A Parable about Age

[Nostromo]

You seem to be missing the main points in this thread. Somebody posted the picture of a remote section of the Universe, said to be so far away that the light from it wasn't long after the big bang. What do we see? Mature galaxies, and nothing really any different than what we have today.

Now when I first saw that picture I didn't automatically conclude our science is correct and God created things with "embedded age," but if you are to believe the current state of cosmology that makes more sense than anything else.

Then you have the whole Adam and Eve created mature thing ...

What's meant by "wasn't long after the big bang" is about half a billion years.

Don't get his "embedded age" thing confused with the creation of things with the appearance of age, because that's not what he's getting at.

 

[Nostromo]

This is one of the better questions lately, showing good communication. I can only know something happening as a result of prayer when God lets me know! There are also times when God will let one individual know such a thing, but no one else. I do have an inkling of why some He does this in some circumstances, but I'm sure that is not even "the tip of the iceberg."

I suppose the most obvious question is, if it's only something that happens in your head and nobody else's, how do you know it represents something real and isn't just a product of your imagination?

If something happened that doesn't make any difference to reality, and the only person that knew about it was me from some kind of message in my head, the most sensible conclusion to me is that I made it up.

Now as to how an atheist would know if something were the result of prayer: how would you go about knowing such a thing? I find that an odd situation to consider.

I don't see why He couldn't tell me just because at the moment I don't believe he exists.

 

[AV1611VET]

Perhaps this is something that you cannot understand: regardless of whether someone knows the effect of prayer, if prayer had some effect, it would show up as a statistic significance.

It would?

You don't think Jacob, who went through that 7-year drought, didn't pray?

You don't think Elijah's contemporaries prayed during that 3½-year span didn't pray for rain?

 

[razeontherock]

Perhaps this is something that you cannot understand: regardless of whether someone knows the effect of prayer, if prayer had some effect, it would show up as a statistic significance.

ONLY if the design by which the data were collected reflected the principles of prayer. Which the study posted (by you, IIRC) does NOT. Neither is it possible for science to do so, which point has been laboriously proven:

How does one go about excluding prayers of the unrighteous?

How does one go about excluding prayers against the will of the Father?

How does one go about excluding prayers that lack sufficient fervor?

How does one go about excluding prayers that are "ineffectual?"

And even if you could design controls to ensure such conditions in the effort of creating a valid study, (which you cannot) again this only takes into account TWO Scriptures on the topic!! How many passages do you suppose there are?!?

 

[razeontherock]

What's meant by "wasn't long after the big bang" is about half a billion years.

Even if I take your word for it, I do know enough about cosmology to be reasonably certain the picture in question does not reflect what we would expect to see in such a short time. Why does that pivotal issue get swept under the rug? I'm sure this is why the pic was inserted in the thread. (Right, Doveaman?)

Don't get his "embedded age" thing confusion with the creation of things with the appearance of age, because that's not what he's getting at.

Disagreed strongly! But again, I'll let AV speak for himself.

 

[Freodin]

ONLY if the design by which the data were collected reflected the principles of prayer. Which the study posted (by you, IIRC) does NOT. Neither is it possible for science to do so, which point has been laboriously proven:

How does one go about excluding prayers of the unrighteous?

How does one go about excluding prayers against the will of the Father?

How does one go about excluding prayers that lack sufficient fervor?

How does one go about excluding prayers that are "ineffectual?"

And even if you could design controls to ensure such conditions in the effort of creating a valid study, (which you cannot) again this only takes into account TWO Scriptures on the topic!! How many passages do you suppose there are?!?

All this is completely irrelevant. You don't have to exclude all these cases, because we can assume that they are as effective as non-answered prayers: not at all.

It is the effective cases of prayer - the ones with fervor, according to the will of the Father.... all that - that would show up against the control-group of the not-prayed-at-all.

 

[razeontherock]

I suppose the most obvious question is, if it's only something that happens in your head

Look at your assumption, and kindly stop assuming. You do know what happens when you assume?

I don't see why He couldn't tell me just because at the moment I don't believe he exists.

Note the emphasized phrase. Among the other things you don't see are:

the Kingdom of God
the nature of Faith
how God speaks to mankind
what it means to have a relationship with God
the nature of prayer.

This doesn't put you in a strong position to debate those particular topics

Although I will readily admit that any first-hand experiential knowledge on these (or related) topics I may have has been hard-won, at great personal cost and sacrifice, and yes this does mean I expect there are many many other issues you know far more about than I do.

 

[razeontherock]

All this is completely irrelevant. You don't have to exclude all these cases, because we can assume that they are as effective as non-answered prayers: not at all.

It is the effective cases of prayer - the ones with fervor, according to the will of the Father.... all that - that would show up against the control-group of the not-prayed-at-all.

And this is total violation of the scientific principle of control, which is why I initially rejected the findings of the study.

Those praying not in accord with the principles of prayer would have to be in a CONTROL GROUP, separated from those praying in accord with the principles of prayer. Otherwise, any results and conclusions you get are 100% GARBAGE.

Anyway, why does the Truth make you fret?

 

[Freodin]

It would?

Yes, it would.

You don't think Jacob, who went through that 7-year drought, didn't pray?

You don't think Elijah's contemporaries prayed during that 3½-year span didn't pray for rain?

If you assume that prayer has any noticable effect, any at all, anything that resembled "I prayed for it - it happened!", you will necessarily get more positive hits than "I didn't pray for anything."

 

[Freodin]

And this is total violation of the scientific principle of control, which is why I initially rejected the findings of the study.

Those praying not in accord with the principles of prayer would have to be in a CONTROL GROUP, separated from those praying in accord with the principles of prayer. Otherwise, any results and conclusions you get are 100% GARBAGE.

You have a perfect control group: those who DO NOT PRAY!

Anyway, why does the Truth make you fret?

I can only advise you to read the documentation to find out that.

 

[razeontherock]

You have a perfect control group: those who DO NOT PRAY!

Praytell, how does one test for circumstances under which people do not pray? They ask for nothing to change, nothing changes, so you have 100% results?

 

[Freodin]

Praytell, how does one test for circumstances under which people do not pray? They ask for nothing to change, nothing changes, so you have 100% results?

Are you familiar with prayer studies at all?

Usually, they try to find out if prayer works better to achive a certain result than "secular" methods.

 

[razeontherock]

This does NOT count as any form of control! For reasons I have repeated over and over and over ...

 

[Freodin]

This does NOT count as any form of control! For reasons I have repeated over and over and over ...

You mean, YOU won't accept it as any form of control. That is your prerogative.

 

[razeontherock]

And I've repeatedly pointed out why it is ridiculous to accept such as satisfying the scientific rigor of "control." The concepts simply do not align.

Your use of info derived from this method to bolster your opinion that there is no God that hears and answers prayer is baseless. All it demonstrates is a lack of understanding the nature of prayer.

 

[Nostromo]

Even if I take your word for it, I do know enough about cosmology to be reasonably certain the picture in question does not reflect what we would expect to see in such a short time. Why does that pivotal issue get swept under the rug? I'm sure this is why the pic was inserted in the thread. (Right, Doveaman?)

If you have some information about how long it takes to form a galaxy, why don't you just tell us?

"clouds must avoid catastrophic cooling and gravitational collapse and survive for a period of at least 10^8 yr, the minimum dynamical time-scale for forming a galaxy." - The Formation of Galaxies

i.e. 100 millions years is the minimum time, so 500 million years seems more than sufficient.

 

[Nostromo]

Look at your assumption, and kindly stop assuming. You do know what happens when you assume?

Why not just tell me how it works? I'm guessing he doesn't send you an email.

Note the emphasized phrase. Among the other things you don't see are:

This just seems like you're being evasive. Can you give me a good reason why God can't tell me things just because I happen to be an atheist?

 

[razeontherock]

Why not just tell me how it works? I'm guessing he doesn't send you an email.

He already much better than that for you, long before the internetz came along. You have decided to ignore that.

This just seems like you're being evasive. Can you give me a good reason why God can't tell me things just because I happen to be an atheist?

Well, the first good reason would be ... you are an atheist. That really wasn't so hard, was it? The common sense in the following is so simple as to almost be a tautology in this context:

"whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." (Hebrews 11:6, ESV)

 

[Mling]

He already much better than that for you, long before the internetz came along. You have decided to ignore that.



Well, the first good reason would be ... you are an atheist. That really wasn't so hard, was it? The common sense in the following is so simple as to almost be a tautology in this context:

"whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." (Hebrews 11:6, ESV)

Personally, I think, if I found out that somebody didn't believe in me, that wouldn't make it difficult for me to believe in them. I could still, say, speak to them. I could still walk up to them and see them and talk to them.

Why would a human have so much power over a god, that the human's disbelief would render the god impotent and mute?

 

[razeontherock]

Personally, I think, if I found out that somebody didn't believe in me, that wouldn't make it difficult for me to believe in them. I could still, say, speak to them. I could still walk up to them and see them and talk to them.

Why would a human have so much power over a god, that the human's disbelief would render the god impotent and mute?

I think this is a question that deserves much more attention than it receives! I can't be sure that you personally are asking it in rhetorical fashion, but usually when I see this type of thinking, it is expressed that way.

There are of course drastically different ways of approaching your question, which is what makes a forum like this so interesting. Unfortunately, in this sub-forum we normally see 1 Christian POV per about 4 atheists, and in the C only sections we get no atheist POV to balance things out. So I reserve the right to present at least a couple different mindsets

1) God GAVE mankind dominion. I'm not sure how to place enough weight on this one point, or if you (or any other poster) really understands the significance of this, but there ya go. With dominion, an atheist declares God does not exist, and He respects that choice; the Holy Ghost is a gentleman.

2) God doesn't believe in atheists. I'm pretty sure this phrase was coined as comic relief for a tense subject, but there is a lot of revelation to develop this angle.

3) Knowledge = power. Power must be kept from the hands of those that would misuse it. This isn't E & M, but this angle quickly gets touchy.

4) God works by Faith. There were region Jesus on earth "could not" ... perform many miracles.

5) Who is to say God does not speak to atheists sufficiently?

" The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world." (Psalm 19)


"Lady Wisdom goes out in the street and shouts.
At the town center she makes her speech.
In the middle of the traffic she takes her stand.
At the busiest corner she calls out:

Simpletons! How long will you wallow in ignorance?
Cynics! How long will you feed your cynicism?
Idiots! How long will you refuse to learn?
About face! I can revise your life.
Look, I'm ready to pour out my spirit on you;
I'm ready to tell you all I know.
As it is, I've called, but you've turned a deaf ear;
I've reached out to you, but you've ignored me.

25-28 "Since you laugh at my counsel
and make a joke of my advice,
How can I take you seriously?
I'll turn the tables and joke about your troubles!
What if the roof falls in,
and your whole life goes to pieces?
What if catastrophe strikes and there's nothing
to show for your life but rubble and ashes?
You'll need me then. You'll call for me, but don't expect
an answer.
No matter how hard you look, you won't find me.

29-33 "Because you hated Knowledge
and had nothing to do with the Fear-of-God,
Because you wouldn't take my advice
and brushed aside all my offers to train you,
Well, you've made your bed—now lie in it;
you wanted your own way—now, how do you like it?
Don't you see what happens, you simpletons, you idiots?
Carelessness kills; complacency is murder." (Proverbs 1, from The Message)