A Parable about Age

[thaumaturgy]

Yes. If something you want is according to the will of the Father, if you are fervent while praying for it, if it is "effectual," and if you are righteous. That's 4 things you can measure more accurately than any other mortal, that just happen to be the same 4 qualifiers I already listed.

Raze, I'm not sure if you are tracking on this part of the conversation but let's assume that your prayer fails. What you have built here is a perfect way to figure out why it failed without actually understanding the failure.

Well maybe my prayer wasn't fervent enough. What's the minimum value of "Fervence" needed? Well, maybe my prayer wasn't God's will. That's a great one because it explains nothing except allows you to hide all the unknowns in a bigger unknown. Maybe I wasn't righteousness enough? No one is truly righteous 100%, so that's pretty much everyone.

We atheists on here are not telling you that you are wrong to believe in prayer, but this is why prayer doesn't seem real to us. If it has an effect on reality and it is of value to know about then surely there's actual ways to test its efficacy.

I know this faith stuff gets really uncomfortable around science.

Science seems hard and brutal and it often breaks those things we find so beautiful in our minds.

The real values of sciences isn't always helping us find new things, but causing us to question things we just "accept". Most scientific revolutions are the overturnings of simply "accepted wisdom".

Again, your prayers may very well be real and true! They certainly seem that way to you. And that's good for you. It brings you comfort.

But by the same token you cannot tell us atheists we simply "don't understand" the nature of prayer.

We do! It has done for you exactly what we would like it to have done for us. So we'd like to know why, when we were believers praying fervently for deliverance from whatever was hurting us, in our most humble and assymptotically righteous manner before the God we loved, why those prayers went unanswered. OR if the prayers were answered did it really mean we had "connected" with God? Or was it just chance that we prayed for something that happened to happen?

 

[sandwiches]

So you just validated my experience, while most atheists invalidate it via faulty logic.

So, the effects you claim to have experienced could've been empirically observed? If so, they could've been scientifically analyzed.

 

[sandwiches]

There is also the possibility of any individual being wrong

This was all that needed to be said.

Now, how do we distinguish the truth between two people whose claims of experiences contradict one another?

 

[quatona]

This was all that needed to be said.

Now, how do we distinguish the truth between two people whose claims of experiences contradict one another?

We pick the one that´s being claimed "undisputable" by the guy who had it?

 

[Tiberius]

So you just validated my experience, while most atheists invalidate it via faulty logic.

As long as your experience is empirically measurable, yes.

Yes. If something you want is according to the will of the Father, if you are fervent while praying for it, if it is "effectual," and if you are righteous. That's 4 things you can measure more accurately than any other mortal, that just happen to be the same 4 qualifiers I already listed.

How do you measure the will of the father? How do you measure the fervour of someone who is praying? How do you measure the effectualness of something (and why did you put it in quote marks)? And how do you measure righteousness?

On what basis do you make your false supposition here? I object that your objection has already been addressed, but I'll graciously furnish the sources again: (although IIRC the original quote I gave was way better, coming from a literal translation)

1 John 5:14 and James 5:16, for starters. Sorry to disappoint you.

You could have quoted the passages, y'know. Save me going to look them up...

Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

and

James? The book of James? Care to provide a link to this?

In any case, I don't see how the above quote fits into either the "will of the Father" or the "fervent, effectual, and of a righteous person" stuff you were talking about.

Yes, I am aware that your lack of understanding the nature of prayer is such that you not only can't use it effectively, you can't even ask an answerable question on the subject. You might remedy that if you apply yourself.

So you are completely unable to provide an actual example of a prayer that meets the conditions?

Has it ever happened in the past that a prayer has met the conditions you laid out? If so, why not just tell me about that? That's an example, isn't it?

 

[Nostromo]

Well, the first good reason would be ... you are an atheist. That really wasn't so hard, was it? The common sense in the following is so simple as to almost be a tautology in this context:

"whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." (Hebrews 11:6, ESV)

You seem to be confusing "can't" with "won't".

 

[quatona]

Personally, I think, if I found out that somebody didn't believe in me, that wouldn't make it difficult for me to believe in them. I could still, say, speak to them. I could still walk up to them and see them and talk to them.

Personally, I have never had any problem making my existence known to someone whom I wanted to believe in my existence, in the first place.

 

[GA777]

Let's say an account exists that has 1 dollar deposited into it once a year.

Bank records show two things:

1. The account shows a balance of $4,570,000,000.00.
2. The account was opened 6000 years ago.

Evolutionists say #1 is correct and #2 must be in error.

YECs say #1 must be in error and #2 is correct.

Embedded Agers say both are correct, because the account must have been opened with an initial deposit of 4.57 billion dollars (-6000).

Very interesting.

Even atheists who dont believe in God must believe in this because the 1st ancestors of humans must have been grown enough,they must have been mature when they were existant for 1 second,because if they were babies,they wouldnt have survived.


Deuteronomy 4:29 : And if you search for him with all your heart and soul, you will find him.

“We seek God in books, but it is in prayer that we find Him. Prayer is the key that opens the heart of God.” Padre Pio.

So in other words,when you search for God with all your heart and all your soul through praying,you will find him.
I'm pretty sure if anyone does this,and is serious about it,he will get solid proof,just like countless of people experienced (Proof: testimonies)

Prayers are answered when they agree with God's will,and God's will is to perform justice and salvation of the spirits,whereas it is for the prayer or for the one prayed for,or for all of us.

 

[razeontherock]

This was all that needed to be said.

Now, how do we distinguish the truth between two people whose claims of experiences contradict one another?

You have yet to bring any example of this, on a situation that has relevance to the discussion at hand. I mention this because it is presented as a given that such contradictions exist - and I find they don't.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Very interesting.

Even atheists who dont believe in God must believe in this because the 1st ancestors of humans must have been grown enough,they must have been mature when they were existant for 1 second,because if they were babies,they wouldnt have survived.


Deuteronomy 4:29 : And if you search for him with all your heart and soul, you will find him.

“We seek God in books, but it is in prayer that we find Him. Prayer is the key that opens the heart of God.” Padre Pio.

So in other words,when you search for God with all your heart and all your soul through praying,you will find him.
I'm pretty sure if anyone does this,and is serious about it,he will get solid proof,just like countless of people experienced (Proof: testimonies)

Prayers are answered when they agree with God's will,and God's will is to perform justice and salvation of the spirits,whereas it is for the prayer or for the one prayed for,or for all of us.

Sounds like so much wish thinking. And what, exactly is solid proof? And why can you not find it without having to wish reeeeaaalllly hard first?

 

[razeontherock]

How do you measure the will of the father? How do you measure the fervour of someone who is praying? How do you measure the effectualness of something (and why did you put it in quote marks)? And how do you measure righteousness?

Perhaps at long last we have arrived at communication! You cannot possibly measure such things sufficiently to account for them in any research.

You could have quoted the passages, y'know. Save me going to look them up...



and

James? The book of James? Care to provide a link to this?

In any case, I don't see how the above quote fits into either the "will of the Father" or the "fervent, effectual, and of a righteous person" stuff you were talking about.

Not a requirement or anything, but you could have actually read the part of the thread you were responding to, where it was all quoted in the first place. Instead, you merely said it "doesn't sound like anything in the Bible." And then if you do go back to find what you skipped over earlier, it would help if you found what was cited; i.e. 1 John and John are two different books.

So you are completely unable to provide an actual example of a prayer that meets the conditions?

YES! At long last, we have communication here as well. The power of prayer is NOT something any human does or possesses; it is God who answers! and that's not exactly under laboratory control.

Has it ever happened in the past that a prayer has met the conditions you laid out? If so, why not just tell me about that? That's an example, isn't it?

Again, many many times the Lord has seen fit to answer my prayers. And as I said before, this has been on topics ranging from life-threatening dire emergencies, to the mundane and trivial. Exposing such things is inappropriate here for many reasons; it is off topic to the thread, and it is in the company of those who will scoff regardless what is said, for starters.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Perhaps at long last we have arrived at communication! You cannot possibly measure such things sufficiently to account for them in any research.



Not a requirement or anything, but you could have actually read the part of the thread you were responding to, where it was all quoted in the first place. Instead, you merely said it "doesn't sound like anything in the Bible." And then if you do go back to find what you skipped over earlier, it would help if you found what was cited; i.e. 1 John and John are two different books.



YES! At long last, we have communication here as well. The power of prayer is NOT something any human does or possesses; it is God who answers! and that's not exactly under laboratory control.



Again, many many times the Lord has seen fit to answer my prayers. And as I said before, this has been on topics ranging from life-threatening dire emergencies, to the mundane and trivial. Exposing such things is inappropriate here for many reasons; it is off topic to the thread, and it is in the company of those who will scoff regardless what is said, for starters.

The FSM has answered many of my prayers as well, also ranging from life-threatening dire emergencies, to the mundane and trivial. Every good thing that has happened in my life is a direct result of petitioning the FSM. And don't try to tell me it's not true, becuase it's my own personal experience, belief and conviction, and nothing can change it.

 

[GA777]

Sounds like so much wish thinking. And what, exactly is solid proof? And why can you not find it without having to wish reeeeaaalllly hard first?

You will know what,it is like when you try it.

hint : that means never

 

[GA777]

The FSM has answered many of my prayers as well, also ranging from life-threatening dire emergencies, to the mundane and trivial. Every good thing that has happened in my life if a direct result of petitioning the FSM. And don't try to tell me it's not true, becuase it's my own personal experience, belief and conviction, and nothing can change it.

I'm sorry but I see you need a professional help then,because you are the only one with such experiences.

 

[razeontherock]

Personally, I have never had any problem making my existence known to someone whom I wanted to believe in my existence, in the first place.

2 key differences:

1) you assume God insists in His own way like you might
2) you have a physical existence.

Any combination of those things, or either one, changes the whole issue.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

I'm sorry but I see you need a professional help then,because you are the only one with such experiences.

What?!? Are you suggesting that people who believe in unseen entities need professional help? Maybe you should look into this.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

2 key differences:

1) you assume God insists ion His own way like you might
2) you have a physical existence.

Any combination of those things, or either one, changes the whole issue.

No, we're assuming that a supernatural being capable of creating billions of galaxies, filled with trillions of stars, who supposedly loves us, desires a "personal relationship" with us, it's 'finest creation,' makes itself so hard to find. So much so, that there are literally thousands of different ideas of who "god" is, and most are diametrically opposed to the other. Kind of makes you wonder, if not, it should.

 

[GA777]

What?!? Are you suggesting that people who believe in unseen entities need professional help? Maybe you should look into this.

nice interpretation you've got here.Better try next time.

No, we're assuming that a supernatural being capable of creating billions of galaxies, filled with trillions of stars, who supposedly loves us, desires a "personal relationship" with us, it's 'finest creation,' makes itself so hard to find. So much so, that there are literally thousands of different ideas of who "god" is, and most are diametrically opposed to the other. Kind of makes you wonder, if not, it should.

You only need to seek from your heart, for a short period,and you'll get to know whom he really is.But you're too good to seek the one who created you of course.

 

[Nostromo]

I'm sorry but I see you need a professional help then,because you are the only one with such experiences.

Have you tried googling "FSM answers prayers"?

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Have you tried googling "FSM answers prayers"?

People really should look into the FSM. He's never failed to answer my prayers!