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A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Ken-1122, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    In the analogy you provided, it was of a 3 way conversation but the question was not directed at the trans person, but because it was a 3 way conversation the trans person was able to hear the question asked about him to the other person. I never denied this was possible

    I have several reasons for believing transgender ideas are manufactured; as I said before I believe transgenderism is not based on reality, it’s only in your head thus manufactured. I never said that was the only one.

    It's one thing to tell offensive Jesus jokes when in the company of Christians; it’s another to feel a need to pretend Jesus is lord, and claim all other religions are false when in the company of Christians in order to not offend them. I suspect you will not do that; I suspect you will insist Christians acknowledge whatever religious beliefs they have, that not everybody is going to share them; and it is not an attack against them, nor is it an insult for you to not share their religious beliefs when you are in their company. Is my assumption correct?
     
  2. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat New Member

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    I agree, but this has nothing to do with my point.

    I agree, but again this has noting to do with my point.

    Oh good grief. Nowhere did I say this. I actually gave facts that a majority of elementary school teachers are women and a majority of engineers are men. No where did I say only women should be elementary school teachers or that only men can be engineers.

    These things are obvious, And I am not suggesting anything of this sort. Please refrain from misrepresenting what I actually said.

    I never did.

    They are not delusions. Maybe your delusions that gender=biology should not be taken seriously.

    Okay.

    Nope, what I explained above was based on facts. It is true that most elementary school teachers are women and most engineers are men. If you want to discuss why that is then we can do that. But not if you are going to misrepresent what I say.

    This is a huge problem in our society, we cannot talk about these issues because when someone says something that seems against the current version of politically correctness they are labels with a derogatory name without any clarification. This inhibits learning and change for the better. You could have just asked, hey this seems sexist to me can you explain why it isn't? instead of calling me a sexist after you did not understand what I said.

    I never said anything like this.

    Humans are more complex than reptiles. And again biology does not equal gender.

    biological Male and female are different than gender. This is what you refuse to accept.
     
  3. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    lol You did, and I demonstrated it twice now, but whatever.
    Hmm... Clinical depression is all in your head if you've got it too, so I guess those people are just creating problems that don't exist too, ya?
    How silly. I don't claim a transgender person is whatever gender they feel simply because I use whatever pronoun. I do not make a point to remind Christians at every opportunity that I don't share their beliefs, no, your analogy fails.
     
  4. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    So why did you mention it? I asked you to provide a list of roles that only apply to men; not women, and another list of roles that only apply to women; not men.

    You responded with facts about men being engineers, and women being school teachers, with women preferring skirts and makeup, and men preferring jeans. If you didn’t mean these as examples of what should only apply to men or what only should apply to women, why did you even mention it? It seems I asked for you to provide one thing, and rather than respond to what I asked, you began answering questions nobody asked, and now you are accusing me of misrepresenting what you said. Let’s try it again.

    Please provide a list of roles that only apply to men (never women)
    And another list of roles that only apply to women (never men)
     
  5. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Clinical depressed people are not demanding I act as if everything is fine the way they are.
    And I don’t go around reminding transgender people at every opportunity that I don’t share their beliefs either! But if I happen to talk to one, I refuse to pretend I share their beliefs. Now how is this different than when or if you talk to Christians?
     
  6. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat New Member

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    Here is the thing, I never said anywhere that there are roles only for women or only for men. Here is what I actually said.

    What I said was a majority of men have certain attributes and a majority of women do as well, not all. Then I used facts such as elementary school teachers and engineers to say that men gravitate toward engineering and women elementary school teachers for examples. There must be a reason this is so based somewhat on their gender. This last statement we can discuss unless you want to call me more names?

    I cannot since there are not any. And as I explained just now I never said or implied that there were. You changed attributes to roles, not me. You are the one that denies a persons gender just because you disagree with it, not me. Notice, I have not called you any names. You did not like my answer because you basically asked me "do you like beating your wife" type question that had noting to do with what I said.
     
  7. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    So.... the law didn't change; it's objective, but the subjective interpretation and enforcement of the law changed. do you agree?
     
  8. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    How are you defining the difference between objective vs subjective? And what's your point?
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  9. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Words on paper are nothing. Ink does nothing, means nothing. Paper does nothing, means nothing.

    July 20, 1969 marked the last day I had to comply with segregation laws, sitting in the segregated area of a movie theater. The fact that the Civil Rights Act had passed five years earlier was not yet relevant to those in that town who interpreted and enforced the law.

    The subjective interpretation and enforcement of what is written on paper is the law.
     
  10. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I said
    Gender is not real, it’s a social construct based on some subjective imaginations, that vary from person to person. I don’t think the concept of gender as is being redefined should be taken seriously by society.

    You responded
    A transgender person is simply saying that even though I am a biological man I identify with the social ideas of femininity as agreed upon by society.


    Now here I disagreed with the idea there are social ideas of femininity as agreed upon by society. That is why I asked you to list some roles that only apply to men, and some that only apply to women. (perhaps I should have phrased it; social ideas of femininity as agreed upon by society, but I don’t see the difference between that and roles)


    You responded by listing what men on average will gravitate towards, vs what women on average will gravitate towards; but this is not what I was asking! If you are going to agree that there are social ideas of femininity that society has agreed upon, I would like you to list some of these ideas of femininity that society has agreed up on, not what men and women gravitate towards.

    Can you do that?

    PS I apologize if I offended you that wasn't my intent. I was calling the ideas you were espousing sexist, I didn't mean it as a personal attack against you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  11. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    So what?
    Sure you would. You said that you would make sure to use the "he" or "she" that corresponds to their biology when you refer to them. Try as I might, I can't fathom a reason to not just use whichever they prefer. When I meet someone new, I tell them my name is Nicholas, but you can refer to me as Nick. Who cares if someone asks me to refer to them as "he" or "she"?

    But even if there was some good reason to use "he" or "she" based on biology and not gender, you could still just use their name instead. But you're going to intentionally use the pronoun that you know is going to offend them. Using their proper name isn't playing along with their preferred gender, it's bypassing it.
    I didn't say you should. I said you should just use their proper name and not address their gender at all. But you want to insist on reminding them that you disagree with what they're doing. Why should we care?
    Because I think about what I say and what might offend folks, and then I don't say those things. You think about what you say and how it might offend trans folks, and then say whatever you please.
     
  12. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I disagree; the law was still objective, the people tasked with enforcing the law were not enforcing the law correctly. Just like, math will always be objective even if the person tasked with teaching math teaches it wrong.
     
  13. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    What on Earth are you talking about? I think I've been very clear; when speaking to a person; even if they are transgender, I only use the pronoun "you" or "your". The only time I use he or her is when speaking of them to somebody else. If the transgender interrupt our conversation to tell me they are a Xi or a Zi, I would inform them I am speaking about biology, not gender. I also said if I don't have time to explain biology vs gender to them, I would probably just refer to them by name rather than Zi or Xi

    Oh; so if a Christian asks which church you go to, you will not admit you don't go to church for fear of offending them?
     
  14. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    Wow. You're just going to ignore things that contradict your predispositions aren't you? I already demonstrated a three person conversation to you. I'm not going to repeat myself indefinitely.

    And why switch to "Xi" and "Zi"? I asked about "he" and "she". Let's stick with that.

    And, just like I said, you're going to refer to them how you please instead of what won't be offensive to them. How is what you said different from my paraphrase? That you explained to them they shouldn't be offended?
    How is that analogy apt? If a trans person asks you about your views on transgenderism, tell the truth. If someone doesn't like to be referred to by some words, don't do that. Why is that so hard? Why care?
     
  15. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    As I said before, I address biology not gender. He, She is biology; I have no problem with that. It’s that Xi, Zi and the countless other pronouns I refuse to play into.
     
  16. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    No I said I would address them according to their biology, or use their name if I cared not explain biology

    As I said before, I address biology not gender. He, She is biology; I have no problem with that. It’s that Xi, Zi and the countless other pronouns I refuse to play into
     
  17. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    I know. And if a transgender woman lives her life like a woman, and has all the secondary characteristics of a female, and that "he" wants to be referred to as "she", you're not going to do that. You know that when she hears "he" instead of "she", it's going to offend her, but you're going to do it anyways. You aren't saying anything new in either of your posts. I've paraphrased you accurately. Now tell me why I should care about their biology when I use a pronoun. Why shouldn't pronouns refer to gender instead of biological sex? Ignore the "new" pronouns, I don't care about those.
     
  18. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    As I've said before, if a person who looks like a man tells me they are a woman, I will assume they are a biological woman. What am I supposed to do check their genital?
     
  19. Sparagmos

    Sparagmos Well-Known Member

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    Transgender women do look like women.
     
  20. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat New Member

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    Roles and ideas of femininity are different. Roles are what a person does and ideas of femininity are how people think and act. At least this is what I am getting at. I did say this to answer this question:

    Now that above quote of mine I am talking generalities, averages. Ask most men if they want to wear a dress and most men will say no.

    But that is what I was talking about. I was not ever talking about specific roles for only men and only women. I probably was not clear enough.

    I did above. There are lots of things that we associate with girls and boys, man and women whether we should or not is another topic but we still have these ideas in our heads. And some are valid for most genders. Some may not like the fact that we associate certain preferences to women and some to men but this is based on what we have experienced.

    It is also a fact that men, especially young men, are more risk takers than women in general. Also, my wife has different emotional needs in a marriage than I do and most of her friends are the same way as well as mine. Surveys say that women are different than men in a lot of ways. This is not a bad thing but any good husband needs to recognize the differences and understand them. Two great books my wife and I read are "For Men Only" and "For Women Only". These two books have a lot of research that shows these general differences between the genders. These books were written by Christians. Men's and women's brains are different, the produce different attributes because they are physically different. Different parts of women's and men's brains have different relative size, interconnections, chemistry etc. and these differences cause these differences in gender attributes.

    Nirao Shah, PhD has studied these brain differences his entire career and he says: "We think gender-specific behavior is a composite of all these modules, which, added up, give you your overall degree of maleness and femaleness,”

    How men's and women's brains are different

    Maleness and femaleness is a combination of culture and biology, but these differences do exist and they are on a continuum not one or the other, all people have empathy, openness, extravertness etc. but to different degrees.

    Ok,no problem. But I disagree that my ideas were sexist when I used facts to back them up.
     
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