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A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Ken-1122, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    There are some transgender people would disagree that gender is not real. They are not transgender in pursuit of something "not real." They are transgender in pursuit of something that is very real to them, and undeniably so.
     
  2. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat New Member

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    A social construct is simply rules or ideas a society agrees upon and these change constantly. You don't get to decide by yourself what society should be like. Our society is slowly taking it seriously. We as a society have set up ideas as to what it means to be a woman or man in our society. What gender attributes women have and men have. A transgender person is simply saying that even though I am a biological man I identify with the social ideas of femininity as agreed upon by society. The attributes of masculinity and femininity are real.

    Money is a social construction and it is real. The paper is worth very little but what is written on it is valuable and real.

    Go ahead. If society is persuaded then that will be a new norm. Age is conveniently measured by earth years. We could have easily determined age by months or by a mars year if we wanted to. It's just a social construct anyway.

    Here is the issue. You consider it a delusion. Do you consider your gender a delusion or do you deny you have a gender? Men can simply identify with the social construct of what a woman is supposed to be so they want to be called a she/her. I don't see the issue and why it harms you in any way.

    So how is this harming you in any way to call a biological female a he?

    As I have pointed out above gender is real and a social construct.
     
  3. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    In some cases they do. For example, ambassadors have diplomatic immunity, and the president can't be indicted (unfortunately...).
     
  4. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Just because the monsters inside of my head may be real to me, doesn't mean they are reality.
     
  5. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    The laws for ambassadors apply to all ambassadors. The laws for presidents apply to all presidents.
     
  6. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Really? Can you provide a list of gender roles that only apply to women, and another list of gender roles that only applies to men?

    Money is real because everybody agrees on it’s value. Everybody does not agree on this redefined version of gender

    So right and wrong means nothing to you, if you can get enough people to go along no matter how absurd, you’re good with it huh? I don't operate that way.
    BTW my analogy was about Earth years, not Mars or anywhere else.

    I still equate gender with biological Sex.

    Please list some of these social constructs of what a woman is supposed to be.

    While we are at it, why don’t we pretend 1+1=3 because it makes someone feel better about themselves? Why don’t we pretend that reptile is a mammal because it makes someone feel better about themselves?

    I’ll tell you why; because it’s wrong!
     
  7. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    You're just splitting hairs. It's illegal for me to walk into your house uninvited but it's not illegal for you to do so.
     
  8. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I don't know what your point is, my point is that laws of the land are agreed upon by the entire society. This newly defined transgenderism is not.
     
  9. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    They most certainly are not, or they wouldn't be constantly changing them.
     
  10. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    When a law changes, it's because the members of society responsible for enacting laws have agreed on the change. Even those who disagree with the laws still know what the laws are. Its not like everybody has their own set of laws they are required to follow that vary from person to person.
     
  11. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    The point is that laws don't exist independently of human minds.
     
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  12. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    If someone asks me to call them by a name of their choice, I do so. If someone demands that I refer to them by a pronoun of their choosing, I don't do so. I will not be manipulated or controlled by another person. I have never once on my life directly addressed a person as he or she. If I use a pronoun in speaking directly to someone it would be "you". It would be ridiculous to say He or She in conversation where You was the appropriate pronoun. I do not go out of my way to offend people so if I believe someone would be offended by hearing me, in conversation with another, refer to him/her as either him or her or he or she, I simply do not use any pronoun at all. If that person were elsewhere and not able to hear what I said I might use the pronoun that referred to that person's obvious sex if I did not use their name instead. I cannot honestly use a pronoun that I believe does not apply to the person I am speaking of. So if anyone does not like the pronoun I would use in referring to them, rather than demanding that I use a pronoun that I find dishonest I suggest that he/she just ask me to use his/her name instead of a pronoun and I will be glad to do so.
     
  13. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    That doesn't change the fact that laws are objective. What is legal can be demonstrated/proven to be legal. The same can't be said for these transgender issues.
     
  14. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    Laws are based upon subjective morality. In that sense they are not objective. They are supposed to be universally applied but that is not objectivity, it is consistency. Of course, as with any human endeavor, what is supposed to be is not always what occurs.
     
  15. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I disagree! Though laws may be based on subjective morality, they are agreed upon by law makers, and like math, measurements, and anything else objective; written down for all to understand. Because of this, that which is legal can be demonstrated/proven to be legal or not
     
  16. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    I don't see agreement on arbitrary standards as meaning the same as objective.
     
  17. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Ummm that IS objectivity. That's why math is objective. That's why measurements, time, distance volume, etc. is objective; because mankind has agreed on arbitrary standards.
     
  18. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't think you understand how anachronistic your worldview is, even by Christian standards. True Jesus-shaped ethics is not based on presumed objectivity, but intersubjectivity. Ethical norms are not transcendent and separated from humanity, but situated within our concrete existence.
     
  19. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat New Member

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    Disclaimer: I am not transgender and I am not an expert and my views are changing as I learn more about transgender people. This may not be 100% accurate but it is how I see it as of now.

    I am not talking about gender roles or anything that 100% only applies to one gender. I am talking about personality traits, preferences etc. In our society it is acceptable for most women to wear dresses or skirts, most men do not want to wear dresses. Makeup is the same way, most men don't want to wear makeup in the same way they most women do. It is about how men and women are different in their personalities etc.

    Over 75% of elementary school teachers are women. Why? Because there is something about teaching little kids that women find satisfying more than most men. Same way with engineering, 80% of engineers in the US are men. I think there is something about this field that most men like and most women would rather so something else.

    Add all these things up and if a person resonates mainly with the opposite gender then they may want to identify as that gender.

    Over 60% of Americans say they are more supportive of transgender rights than 5 years ago. Everyone is never going to agree but most people do agree that transgender people should not be discriminated against and that is rising every year.

    Me neither and I never said that morality does not exist. 20 years ago gay marriage was supported by 35% of the population, now it is over 60%. Society changes what we believe about social issues. Gender is one thing that is changing as well.

    That is OK but I think you should think about how that belief affects transgender people.

    I did above. And its not about what we expect a woman to be like but what most women are like.

    Because this would lead to catastrophe and people would get hurt. Treating transgender people with respect harm no one. You have never come up with how calling a person a particular pronoun harms you in any way.

    I don't see the need in this but at least no one would get hurt.

    Why is it wrong?
     
  20. Pommer

    Pommer Autodidact polymath

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    Correct insofar as “these transgender issues” are in a state of flux.
    I see your “simple fix” as a way to quell said flux so that you will know “how to think” on such things.
    Time takes time.
    The joy is watching it unfold without having to set everything in stone from the get-go.
     
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