A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

Ken-1122

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Sure we did. Remember, you said:

So I said:

And you agreed:

Trans people are part of conversations where a pronoun like "he" or "she" will be used to refer to them. You were wrong, and you acknowledged that.
In the analogy you provided, it was of a 3 way conversation but the question was not directed at the trans person, but because it was a 3 way conversation the trans person was able to hear the question asked about him to the other person. I never denied this was possible

Now you just don't want to work this realization into your thinking process because you want to keep imagining that the offense is manufactured, but you don't have any reason to think that anymore. The reason you gave is gone.

I have several reasons for believing transgender ideas are manufactured; as I said before I believe transgenderism is not based on reality, it’s only in your head thus manufactured. I never said that was the only one.

It's disrespectful to intentionally do things that you know will offend people. Since being offended is irrational (i.e. based solely on emotional reasons), that applies to everything, not just transgender people. I don't tell Jesus jokes to Christians because it will offend them; it doesn't matter that I think what they believe is wrong. I'm not going to hop up on a free-speech-soapbox and offend people just on the principle that I think everyone should stop being offended about anything.

It's one thing to tell offensive Jesus jokes when in the company of Christians; it’s another to feel a need to pretend Jesus is lord, and claim all other religions are false when in the company of Christians in order to not offend them. I suspect you will not do that; I suspect you will insist Christians acknowledge whatever religious beliefs they have, that not everybody is going to share them; and it is not an attack against them, nor is it an insult for you to not share their religious beliefs when you are in their company. Is my assumption correct?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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There are lots of men who like dressing like women and wearing makeup, they even have a name for it; cross dressing. And they are still men who don’t go around claiming they are women.
I agree, but this has nothing to do with my point.

And there are plenty of women who don’t like wearing skirts or makeup, and they are still women. This is starting to sound sexist.
I agree, but again this has noting to do with my point.

Wait a minute; are you saying jobs like school teacher are for women, and jobs like engineers are for men? That IS sexist!
Oh good grief. Nowhere did I say this. I actually gave facts that a majority of elementary school teachers are women and a majority of engineers are men. No where did I say only women should be elementary school teachers or that only men can be engineers.

There are women who are police officers, Marines, truck drivers, construction workers, and there are men who choose to be stay at home dads, airline stewards, and nurses. A biological woman who doesn’t like wearing makeup, perhaps wants to be an engineer, and prefers jeans over dress has no reason to feel like a guy because of this. What you are suggesting are outdated, sexist ideas that have been dispelled long ago and for good reason.
These things are obvious, And I am not suggesting anything of this sort. Please refrain from misrepresenting what I actually said.

It seems what you resonate with gender dysphoria is based on sexism and misogyny. Why would you defend such thoughts and ideas?
I never did.

I’m not saying they should be discriminated against, I’m just saying their delusions should not be taken seriously
They are not delusions. Maybe your delusions that gender=biology should not be taken seriously.

When I said “wrong” I didn’t mean morality, I meant wrong as in inaccurate.
Okay.

What you listed above was based on sexism
Nope, what I explained above was based on facts. It is true that most elementary school teachers are women and most engineers are men. If you want to discuss why that is then we can do that. But not if you are going to misrepresent what I say.

This is a huge problem in our society, we cannot talk about these issues because when someone says something that seems against the current version of politically correctness they are labels with a derogatory name without any clarification. This inhibits learning and change for the better. You could have just asked, hey this seems sexist to me can you explain why it isn't? instead of calling me a sexist after you did not understand what I said.

Any female who doesn’t feel like she is a woman because she doesn’t like makeup and dresses needs to be informed that wearing dresses and make up doesn’t make you a woman
I never said anything like this.

Reptiles are cold blooded animals, mammals are warm blooded. To call a cold blooded animal a mammal, or a warm blooded animal a reptile is wrong/inaccurate regardless of what goes on inside of their heads.
Humans are more complex than reptiles. And again biology does not equal gender.

People with XX chromosome and a Uterus are biological females. People with XY chromosome and male sex organs are biological males. To call a person with XX chromosome and a Uterus a male is biologically wrong/inaccurate regardless of what goes on inside of their heads.
biological Male and female are different than gender. This is what you refuse to accept.
 
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Moral Orel

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In the analogy you provided, it was of a 3 way conversation but the question was not directed at the trans person, but because it was a 3 way conversation the trans person was able to hear the question asked about him to the other person. I never denied this was possible
lol You did, and I demonstrated it twice now, but whatever.
I have several reasons for believing transgender ideas are manufactured; as I said before I believe transgenderism is not based on reality, it’s only in your head thus manufactured. I never said that was the only one.
Hmm... Clinical depression is all in your head if you've got it too, so I guess those people are just creating problems that don't exist too, ya?
It's one thing to tell offensive Jesus jokes when in the company of Christians; it’s another to feel a need to pretend Jesus is lord, and claim all other religions are false when in the company of Christians in order to not offend them. I suspect you will not do that; I suspect you will insist Christians acknowledge whatever religious beliefs they have, that not everybody is going to share them; and it is not an attack against them, nor is it an insult for you to not share their religious beliefs when you are in their company. Is my assumption correct?
How silly. I don't claim a transgender person is whatever gender they feel simply because I use whatever pronoun. I do not make a point to remind Christians at every opportunity that I don't share their beliefs, no, your analogy fails.
 
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Ken-1122

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I agree, but this has nothing to do with my point.

I agree, but again this has noting to do with my point.

Oh good grief. Nowhere did I say this. I actually gave facts that a majority of elementary school teachers are women and a majority of engineers are men. No where did I say only women should be elementary school teachers or that only men can be engineers.
So why did you mention it? I asked you to provide a list of roles that only apply to men; not women, and another list of roles that only apply to women; not men.

You responded with facts about men being engineers, and women being school teachers, with women preferring skirts and makeup, and men preferring jeans. If you didn’t mean these as examples of what should only apply to men or what only should apply to women, why did you even mention it? It seems I asked for you to provide one thing, and rather than respond to what I asked, you began answering questions nobody asked, and now you are accusing me of misrepresenting what you said. Let’s try it again.

Please provide a list of roles that only apply to men (never women)
And another list of roles that only apply to women (never men)
 
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Ken-1122

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Hmm... Clinical depression is all in your head if you've got it too, so I guess those people are just creating problems that don't exist too, ya?
Clinical depressed people are not demanding I act as if everything is fine the way they are.
How silly. I don't claim a transgender person is whatever gender they feel simply because I use whatever pronoun. I do not make a point to remind Christians at every opportunity that I don't share their beliefs, no, your analogy fails.
And I don’t go around reminding transgender people at every opportunity that I don’t share their beliefs either! But if I happen to talk to one, I refuse to pretend I share their beliefs. Now how is this different than when or if you talk to Christians?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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So why did you mention it? I asked you to provide a list of roles that only apply to men; not women, and another list of roles that only apply to women; not men.

You responded with facts about men being engineers, and women being school teachers, with women preferring skirts and makeup, and men preferring jeans. If you didn’t mean these as examples of what should only apply to men or what only should apply to women, why did you even mention it? It seems I asked for you to provide one thing, and rather than respond to what I asked, you began answering questions nobody asked, and now you are accusing me of misrepresenting what you said. Let’s try it again.

Here is the thing, I never said anywhere that there are roles only for women or only for men. Here is what I actually said.

A social construct is simply rules or ideas a society agrees upon and these change constantly. You don't get to decide by yourself what society should be like. Our society is slowly taking it seriously. We as a society have set up ideas as to what it means to be a woman or man in our society. What gender attributes women have and men have. A transgender person is simply saying that even though I am a biological man I identify with the social ideas of femininity as agreed upon by society. The attributes of masculinity and femininity are real.

Money is a social construction and it is real. The paper is worth very little but what is written on it is valuable and real.

What I said was a majority of men have certain attributes and a majority of women do as well, not all. Then I used facts such as elementary school teachers and engineers to say that men gravitate toward engineering and women elementary school teachers for examples. There must be a reason this is so based somewhat on their gender. This last statement we can discuss unless you want to call me more names?

Please provide a list of roles that only apply to men (never women)
And another list of roles that only apply to women (never men)
I cannot since there are not any. And as I explained just now I never said or implied that there were. You changed attributes to roles, not me. You are the one that denies a persons gender just because you disagree with it, not me. Notice, I have not called you any names. You did not like my answer because you basically asked me "do you like beating your wife" type question that had noting to do with what I said.
 
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Ken-1122

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But it didn't change.

When, for instance, the Supreme Court decided that the Fifth Amendment applied to state courts, nothing about the Constitution had changed at all. Merely the opinion of five people changed.
So.... the law didn't change; it's objective, but the subjective interpretation and enforcement of the law changed. do you agree?
 
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Ken-1122

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That which is objective is that which applies under all circumstances. Noticing that things change is irrelevant to whether something is objectively true or not. Objective realty cannot be something concocted by a person like an arbitrary rule that has been made up in an attempt to explain the world through abstraction. To observe an apple next to another apple is objective reality . To say that there are two apples is subjective statement. Two is a subjective concept. An apple is an objective reality but the word apple is a subjective abstraction.
How are you defining the difference between objective vs subjective? And what's your point?
 
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RDKirk

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So.... the law didn't change; it's objective, but the subjective interpretation and enforcement of the law changed. do you agree?

Words on paper are nothing. Ink does nothing, means nothing. Paper does nothing, means nothing.

July 20, 1969 marked the last day I had to comply with segregation laws, sitting in the segregated area of a movie theater. The fact that the Civil Rights Act had passed five years earlier was not yet relevant to those in that town who interpreted and enforced the law.

The subjective interpretation and enforcement of what is written on paper is the law.
 
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Ken-1122

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Here is the thing, I never said anywhere that there are roles only for women or only for men. Here is what I actually said.



What I said was a majority of men have certain attributes and a majority of women do as well, not all. Then I used facts such as elementary school teachers and engineers to say that men gravitate toward engineering and women elementary school teachers for examples. There must be a reason this is so based somewhat on their gender. This last statement we can discuss unless you want to call me more names?

I cannot since there are not any. And as I explained just now I never said or implied that there were. You changed attributes to roles, not me. You are the one that denies a persons gender just because you disagree with it, not me. Notice, I have not called you any names. You did not like my answer because you basically asked me "do you like beating your wife" type question that had noting to do with what I said.
I said
Gender is not real, it’s a social construct based on some subjective imaginations, that vary from person to person. I don’t think the concept of gender as is being redefined should be taken seriously by society.

You responded
A transgender person is simply saying that even though I am a biological man I identify with the social ideas of femininity as agreed upon by society.


Now here I disagreed with the idea there are social ideas of femininity as agreed upon by society. That is why I asked you to list some roles that only apply to men, and some that only apply to women. (perhaps I should have phrased it; social ideas of femininity as agreed upon by society, but I don’t see the difference between that and roles)


You responded by listing what men on average will gravitate towards, vs what women on average will gravitate towards; but this is not what I was asking! If you are going to agree that there are social ideas of femininity that society has agreed upon, I would like you to list some of these ideas of femininity that society has agreed up on, not what men and women gravitate towards.

Can you do that?

PS I apologize if I offended you that wasn't my intent. I was calling the ideas you were espousing sexist, I didn't mean it as a personal attack against you.
 
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Moral Orel

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Clinical depressed people are not demanding I act as if everything is fine the way they are.
So what?
And I don’t go around reminding transgender people at every opportunity that I don’t share their beliefs either!
Sure you would. You said that you would make sure to use the "he" or "she" that corresponds to their biology when you refer to them. Try as I might, I can't fathom a reason to not just use whichever they prefer. When I meet someone new, I tell them my name is Nicholas, but you can refer to me as Nick. Who cares if someone asks me to refer to them as "he" or "she"?

But even if there was some good reason to use "he" or "she" based on biology and not gender, you could still just use their name instead. But you're going to intentionally use the pronoun that you know is going to offend them. Using their proper name isn't playing along with their preferred gender, it's bypassing it.
But if I happen to talk to one, I refuse to pretend I share their beliefs.
I didn't say you should. I said you should just use their proper name and not address their gender at all. But you want to insist on reminding them that you disagree with what they're doing. Why should we care?
Now how is this different than when or if you talk to Christians?
Because I think about what I say and what might offend folks, and then I don't say those things. You think about what you say and how it might offend trans folks, and then say whatever you please.
 
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Ken-1122

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Words on paper are nothing. Ink does nothing, means nothing. Paper does nothing, means nothing.

July 20, 1969 marked the last day I had to comply with segregation laws, sitting in the segregated area of a movie theater. The fact that the Civil Rights Act had passed five years earlier was not yet relevant to those in that town who interpreted and enforced the law.

The subjective interpretation and enforcement of what is written on paper is the law.
I disagree; the law was still objective, the people tasked with enforcing the law were not enforcing the law correctly. Just like, math will always be objective even if the person tasked with teaching math teaches it wrong.
 
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Ken-1122

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So what?

Sure you would. You said that you would make sure to use the "he" or "she" that corresponds to their biology when you refer to them. Try as I might, I can't fathom a reason to not just use whichever they prefer. When I meet someone new, I tell them my name is Nicholas, but you can refer to me as Nick. Who cares if someone asks me to refer to them as "he" or "she"?

But even if there was some good reason to use "he" or "she" based on biology and not gender, you could still just use their name instead. But you're going to intentionally use the pronoun that you know is going to offend them. Using their proper name isn't playing along with their preferred gender, it's bypassing it.

I didn't say you should. I said you should just use their proper name and not address their gender at all. But you want to insist on reminding them that you disagree with what they're doing. Why should we care?
What on Earth are you talking about? I think I've been very clear; when speaking to a person; even if they are transgender, I only use the pronoun "you" or "your". The only time I use he or her is when speaking of them to somebody else. If the transgender interrupt our conversation to tell me they are a Xi or a Zi, I would inform them I am speaking about biology, not gender. I also said if I don't have time to explain biology vs gender to them, I would probably just refer to them by name rather than Zi or Xi

Because I think about what I say and what might offend folks, and then I don't say those things. You think about what you say and how it might offend trans folks, and then say whatever you please.
Oh; so if a Christian asks which church you go to, you will not admit you don't go to church for fear of offending them?
 
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Moral Orel

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What on Earth are you talking about? I think I've been very clear; when speaking to a person; even if they are transgender, I only use the pronoun "you" or "your". The only time I use he or her is when speaking of them to somebody else. If the transgender interrupt our conversation to tell me they are a Xi or a Zi, I would inform them I am speaking about biology, not gender. I also said if I don't have time to explain biology vs gender to them, I would probably just refer to them by name rather than Zi or Xi
Wow. You're just going to ignore things that contradict your predispositions aren't you? I already demonstrated a three person conversation to you. I'm not going to repeat myself indefinitely.

And why switch to "Xi" and "Zi"? I asked about "he" and "she". Let's stick with that.

And, just like I said, you're going to refer to them how you please instead of what won't be offensive to them. How is what you said different from my paraphrase? That you explained to them they shouldn't be offended?
Oh; so if a Christian asks which church you go to, you will not admit you don't go to church for fear of offending them?
How is that analogy apt? If a trans person asks you about your views on transgenderism, tell the truth. If someone doesn't like to be referred to by some words, don't do that. Why is that so hard? Why care?
 
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Ken-1122

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And why switch to "Xi" and "Zi"? I asked about "he" and "she". Let's stick with that.

And, just like I said, you're going to refer to them how you please instead of what won't be offensive to them. How is what you said different from my paraphrase? That you explained to them they shouldn't be offended?
As I said before, I address biology not gender. He, She is biology; I have no problem with that. It’s that Xi, Zi and the countless other pronouns I refuse to play into.
 
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Ken-1122

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Wow. You're just going to ignore things that contradict your predispositions aren't you? I already demonstrated a three person conversation to you. I'm not going to repeat myself indefinitely.
No I said I would address them according to their biology, or use their name if I cared not explain biology

And why switch to "Xi" and "Zi"? I asked about "he" and "she". Let's stick with that.

And, just like I said, you're going to refer to them how you please instead of what won't be offensive to them. How is what you said different from my paraphrase? That you explained to them they shouldn't be offended?
As I said before, I address biology not gender. He, She is biology; I have no problem with that. It’s that Xi, Zi and the countless other pronouns I refuse to play into
 
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Moral Orel

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No I said I would address them according to their biology, or use their name if I cared not explain biology
I know. And if a transgender woman lives her life like a woman, and has all the secondary characteristics of a female, and that "he" wants to be referred to as "she", you're not going to do that. You know that when she hears "he" instead of "she", it's going to offend her, but you're going to do it anyways. You aren't saying anything new in either of your posts. I've paraphrased you accurately. Now tell me why I should care about their biology when I use a pronoun. Why shouldn't pronouns refer to gender instead of biological sex? Ignore the "new" pronouns, I don't care about those.
 
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Ken-1122

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I know. And if a transgender woman lives her life like a woman, and has all the secondary characteristics of a female, and that "he" wants to be referred to as "she", you're not going to do that. You know that when she hears "he" instead of "she", it's going to offend her, but you're going to do it anyways. You aren't saying anything new in either of your posts. I've paraphrased you accurately. Now tell me why I should care about their biology when I use a pronoun. Why shouldn't pronouns refer to gender instead of biological sex? Ignore the "new" pronouns, I don't care about those.
As I've said before, if a person who looks like a man tells me they are a woman, I will assume they are a biological woman. What am I supposed to do check their genital?
 
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Sparagmos

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As I've said before, if a person who looks like a man tells me they are a woman, I will assume they are a biological woman. What am I supposed to do check their genital?
Transgender women do look like women.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I said
Gender is not real, it’s a social construct based on some subjective imaginations, that vary from person to person. I don’t think the concept of gender as is being redefined should be taken seriously by society.

You responded
A transgender person is simply saying that even though I am a biological man I identify with the social ideas of femininity as agreed upon by society.

Now here I disagreed with the idea there are social ideas of femininity as agreed upon by society. That is why I asked you to list some roles that only apply to men, and some that only apply to women. (perhaps I should have phrased it; social ideas of femininity as agreed upon by society, but I don’t see the difference between that and roles)
Roles and ideas of femininity are different. Roles are what a person does and ideas of femininity are how people think and act. At least this is what I am getting at. I did say this to answer this question:

I am not talking about gender roles or anything that 100% only applies to one gender. I am talking about personality traits, preferences etc. In our society it is acceptable for most women to wear dresses or skirts, most men do not want to wear dresses. Makeup is the same way, most men don't want to wear makeup in the same way they most women do. It is about how men and women are different in their personalities etc.

Now that above quote of mine I am talking generalities, averages. Ask most men if they want to wear a dress and most men will say no.

You responded by listing what men on average will gravitate towards, vs what women on average will gravitate towards; but this is not what I was asking!
But that is what I was talking about. I was not ever talking about specific roles for only men and only women. I probably was not clear enough.

If you are going to agree that there are social ideas of femininity that society has agreed upon, I would like you to list some of these ideas of femininity that society has agreed up on, not what men and women gravitate towards.

Can you do that?
I did above. There are lots of things that we associate with girls and boys, man and women whether we should or not is another topic but we still have these ideas in our heads. And some are valid for most genders. Some may not like the fact that we associate certain preferences to women and some to men but this is based on what we have experienced.

It is also a fact that men, especially young men, are more risk takers than women in general. Also, my wife has different emotional needs in a marriage than I do and most of her friends are the same way as well as mine. Surveys say that women are different than men in a lot of ways. This is not a bad thing but any good husband needs to recognize the differences and understand them. Two great books my wife and I read are "For Men Only" and "For Women Only". These two books have a lot of research that shows these general differences between the genders. These books were written by Christians. Men's and women's brains are different, the produce different attributes because they are physically different. Different parts of women's and men's brains have different relative size, interconnections, chemistry etc. and these differences cause these differences in gender attributes.

Nirao Shah, PhD has studied these brain differences his entire career and he says: "We think gender-specific behavior is a composite of all these modules, which, added up, give you your overall degree of maleness and femaleness,”

How men's and women's brains are different

Maleness and femaleness is a combination of culture and biology, but these differences do exist and they are on a continuum not one or the other, all people have empathy, openness, extravertness etc. but to different degrees.

PS I apologize if I offended you that wasn't my intent. I was calling the ideas you were espousing sexist, I didn't mean it as a personal attack against you.
Ok,no problem. But I disagree that my ideas were sexist when I used facts to back them up.
 
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