

    You cannot say that the 1000 years has begun already... AND IN THE SAME BREATH

    SAY THAT THE FIRST RESURRECTION has not taken place----THEY GO HAND IN HAND

    FIRST RESURRECTION... followed by the start of the 1000 years.

    Did you expect that there would be people living a human fleshly life for centuries to prove God's first resurrection? How would they interact with people? surely God knows that such a mixture would confuse humans. Their souls never die .. in much the same way as Christ never died after his resurrection.... same as the souls of those beheaded

    JOHN SAW THEIR SOULS--REVELATION 20--I SAW THE SOULS OF THOSE BEHEADED AND THEY CAME TO LIFE AND REIGNED 1000 YEARS----
    You are wrongly translating it and saying that human beings would be seen carnally and fleshly living for 1000 years. That is wrong for souls CANNOT BE SEEN...

    ... John did not see flesh people REIGNING FOR 1000 fleshly limited human YEARS on Earth. They reign with Christ, SO WHY DO YOU expect to see carnal human flesh REIGNING WITH CHRIST when Christ CANNOT BE SEEN till after the 1000 years. Their souls reign with Christ and CANNOT BE SEEN living 1000 visible fleshly YEARS.


    AGAIN.... THE 1000 YEARS started ONLY AFTER THE FIRST RESURRECTION...
    so when did the 1000 years BEGIN?

    ONCE YOU ANSWER that, immdediately you know when the first resurrection took place .. because IT TAKES PLACE BEFORE THE 1000 STARTED..they came to life...THEIR SOULS CAME TO LIFE WITH THE INVISIBLE CHRIST..... can you see the eternally alive Christ?
    No. not now.
     
  17. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi ATKIN,

    The first resurrection IS the group that will reign for 1000 years.

    You wrote:
    because they resurrected AND WENT AHEAD TO REIGN WITH CHRIST FOR 1000 years.

    Yes.

    You wrote:

    Your point number 2 IS NOT connected to the verse in Matthew 27:52 Philates and the other one were teaching that the first resurrection took place in the Old Testament

    Note: I have been spelling the name wrong.. it is Philetus..

    8who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

    These two said the resurrection had already happened. They said this prior to 68 AD because apparently Paul wrote this in that year.
    It doesn't say how long ago it had occured, just that it occured and it was apparently an incorrect statement at the time it was said.

    You wrote:

    Do some research on that ... it is misunderstood and misapplied to the saints who awoke from the graves

    Well, I would simply say that because of this verse in Timothy we should not consider those who came out of the graves at the crucifixion to be eternally resurrected.

    The first resurrection involves the group who ARE the 1000 year reign with Christ.
    Since this is the FIRST resurrection and the REST of the DEAD are not raised until the 1000 years are over and because those alive at the parousia CAN NOT precede those who are raised AFTER the 1000 years, it follows that the 1000 years is OVER at the time of the parousia.
    If the parousia is 2000 years from now the 1000 year reign with Christ need not have started yet. If the parousia is next week, the 1000 year reign is in progress or over.
    If you want to believe the parousia is next week it would be necessary to believe that the 1000 year reign with Christ occurs in the heavenly, spiritual, invisible (to mortal man) realm as there has been zero reports of beheaded people walking around earth.

    Justme
     
  18. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
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    You have listed the conditions appropriately regarding the 1000 years and the 1st resurrection but in a general manner.

    MY QUESTION to you was ....When do you believe the 1000 years reign started? . Surely, you must have a belief and must have an opinion on this.... or do you not believe the Word?

    State your DIRECT opinion on when you think the 1000 years started or is there something you wish to avoid on that?

    Your response was talking about BOTH A FUTURE 1000 YEARS and A PAST 1000 years.
    Which one do you believe, from the scriptures AND FROM YOUR TIMING OF THE START OF THE 1000 YEARS,E PLEASE GIVE AN IDEA OF WHEN THE FIRST RESURRECTION TOOK PLACE.
    We cannot have BOTH A PAST 1000 YEARS AND A FUTURE 1000 YEARS as your belief.
     
  19. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Atkin,

    On this forum any discussion of past fulfillment is not allowed so it would not be appropriate to discuss the timing of the parousia here.

    You would have to discuss such things on the unothodox forum.

    Justme
     
  20. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
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    Hi Justme,

    You must have misunderstood my question. I did not ask you anything about past fulfilment. I merely asked a question related to the 1000 years WHICH you have been DISCUSSING with Prophecy Countdown in many previous posts.

    I simply asked your opinion about when the 1000 year reign started. I am surprised by the connection to some past fulfilment issue. You have made so many posts on the 1000 years and a forum cannot avoid the 1000 years.

    I do not find the term parousia in my question too, I merely asked your opinion when the 1000 year reign started, not an issue about parousia.
     
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