A Parable about Age

[razeontherock]

I prayed fervently and emotionally. I begged God to show me some sign of his existence. Nothing. So, it's MY experience that prayer had no effect on my life. Is that evidence that prayer has no effect and possibly that God doesn't exist?

You're not the only one to say this. I have encountered various others across CF, and at least one in this thread. Please don't think I don't have compassion on your situation, or that I kid myself that I have all the answers.

In some specific situations, God has given me some insight into what has been lacking in certain individuals. Consistent with the scientific principle of 'control,' I do look for what differed in my case from yours. Emotion and fervor is only one part of the equation ...

 

[sandwiches]

You're not the only one to say this. I have encountered various others across CF, and at least one in this thread. Please don't think I don't have compassion on your situation, or that I kid myself that I have all the answers.

In some specific situations, God has given me some insight into what has been lacking in certain individuals. Consistent with the scientific principle of 'control,' I do look for what differed in my case from yours. Emotion and fervor is only one part of the equation ...

Well, at the time, faith was definitely part of it. Now, if it was the wrong type of faith or not enough of it, isn't the point. The point is: When we encounter differing or conflicting experiences differ, can we use our humans senses and reasoning to tell who's wrong and right?

 

[AV1611VET]

I prayed fervently and emotionally. I begged God to show me some sign of his existence.

Even though God wrote in His Diary that there would be no signs in the coming dispensation?

Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Not at all! The bolded phrase is 100% inaccurate, unless you fall prey to petty bickering.

So the God who exhorts each of us to love our enemy as our friend is the same god who suggests to some of his followers that they'll get 72 virgins and automatic entry to paradise if they kill a couple thousand innocent "infidels"?

Interesting.

How about the God who demands only that we believe in his only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ and accept him as our savior in order to achieve salvation and get into heaven, is the same one as all the other religions that have no such requirement? Will these other religious adherents get into heaven too?

Will the Jews who originally gave us the concept of Yahweh God get into heaven?

OR did all these folks just "get it wrong" and ended up worshiping the wrong way their entire lives, but somehow believing their faith as fervently as you do yours?

 

[razeontherock]

So the God who exhorts each of us to love our enemy as our friend is the same god who suggests to some of his followers that they'll get 72 virgins and automatic entry to paradise if they kill a couple thousand innocent "infidels"?

Interesting.

That really isn't what Islam teaches, just in case you were wondering.

 

[Davian]

I prayed fervently and emotionally. I begged God to show me some sign of his existence. Nothing. So, it's MY experience that prayer had no effect on my life. Is that evidence that prayer has no effect and possibly that God doesn't exist?

Even though God wrote in His Diary that there would be no signs in the coming dispensation?

Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

Which generation does this text speak to? Or do you just wave this around as needed?

 

[razeontherock]

Which generation does this text speak to?

The term "generation" is very significant in the Bible. It is not a physical term, but Spiritual. Until one realizes what this refers to, much of Scripture draws a blank. This generation existed in King David's day, and still exists now.

The escape is to be re-generated, available to all (Not as hard as it seems)

 

[Davian]

The term "generation" is very significant in the Bible. It is not a physical term, but Spiritual. Until one realizes what this refers to, much of Scripture draws a blank. This generation existed in King David's day, and still exists now.

The escape is to be re-generated, available to all (Not as hard as it seems)

That does not make any sense. Where does the bible provide that definition?

 

[Tiberius]

Perhaps at long last we have arrived at communication! You cannot possibly measure such things sufficiently to account for them in any research.

Then they cannot have any effect in the universe (any effect is measurable, at least in theory, and thus can be accounted for scientifically). Thus prayer has no effect.

Not a requirement or anything, but you could have actually read the part of the thread you were responding to, where it was all quoted in the first place. Instead, you merely said it "doesn't sound like anything in the Bible." And then if you do go back to find what you skipped over earlier, it would help if you found what was cited; i.e. 1 John and John are two different books.

Okay, my bad, I did misread that part. Which is why it would have been so much better if you;d quoted the passages...

In any case, it seems to me that the particular wording there doesn't define what is needed in order to get God to listen and respond to prayers, but only to provide an explanation if the prayer is not answered. It lets you say, "Oh well, I guess your prayer wasn't in accordance with God's will" or "I guess your prayer wasn't an effectual prayer", but it never tells you what you must do to make sure that your prayer IS according to God's will, or what you must do to make sure that your prayer IS effectual.

YES! At long last, we have communication here as well. The power of prayer is NOT something any human does or possesses; it is God who answers! and that's not exactly under laboratory control.

Did you read what I said? I asked for an example of a prayer that met the conditions. I did not ask about whether humans possessed the power of prayer, nor did I ask about who answers.

Again, many many times the Lord has seen fit to answer my prayers. And as I said before, this has been on topics ranging from life-threatening dire emergencies, to the mundane and trivial. Exposing such things is inappropriate here for many reasons; it is off topic to the thread, and it is in the company of those who will scoff regardless what is said, for starters.

So you have first hand experience of a prayer which fits my request for an example, and yet you claimed that such prayers do not exist...

My mind boggles.

BTW, this talk of the FSM is likely to be interpreted as a mocking of Christianity, which got another thread closed down when I started talking about how my toaster answers prayers...

 

[quatona]

You assume God is responsible for an individual's lack of Faith.

No. I am assuming that god would be capable of giving everyone what they need to believe in his existence if god wished so.
"Faith" and "responsibility" are completely different issues, superimposed by you on my actual statement and argument. But nice try at an evasion, anyway.

 

[GA777]

And yet when we apply statistics they look exactly the same. Odd that.

Not at all.Just search google and you'll find that the response of GOd is nowhere near the fsm (he answered none).Countless prayers get answered that even many miracles keep happening to fulfill some prayers every now by the christian God , if they agree with the will of the father (bringing justice and salvation) which is necessary.

you can search "god answered my prayer" and you'll get tonnes of results.
And which statistics are you talking about?

 

[AV1611VET]

Which generation does this text speak to? Or do you just wave this around as needed?

Did you read sandwiches' post?

I prayed fervently and emotionally. I begged God to show me some sign of his existence. Nothing.

Which generation do you think this text speaks to?

 

[GA777]

I prayed fervently and emotionally. I begged God to show me some sign of his existence. Nothing. So, it's MY experience that prayer had no effect on my life. Is that evidence that prayer has no effect and possibly that God doesn't exist?

You didnt because it didnt agree with the will of the father.You need to pray from your heart (after having faith of course) and invite the holy spirit through praying,ask for your sins forgiveness and promise that you're ready to seriously change and mean it (like praying-going to church-reading the bible-avoiding sin as much as possible etc.) and you dont have to ask God for proof,he knows what you need more than you.And it's a very easy thing to do,yet many still dont care to do such things.And not long ago,an atheist I knew prayed,and he started believing (got evidence after receiving the holy spirit), so you have to do some efforts (faith and prayer) in order that God does something he isnt meant to do (give you proof) and if you look the web,you'll see many people who experienced undescribable joyful moments while praying,many saw angels/demons,had a nde etc.. and seem real about it and claim that they had a miracle etc..
Why would so many people lie?And lie for a constant of 2000 years?(Such experiences were always said to have happened), and 99% dont have an agenda for that (like receiving money etc.) and the experiences always have pretty much the same things in common.And you can easily google this and get countless results.

 

[Greg1234]

So the God who exhorts each of us to love our enemy as our friend is the same god who suggests to some of his followers that they'll get 72 virgins and automatic entry to paradise if they kill a couple thousand innocent "infidels"?

Debunking the ‘Suicide for 72 Virgins’ Myth « The Ugly Truth

Interesting.

How about the God who demands only that we believe in his only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ and accept him as our savior in order to achieve salvation and get into heaven, is the same one as all the other religions that have no such requirement? Will these other religious adherents get into heaven too?

Will the Jews who originally gave us the concept of Yahweh God get into heaven?

OR did all these folks just "get it wrong" and ended up worshiping the wrong way their entire lives, but somehow believing their faith as fervently as you do yours?

Rom 2:10
Rom 3:21-26
Rom 10:10-13
Rom 11:28
1 Cor 3:4
1 Cor 3:21-23
1 Cor 8:1-6
1 Cor 12:12-13
Gal 3:27-29
Eph 3:6
Col 3:11

 

[Tiberius]

Not at all.Just search google and you'll find that the response of GOd is nowhere near the fsm (he answered none).Countless prayers get answered that even many miracles keep happening to fulfill some prayers every now by the christian God , if they agree with the will of the father (bringing justice and salvation) which is necessary.

you can search "god answered my prayer" and you'll get tonnes of results.
And which statistics are you talking about?

Of course. it's called confirmation bias. People remember the times when something worked, and forget the times it didn't work. People get excited when they think God answered their prayer, but they forget about all the times he did not answer it.

Prayer's Power to Heal Strangers Is Examined

 

[Greg1234]

BTW, this talk of the FSM is likely to be interpreted as a mocking of Christianity,

Really? Next thing you know drivers will interpret Lokvar, a volatile, flammable liquid mixture of hydrocarbons, obtained from petroleum, and used as fuel for internal-combustion engines, as a solvent, etc, as mocking of gasoline.

which got another thread closed down when I started talking about how my toaster answers prayers...

And next thing you know the way Lokvar fuels cars will shut down expressways. Why not just create a service lane for Lokvarians? Additionally, people have always worshipped idols and revered physical representations. But if a toaster is your cup of tea, hey, to every dog his bone.

 

[Tiberius]

Don't you have anything on-topic to contribute?

 

[GA777]

Of course. it's called confirmation bias. People remember the times when something worked, and forget the times it didn't work. People get excited when they think God answered their prayer, but they forget about all the times he did not answer it.

Prayer's Power to Heal Strangers Is Examined

Because that doesnt agree with the will of the father.And not everyone can do miracles.Faith,fasting,and praying are needed in an excessive way,some may be able to,but after lots of efforts.God only gives the authority for people who deserve to perform miracles.When he answers many prayers,it is highly unlikely that he doesnt exist.You have to understand that it is God who does the miracles through the people,and to do that through the people,those people must be satisfying and worthy to use for him.He wont do that to someone who will claim that he did it on his own for example.And even Jesus didnt do miracles in some areas to the sick,because that would have been against the will of his father (which is also his will btw.) because those people are faithless and looking for a sign and of course,arent worthy of receiving these miracles.Some for example,no matter what power you may have in healing,you wont be able to heal their blindness for example,because God sometimes put that on purpose because that would be the only way for them to get saved etc. . I know for example my ex-teacher,he was a muslim and so into islam,his daughter's life was completely hopeless,so he left everything and promised to be a Christian and help people to christianity and always make a testimony to bring people to the love of Christ If his daughter would survive (after asking Christ to heal her and praying for some time) ,and she did.He was very rich,and his parents left him when they knew his intention after his daughter's healing,and wanted to even kill him but he ran away,and he can barely now satisfy his hunger with the money he has now.If people show would show such faith after miracles,God would do them all the time.

There's no need to discuss much of God's will here,because it is very complex and beyond our normal understanding,as he is infinite in intelligence , and the smartest of us is fooler than the fool compared to him.So his will is totally different from ours,and he sees things differently.But you have to understand 2 main things, his will is to accomplish justice and salvation of the souls

 

[sandwiches]

You didnt because it didnt agree with the will of the father.You need to pray from your heart (after having faith of course) and invite the holy spirit through praying,ask for your sins forgiveness and promise that you're ready to seriously change and mean it (like praying-going to church-reading the bible-avoiding sin as much as possible etc.) and you dont have to ask God for proof,he knows what you need more than you.

Well, whatever it is I needed to believe, I didn't get.
"He gave it to you but you missed it." Then, obviously it wasn't what I needed was it? I gave a starving child in Africa some food here in Texas but he missed it; his fault not mine.

And it's a very easy thing to do,yet many still dont care to do such things.And not long ago,an atheist I knew prayed,and he started believing (got evidence after receiving the holy spirit), so you have to do some efforts (faith and prayer) in order that God does something he isnt meant to do (give you proof) and if you look the web,you'll see many people who experienced undescribable joyful moments while praying,many saw angels/demons,had a nde etc.. and seem real about it and claim that they had a miracle etc..

That's good for that atheist. I have no such experiences.

Why would so many people lie?And lie for a constant of 2000 years?(Such experiences were always said to have happened), and 99% dont have an agenda for that (like receiving money etc.) and the experiences always have pretty much the same things in common.And you can easily google this and get countless results.

My point about that comment was lost on you, though. I am not saying that these people couldn't be right or aren't right. I am saying that you're using YOUR subjective experience and that of many others, which cannot be empirically analyzed, as evidence but my subjective experience somehow doesn't count as evidence of anything other than my failings. If these experiences cannot be analyzed, how can we be sure whose experiences are correct?

 

[sandwiches]

Even though God wrote in His Diary that there would be no signs in the coming dispensation?

Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

Tell that to the people who claim to have experienced all kinds of divine events. If anything, by your own admission, it seems my claim of lack of signs is more in line with the Bible the claims of experiences of signs.