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A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Ken-1122, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God made them male AND female. Not male OR female. We are told: "they shall be one flesh." So the idea is to be united not divided. They call this "run and return". God made them male and female so that they could be joined back together and become one. Even as an individual we are to become one with ourselves. To often people are in conflict with them self when they should be in harmony.

    If men think they should be women or a women thinks she should be a man then they have already lost the battle because they have created division within themselves when they should be in agreement and in harmony with the way God made them.
     
  2. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    So if you don't know any better you'll accidentally not say things that offend them, and if you find out somehow, you'll intentionally say things that offend them. I keep asking, but you don't answer, why should I care about someone's biology when I use "he" or "she"?
     
  3. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    As I said before, "I call 'em as I see 'em."

    I've seen women who really were women but looked awfully masculine, and I've also seen the opposite.

    Generally speaking, if someone is really committed to Look A and thus expects to be referred to by the Look A pronoun, I'm not going to sweat over validating it.

    OTOH, if someone is going for Look A and demands to be called by the Look B pronoun, I'm probably going to ignore that.

    In the long run, it's not a major issue of life. It's not the sword to fall on, it's not the hill to die on.
     
  4. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    One in 500 people has an extra chromosome, either male or female. So you would think that has an effect on their appearance.
     
  5. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    How do you accidently not say something that offends somebody? By remaining silent by mistake??? IDK

    What do I find out about this person, and what is it that offends them?

    Perhaps you can ask your question so it's a little clearer.
    Who says you have to care about someone's biology?
     
  6. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    You accidentally didn't offend them by accidentally referring to their gender because you didn't know their biology.
    If you were to find out their biology, you would start offending them by using pronouns that align with their biology instead of their gender. If they feel bad when you do that, and it's no trouble to not do that, why not just not do it?
    It isn't much of a "fix" if you're just saying what you're going to do. You're suggesting what we should all do, ya? So why should I care what their biology is? Why not just refer to their gender? Then for average blokes like us, our biology and gender are the same so we won't get offended, and for people who it ain't the same, we don't offend them either.

    For folks that want me to use a new pronoun, I figure I could go one of two ways. Either I'll just use that pronoun like it's a proper name, or a nick-name, or I'll just use their proper name. I'm not put out by it, it isn't difficult, so why not find a way to not use the words that are going to offend them?
     
  7. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Like I said before, if they are close enough to hear me talking about them to someone else, I will probably just refer to them by name.
    I think the reason I am put off by it is because it makes no sense to me, and nobody has been able to explain it to me in a way that it makes sense, so I see no reason why anybody could justify being offended the way you say they are
     
  8. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    There's no justifiable reason for being offended by anything. Whatever offends you or anybody else isn't special. It's just feelings, irrational feelings. And people can feel offense over anything. There are no objectively offensive things. Why do some folks get offended at swear words? There's no good reason for it, who cares? Don't cuss around those folks. So what? Trans folks get offended at being referred to as a gender they don't feel reflects who they are, who cares why? Just use a slightly different monosyllabic word when you refer to them. So what?

    If someone says they're offended by something, and it doesn't put you out, why do it? Why not just make the tiniest of concessions so that folks don't feel bad?
     
  9. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I don't feel anybody has the right to insist I refer to them by a gender.
     
  10. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    Who said anything about insist? If someone tried to pass a law about it, I'm on your side. What if they ask nice? What if you just go ahead and assume that's what trans folk like because it's super-likely they do?
     
  11. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    How about if I kindly ask you to pretend I am a leprechaun, or a 100 yr old man, or a 12 yr old girl; when you speak about me to other people? Would you be willing to do something like that?
     
  12. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    How about you just go ahead and answer my question instead of dodging with a bad analogy?
     
  13. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Keep asking the same question over and over expecting a different answer huh? I'm afraid not, and the analogy does apply. The answer is...
    Chronologically I am not a 100 year old man , or I a 12 year old Girl; and biologically I am not a Leprechaun, a Xi, or Zi. In other words, it's not right! (right as in accurate, not moral)
     
  14. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    Let's say you did want me to pretend you were a Leprechaun. What specifically would that entail? Anything more than using a different monosyllabic pronoun than I might ordinarily be inclined? If so, then it's a bad analogy. And if gender is just a social construct, then using "he" and "she" to refer to gender isn't incorrect.
     
  15. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Whatever stereotypes I have about Leprechaun's you would need to apply those stereotypes to me.

    That's why instead of using gender, use biological sex
     
  16. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    See? You can't even come up with some specific thing that you might ask of me. It's a bad analogy because even you don't know what it has in common with using a different pronoun.
    What?? Your argument is getting awfully circular. "We should use pronouns to refer to biology because if we used them to refer to gender they would refer to the wrong biology sometimes"? Your reasoning is being reduced to nonsense. If you refer to gender, you wouldn't be incorrect.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  17. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Ask ME??? I said when you speak about me to other people. C'mon keep up!

    No, we should use pronouns to refer to biology because biology is real, gender (as currently being defined) is whatever thoughts a wild imagination might think up
     
  18. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    lol A transgender person would ask me to use whichever they prefer of "he" or "she", if you're a transleprechaun what would you ask me to do specifically? It's your analogy, show me the similarity. I'm keeping up just fine, even when you're chasing your own tail.
    No, gender in our conversation is still just men and women. I'm asking about "he" and "she". Yours is the only wild imagination in this conversation; leprechauns indeed. So why is it objectively better to refer to male and female instead of men and women? Or is this just your subjective opinion that your imagination has thought up? Why is referring to something that you call "real" better? Social constructs are real.

    By the way, you know that our proper names, you know, the things people refer to us as, are "whatever thoughts a wild imagination might think up" right?
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  19. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I would tell you what I believe it means to be a leprechaun and ask you to refer to me this way when you speak of me to others.

    I told you already I have no problem with he or she; that's in line with biology. It's that "Vis", "Sie", "Eir" and all the other made up stuff I have a problem with. (you're not keeping up)
     
  20. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    And for the umpteenth time, what would that entail? See, you just wanted to throw some nonsense out there and call it an analogy. But you can't explain what I'd have to actually do, so how is that a comparison? A transgender woman wants me to refer to her specifically as "she". What does a transleprechaun persona want me to refer to them specifically as?
    No, you do have a problem with referring to a transgender woman (biological male) as "she" and a transgender man (biological female) as "he". You're trying to use the folks who invent new pronouns as an excuse to not do even that. I'm keeping up fine.
     
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