A Parable about Age

[Nostromo]

I can understand his conundrum, but you will probably never solve it for him any moreso than any of us who started debating him on this topic a few years back.

Yeah I know, but I've got to keep myself out of trouble somehow

Sure, but there shouldn´t be much of a problem to demonstrate the differences between his beliefs and scientific findings (despite his desperate attempts to veil them by using obscure language):
Does he believe that the earth has been existing for a couple of million years? No, he doesn´t.

Problem is I don't think he much cares if his beliefs mesh with scientific findings.

 

[razeontherock]

And how do you not see that by definition, anything that makes a difference in the universe is measurable and therefore scientific?

Simply because that's not true.

Any mechanism that causes a difference in the world is measurable in a quantitative manner, because we can measure the change produced. it doesn't have to be in a lab.

Again, sorry but no.

Could you quote those two passages again?

1) It needs to be something in the will of the Father, and 2) fervent, effectual, and of a righteous person.

And can you give an example of a prayer that God would answer in the positive?

First of all, it needs to meet the above criteria. Just that much and you've stepped outside the realm of science. Next, the only thing one could cite would be past tense; nothing predictive. See how much trouble your assertion is in?

 

[Jazer]

You seem to be under the illusion that you're making some kind of point.

The point is that man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart.

 

[Tiberius]

Simply because that's not true.

Could you give an example of something I can measure myself that is not scientific in nature?

Again, sorry but no.

A drought causes a change in the population of gazelles, which in turn causes a change in the population of the predators that prey upon them. This is a mechanism that causes a difference in the world, is measurable in a quantitative manner, and we can measure the change produced. it fits my criteria precisely.

1) It needs to be something in the will of the Father, and 2) fervent, effectual, and of a righteous person.

I'm sorry, i thought you said you were talking about scripture passages. That doesn't sound like it's from the Bible.

First of all, it needs to meet the above criteria. Just that much and you've stepped outside the realm of science. Next, the only thing one could cite would be past tense; nothing predictive. See how much trouble your assertion is in?

You can only pray for stuff that has already happened?

And what about all those people who pray to God to help them find their car keys? And to make the touchdown in football to win the big game?

Besides, you didn't answer the question. I asked for an example of such a prayer, not what qualities the prayer would need.

 

[Nostromo]

The point is that man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart.

What does that have to do with the topic?

 

[thaumaturgy]

1) It needs to be something in the will of the Father, and 2) fervent, effectual, and of a righteous person.

...
First of all, it needs to meet the above criteria. Just that much and you've stepped outside the realm of science.

If the Prayer has an effect in the real world then neither of these thing remove it from scientific investigation.

Unless it is God's will that man should be counfounded and unable to ascertain the power of prayer to affect things in reality.

Next, the only thing one could cite would be past tense; nothing predictive. See how much trouble your assertion is in?

The "trouble" really then is for any claims that prayer is effective in the real world. Since you can't know if it is effective until after the fact and one of the things that makes it ineffective can be "the Fathers Will" or if the pray-er was insufficiently fervent or by one of lesser righteousness you have an unfalsifiable claim.

You can tell us Prayer affects reality, but what you are really saying is "Prayer can affect reality except when it doesn't".

As they say "God answers all prayers, but sometimes the answer is 'no'".

So, as an alternative to Sandwiches' first question I will pose this:

If a follower of Hinduism were to make the same claim about prayer to some Hindu god, would it convince you of the power of prayer to Ganesh?

 

[Nostromo]

First of all, it needs to meet the above criteria. Just that much and you've stepped outside the realm of science. Next, the only thing one could cite would be past tense; nothing predictive. See how much trouble your assertion is in?

What you seem to be saying is that we cannot know whether something happened as a result of prayer, but you can. Why is that?

 

[thaumaturgy]

What you seem to be saying is that we cannot know whether something happened as a result of prayer, but you can. Why is that?

BINGO! FTW.

This is the nature of all religious debates. Does faith/religion/spiritual belief/"relationship with God" have a real-world impact external to the believers or is it limited to the psychological boost it gives the believers?

If it is the former then surely it can be seen by all and act as the greatest testament to the reality of God. If it is the latter then why would one need anything that impacts the real world? God can live inside the believer.

But the real problem is; most believers are just like us atheists in that part of them really wants to have some sort of evidence that the belief is "justified". It is a natural human desire.

We all far fall short of the goal and we all hold beliefs that are untenable. I no less than any others, in fact maybe more! But in a sense when someone like Raze comes on and says he's seen real world impacts that were incontrovertible then he is showing that he values some sort of "real world" manifestation of the hope of faith.

I'm not saying he didn't have these experiences, far from it! But from our side of things we are skeptical.

Which brings us back to Sandwiches' truly wonderful question:

1) Are personal experiences by others, which contradict yours, evidence that what they're saying is true?

In a real sense this is the essence of all faith-claims. What if someone experiences something that they feel just as sure is true?

 

[razeontherock]

Maturity is what comes with history. There is no such thing as inate maturity.

You seem to be missing the main points in this thread. Somebody posted the picture of a remote section of the Universe, said to be so far away that the light from it wasn't long after the big bang. What do we see? Mature galaxies, and nothing really any different than what we have today.

Now when I first saw that picture I didn't automatically conclude our science is correct and God created things with "embedded age," but if you are to believe the current state of cosmology that makes more sense than anything else.

Then you have the whole Adam and Eve created mature thing ...

 

[razeontherock]

And then when asked to explain how, you provided nothing but excuses not to.

Look at context and see you reject and English and substitute your own ... whatever you'd like to call this. To preserve context, I thoroughly explained how a lack of understanding the nature of prayer is more than enough to render the results of the so-called scientific study on the results of prayer meaningless. You might as well do a study on whale watching in the Sahara and conclude whales are extinct.

 

[razeontherock]

It's irrelevant where it happens. If empirical observation by humans is possible, then scientific analysis is possible

So you just validated my experience, while most atheists invalidate it via faulty logic.

 

[razeontherock]

Now. I noticed you didn't answer this question:

1) Are personal experiences by others, which contradict yours, evidence that what they're saying is true?

What's your answer to this?

Too vague to answer. Generally speaking what you have in cases like what you allude to, is people not actually contradicting. This happens on CF all the time. 2 people will be in an argument, and it may even get heated. Both people are talking past each other. Sometimes they're saying the same thing but in such different words neither realizes it, other times people are using the same words but referring to entirely different things. The supposed contradiction is non-existent.

this isn't a new idea either; perhaps you've heard the Eastern story of blind people and the elephant? Anyway I try to apply this type of thinking, which I believe is called "tolerance."

There is also the possibility of any individual being wrong

 

[Jazer]

The "trouble" really then is for any claims that prayer is effective in the real world. Since you can't know if it is effective until after the fact and one of the things that makes it ineffective can be "the Fathers Will" or if the pray-er was insufficiently fervent or by one of lesser righteousness you have an unfalsifiable claim.

James 5:16 "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much".

You have to know how to pray. It is difficult for science to come up with conclusive results on prayer because they do not know what is effectual and what is not. Even religious people often have trouble grasping the concept on how to pray. Even though Jesus teaches us how to pray: Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done. When we know the will of God, then we will know how to pray accordingly. Paul prayed for the thorn in his flesh to be removed and God did not remove it. Only then Paul understood the purpose was to keep him humble.

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." niv

 

[razeontherock]

So can we "test" if prayer has an effect on reality?

If so, how? If not, why not?

I've done a pretty good and thorough job of explaining why not; there are variables that are simply beyond our control. The biggest one of those being God Himself.

Again I will reiterate that I can think of absolutely no concept or being who is more important than God. If God is real, why is it so hard to test for this most fundamental and important of beings?

He is Spirit. Even Wile. E. Coyote has yet to invent his handy-dandy Acme Spirit tester. And yet we absolutely CAN "test for Him," on His own terms:

"O taste and see that the LORD [is] good" (Psalm 34:8)

Does that have any meaning at all to you?

One thing I've noticed that seems to be a pretty consistent difference between atheists and Christians, is that atheists will see one such passage on a topic (like this, for example) and if they can't immediately grasp it's relevant application they will assume all others are equally beyond their comprehension. A Christian will "seek the Lord," and come across another passage that sheds some Light on the subject, and then later the first passage will also start to make sense.

I also note this is a consistent theme throughout the Bible, not limited to but most clearly illustrated via Moses' first experience. This type of thinking, while not on a scientific topic, certainly applies the same sort of critical thinking skills you espouse. And such is the nature of Faith!

ESPECIALLY In light of the fact that this God presumably loves us so much he became his only begotten son and sacrificed himself to himself on the cross to atone his creation (us) to him.

You just gave not the reader's digest version, but the Jesus Christ Superstar version; you omitted the Resurrection. You're asking for proof, and Jesus repeated our Faith will depend on His own Resurrection. He said that many times, in many ways, in the hopes that sooner or later we would "get it."

God is like that

 

[razeontherock]

I am always intrigued by that, because it seemed rather different for Abraham in Gen 18:1-3. But I'm sure there's some exegetical explanation for that.

Yes, someone posted a long list of Scripture that uses language depicting individuals "seeing" God. The understanding that reconciles this apparent contradiction is contained in my recent reply to sandwiches on this same topic; i.e., they aren't talking about "seeing" God in the same way.

A very good illustration of this is of course Jesus Himself, saying "if you have seen Me, (Him) you have seen the Father." Of course this double entendre confused His Disciples, and He basically chided them for being "slow of heart." Our physical eye cannot see Spirit, since that is Spiritual and not physical. There is however a way of understanding that our Spirit also has similar functions as our body, and "the eye of the Spirit" (if you will) is Faith. I think that's relevant here, considering all the twists this conversation has taken.

So to marry inter-faith terminology, being third eye blind is also the state of being spiritually dead, with unforgiven sin separating a person from God the Father. And it seems to me that changing this condition is the greatest miracle of all ...

 

[razeontherock]

Could you give an example of something I can measure myself that is not scientific in nature?

Yes. If something you want is according to the will of the Father, if you are fervent while praying for it, if it is "effectual," and if you are righteous. That's 4 things you can measure more accurately than any other mortal, that just happen to be the same 4 qualifiers I already listed.

I'm sorry, i thought you said you were talking about scripture passages. That doesn't sound like it's from the Bible.

On what basis do you make your false supposition here? I object that your objection has already been addressed, but I'll graciously furnish the sources again: (although IIRC the original quote I gave was way better, coming from a literal translation)

1 John 5:14 and James 5:16, for starters. Sorry to disappoint you.

Besides, you didn't answer the question. I asked for an example of such a prayer, not what qualities the prayer would need.

Yes, I am aware that your lack of understanding the nature of prayer is such that you not only can't use it effectively, you can't even ask an answerable question on the subject. You might remedy that if you apply yourself.

 

[razeontherock]

If the Prayer has an effect in the real world then neither of these thing remove it from scientific investigation.

It most certainly does! Prayer is not some incantation, repeatable under controlled conditions. It is God who affects our physical realm, sometimes / partially through prayer. We have Scripture re: righteous men who could not pray for a certain thing requested of them. Why? There is a relationship here.

Again, the fact that it is of Spiritual nature removes it from scientific study, although organized thinking skills (such as gained via scientific pursuit) can certainly be applied to Spiritual efforts, making them more rewarding.

Unless it is God's will that man should be counfounded and unable to ascertain the power of prayer to affect things in reality.

Under what conditions? And in what sort of relationship?

(Isa 59:2) But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear."

The Good News is that no one needs to remain in said condition. (But fixing this does not automatically grant a working understanding of prayer)

The "trouble" really then is for any claims that prayer is effective in the real world.

Only if a Christian were trying to prove something via scientific means. Which is no problem at all, since Faith is a different pursuit

So, as an alternative to Sandwiches' first question I will pose this:

If a follower of Hinduism were to make the same claim about prayer to some Hindu god, would it convince you of the power of prayer to Ganesh?

And consistent with my reply to sandwiches, I am not at all convinced that their God is any different entity at all. How many Names does the Biblical God have? I certainly can't count, and I don't know anyone who has been able to. Why would He not reveal Himself to them according to their ability to receive, just as He has done with everyone else?

OTOH, there ARE unholy spirits in this world, and there are times when they will both be involved in religion, and answer prayer. I do believe we will see an increase of that sort of thing in our lifetime, but I do not know enough about Hinduism to speak to any specific point on this plane.

I personally give people the benefit of the doubt for various reasons, one of which is I have known sincere people whom God blesses from every walk of life and belief system I have encountered. And vice versa! There are insincere people of every profession of Faith who totally violate God's precepts, including the ones they know of. So in summary, what you're asking here really is not any dividing line, although I admit it does seem like it should be.

 

[razeontherock]

What you seem to be saying is that we cannot know whether something happened as a result of prayer, but you can. Why is that?

This is one of the better questions lately, showing good communication. I can only know something happening as a result of prayer when God lets me know! There are also times when God will let one individual know such a thing, but no one else. I do have an inkling of why some He does this in some circumstances, but I'm sure that is not even "the tip of the iceberg."

Now as to how an atheist would know if something were the result of prayer: how would you go about knowing such a thing? I find that an odd situation to consider.

 

[razeontherock]

This is the nature of all religious debates. Does faith/religion/spiritual belief/"relationship with God" have a real-world impact external to the believers

No! There is an inside-outside division here. To be affected by what happens within the household of Faith, you need to be within the household of Faith.

Those not "within," will not be able to perceive any such affect. This is a summary of vast portions of Scripture!

If it is the latter then why would one need anything that impacts the real world? God can live inside the believer.

Preach it bro!

And in other threads, I can be found saying that our species is "the missing link" between the spiritual realm and the physical; IOW, God affects this world via mankind. (And this is the point of all the miracles of the OT)

True Spirituality is not about the overtly miraculous, but manifesting the characteristics of God Himself. And truly, ANYONE can do that! A conscious decision to do so is helpful, but I do not find that religion is.

 

[Freodin]

This is one of the better questions lately, showing good communication. I can only know something happening as a result of prayer when God lets me know! There are also times when God will let one individual know such a thing, but no one else. I do have an inkling of why some He does this in some circumstances, but I'm sure that is not even "the tip of the iceberg."

Now as to how an atheist would know if something were the result of prayer: how would you go about knowing such a thing? I find that an odd situation to consider.

Perhaps this is something that you cannot understand: regardless of whether someone knows the effect of prayer, if prayer had some effect, it would show up as a statistic significance.