A Parable about Age

[GA777]

Is it true that Salvation is based on our acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, and not on our behaviour?

Personally, I dont think so for many different reasons. And there are "ranks" in heaven. The more someone proves himself to be worthy on earth, the more his rank is higher in heaven etc. . And the ranks are very numerous I think.

When the vast majority of people hear a voice, they're mental.
When a small minority of people hear a voice at a particular moment, it's divine intervention.
Doesn't that sound an awful lot like using rare coincidences to confirm your opinion, while ignoring all the conflicting evidence?[

Because someone who is mental, hears countless voices which are pointless. But when someone who is normal, hears 1 or a little more, and all come effective. If you do the statistics on the mental and normal "listeners" and not their "number of voices", the results would be visa-versa of what you stated.

And it is impossible for that many things to happen by coincidence.

 

[Nostromo]

Personally, I dont think so for many different reasons. And there are "ranks" in heaven. The more someone proves himself to be worthy on earth, the more his rank is higher in heaven etc. . And the ranks are very numerous I think.

So the millions of people suffering in third world countries are there so you can rack up a high score and get a good seat in heaven?

Because someone who is mental, hears countless voices which are pointless. But when someone who is normal, hears 1 or a little more, and all come effective. If you do the statistics on the mental and normal "listeners" and not their "number of voices", the results would be visa-versa of what you stated.

You're ignoring an important point.

You're deciding who is normal based on whether or not you think they had a genuine Christian experience. There's no way for you to demonstrate that's true, and what result can you possibly expect besides "voices from God help people", if you're going to reject all the cases where someone thinks God told them to kill their children?

Go back to that thread and read post #3 and then #11. Even people who believe they hear voices from God can't agree on what is and isn't a genuine occurrence.

And it is impossible for that many things to happen by coincidence.

And there's no way for you to know that, is there?

 

[GA777]

So the millions of people suffering in third world countries are there so you can rack up a high score and get a good seat in heaven?

Nope, that's one of the sub-reasons. I gave you 7 reasons already but you chose to ignore them

You're ignoring an important point.

You're deciding who is normal based on whether or not you think they had a genuine Christian experience. There's no way for you to demonstrate that's true, and what result can you possibly expect besides "voices from God help people", if you're going to reject all the cases where someone thinks God told them to kill their children?

Because as I said, many people hallucinate, just like some heard the FSM etc.., some even hear an object talking, which will assure that people hallucinate. But when something pretty much like a miracle happens, it would be clear that it's divine,especially if the saving voice different people hear have common aspects (tone-repeating..)

Go back to that thread and read post #3 and then #11. Even people who believe they hear voices from God can't agree on what is and isn't a genuine occurrence.

#3 confirmed it was God. And there are many more who testimonied than these 2 and proved so in the thread, and #11 was telling #3 not to be so sure, but you know the spirit by its "fruit", it could be an angel maybe, but that doesnt change the fact that supernatural world exists.

And there's no way for you to know that, is there?

There is maybe there 1 or 2 who were unsure, rest said that it was God, so it is a known thing.
Predicting the future by a saving voice cant be a coincindence, how about 10s if not 20s+ in 1 thread on 1 forum?
It's not like the "voices" are the only sign, but there are miracles and ndes and magic and many angels/demons witnesses that cant be denied, and all share common aspects.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Personally, I dont think so for many different reasons. And there are "ranks" in heaven. The more someone proves himself to be worthy on earth, the more his rank is higher in heaven etc. . And the ranks are very numerous I think.

Could you please provide chapter and verse for this? I'm curious because part of it sounds like "justification by works" vs "Justification by faith" (one of the key factors of the Protestant reformation) and the other part sounds completely unfamiliar to me.

I'd be interested in what part of the Bible these are discussed in. Thanks.

 

[AV1611VET]

Could you please provide chapter and verse for this?

I think it comes from the Parable of the Talents.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

I think it comes from the Parable of the Talents.

So, does the parable of the Talents imply we should be good becuase we get a closer seat in heaven, or we should be good because it's the right thing to do?

 

[AV1611VET]

So, does the parable of the Talents imply we should be good becuase we get a closer seat in heaven, or we should be good because it's the right thing to do?

Does it really matter, if one is an atheist?

Either/or would be a step up for them, eh?

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Does it really matter, if one is an atheist?

Either/or would be a step up for them, eh?

Sure it matters, your holy book implies you should be good for reasons other than the right ones. This is immoral. An atheist is good because it's the right thing to do, not because they're trying to impress the god/s, and in so doing hopefully get a better seat. My motivation for being moral is because it's right, not due to threat of punishment/reward. As far as stepping goes, following an archaic book is a step in the wrong direction.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sure it matters, your holy book implies you should be good for reasons other than the right ones.

Ever heard of the Golden Rule?

 

[razeontherock]

Umm, no, I didn't say that. What I said was the "ratio of time spent living to the time spent being punished for failure to make the right decisions while living" is approximately zero.

That's the reason that I am complaining about eternal torment.

Oh I understood that fine. And you have the right to complain, and as far as I can tell, nobody really knows the bottom line on the eternal torment thing. Partly because the fat lady has not yet sung methinks, but I digress.

Even so, you can see that there is some substance and merit in each of our lives upon which to base Judgment. (Except in the case of dead children before a certain age, or even more glaringly, those aborted)

PSSST: She was a flying nun on a TV show. To my knowledge she was never beatified and then sanctified by the Catholic Church. Now, granted, I could be a bit behind on the current list of Catholic Saints but I don't think she's made the cut just yet.

Curious that you would ascribe meaning to that particular ritual of RC "beatification?"

 

[Nostromo]

Nope, that's one of the sub-reasons. I gave you 7 reasons already but you chose to ignore them

I'm not ignoring them, I was asking you to clarify something for me first.

-1- God put hungry/poor people here for us, so we can help them and show if we are good and how good we are.

Makes you sound like a sociopath. Some people are created purely for the purpose of suffering their entire lives so that you can put them on your resume in the afterlife.

-2- God chooses the place and the time people (spirit form) are born at. And when God gives you a little, you can get saved when you return with doing little which can very easily ease up the salvation.

You get saved by accepting Jesus.

-3- Through hunger,people can stop caring about the actual life,and put their eyes on the eternal one so they can do the will of God etc.
-4- These people can have more time for God, which will of course help them in the afterlife in different ways.

I'd love to see you tell a woman so malnourished she can barely stand that she can stop caring about her dying children and get on with doing God's work.

-5- That help those people to get their salvation.If they may be rich,many of them may forget about God,or when they are able to live their own lives

There's a bit of a difference between not being rich, and absolute poverty.

-6- Faith and Belief is decreasing very fast. Prayer is decreasing, and people arent leaving their burdens to God, and through the technology and such, people think they are 'the gods'. So in other words, the creation turned its back to the creator, so as a just and patient God, instead of taking revenge, he keeps waiting until people "feel" the pain in the world and return to him and ask him for help. But unfortunately, people nowadays only care for themselves.

Again, the suffering of other people is there to help you into God's favour? I'm starting to think you are a sociopath.

How exactly is it just to let all those hundreds of millions of people suffer so that the wealthy, who have forgotten God, can ask God for help with a problem that He created?

-7-After the poor condition of People, many may seek food and work for it because they want to save their life and not die of hunger.They'd know the feeling of hunger and pain by then and try to save as many people as they can from hunger when they get to their wealth.

Tens of millions of people will die of starvation this year, most of them children. They won't get a chance to save anyone.

Because as I said, many people hallucinate, just like some heard the FSM etc.., some even hear an object talking, which will assure that people hallucinate.

Like a burning bush, or a donkey perhaps?

But when something pretty much like a miracle happens, it would be clear that it's divine,especially if the saving voice different people hear have common aspects (tone-repeating..)

Which is impossible to know.

#3 confirmed it was God. And there are many more who testimonied than these 2 and proved so in the thread, and #11 was telling #3 not to be so sure, but you know the spirit by its "fruit", it could be an angel maybe, but that doesnt change the fact that supernatural world exists.

You can find 50 people who think they're the reincarnation of Cleopatra, or Napoleon, but that doesn't make it true.

Predicting the future by a saving voice cant be a coincindence, how about 10s if not 20s+ in 1 thread on 1 forum?

This is by far the single biggest religious forum on the Internet. A few tens of people out of hundreds of thousands of members, and hundreds of millions of Internet users?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Ever heard of the Golden Rule?

Oh, you mean that ethical principle that pre-dates your religion?

 

[razeontherock]

FALSE? So the whole soteriological basis of Christianity that mankind need only accept that Jesus is their savior and that "3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." further enhanced by the later analysis that God the father, son and holy spirit are one is false?

I am seriously confused about your stance here, Raze. Please correct me as to where I have gone wrong! Are you arguing against the "trinity"? Or is there something else I misread here.

Please show me chapter and verse how my analysis is false. Thanks!

(BTW: I'm ok if you want to go down certain heretical path such as that of Arius, but you'll have to explain the First Council of Nicea in light of this. Does your congregation not repeat the Nicean Creed? Very interesting.)

I am truly intrigued now!

Here's what I quoted and decried as being false:

"sacrificed himself to himself and raised himself from the dead to go back up to heaven with himself"

Yes, there's either disinformation or misinformation in there ...

Let's start with: who was Jesus sacrificed "to?"

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Ever heard of the Golden Rule?

He who has the gold?

 

[razeontherock]

What you said was denigrative of the "spiritual path" some of us took. You suggest we dialed incorrectly because we knew the number wouldn't work or some such.

Neither was that specific enough to necessarily implicate you, nor anyone else specifically. It is an attitude that is frequently suggested in this parts, by the way many many unbelieving posters intentionally twist and distort essentially anything a Christian says. I do think I have noted a conspicuous absence of that on your part, and I do appreciate it. I would draw a connection between the two, indicating a readiness to accept that your efforts were sincere.

And again, you seem to be going back to your only defense that we athiests simply didn't try hard enough. Good for you. It comforts you.

Actually I have said no such thing. Instead:

You tell me I'm wrong about the fundamentals of soteriology in Christianity without explainging how. (I really honestly am interested in where I was posting a falsehood in the earlier post about standard Christian soteriology), you tell others that they simply don't understand how prayer works, etc etc.

The best you seem to have on offer is not insight of knowledge but a constant stream of rebuke.

Error is sufficient reason for sincere effort to fail to "find God." Pointing such out can be invaluable! And this is the way God has shown me most of what He's shown me; 'apophatic theology,' it's called. Language being primarily good for yes/no conditions, it's a pretty reliable way of going about "piercing the veil" of Spirituality. (Representative images seem to work better with me though

 

[razeontherock]

Could you please provide chapter and verse for this? I'm curious because part of it sounds like "justification by works" vs "Justification by faith" (one of the key factors of the Protestant reformation) and the other part sounds completely unfamiliar to me.

I'd be interested in what part of the Bible these are discussed in. Thanks.

Nothing about Justification, but reward:

white linen Rev 19, white robes Rev 6 & 7, Rev 3 & 4

That's just 3 distinctions, but why any distinctions at all?

 

[AV1611VET]

He who has the gold?

No -- that's covered under the Parable of the Rich Atheist:

Luke 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Nothing about Justification, but reward:

white linen Rev 19, white robes Rev 6 & 7, Rev 3 & 4

That's just 3 distinctions, but why any distinctions at all?

Actually, Raze, if you read closely the question posed had two parts and the first part was justification by works vs justification by faith.

Let me graph it out for you:

Nostromo asked this question and in a rare use of quote tags, GA777 responded to it:

Is it true that Salvation is based on our acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, and not on our behaviour?

to which GA777 responded:

Personally, I dont think so for many different reasons. And there are "ranks" in heaven.

So it would appear to me that GA777 answered that salvation is not merely predicated on acceptance of Jesus as lord and savior, and in addition he went on to delineate the "ranks" in heaven.

So the first part clearly seems to be a statement that "justification by faith" is not the whole story. I wanted to know what part of the Bible contained that and I pointed out that this was a big issue for Martin Luther and the Protestants.

Now, of course, I'm not against anyone being a "justification by works" kind of guy I just wanted to see where GA777 fell on the topic and why.

The ranks stuff, yeah, I can buy that from other aspects, that's fine. But the fundamentals of salvation within Christianity are a bit more important.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Neither was that specific enough to necessarily implicate you,

Spin it as you like. I know the hardest phrase many Christians can ever say is "Sorry I offended you, I was being dismissive".

I've said that many times on this board to people. I've taken a step back and apologized for being overly brusque and rude. But I've almost never seen a Christian do so on this board.

That leads me to think that some Christians live by the aphorisms:

"Christians: not always right but never wrong".

nor anyone else specifically. It is an attitude that is frequently suggested in this parts, by the way many many unbelieving posters intentionally twist and distort

Yet more spin. Do you want to see what you wrote? It was pretty simple:

Or begrudgingly dialing 5 or 6 numbers, knowing that dialing a working # won't work anyway.

That's pretty clear, Raze. If you meant something else, then you are at fault for failing to clearly write it.

I'm sorry but the more you talk, the more I hear "spin,spin,spin".

Maybe you should closely watch what you say. Or if you say what you mean then be willing to live by those words.

 

[Perhaps Today]

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