which brings us right back to His sheep, His fold, and those who follow His voice.
Only those who recieve Christ as savior will be saved...that's the bottom line, end of story, the truth.
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which brings us right back to His sheep, His fold, and those who follow His voice.
Only those who recieve Christ as savior will be saved...that's the bottom line, end of story, the truth.
which brings us right back to His sheep, His fold, and those who follow His voice.
from what I understand, a Gentile is every other nationand.....??your point?
do you think it is isolated to just those whom you have declared to be "gentiles".. a jewish term which is relative to whether you are a jew or not? I do not think so..
Neither.Well, guys, thanks for all your interest in this thread.
However, I can't help noticing that for all the Bible quotations, (and let's face it, you can read many different things into any given quote) no one has addressed the points I made a couple of pages back.
Briefly - to save you looking back - these are 1. Virtue and vice seem independent of belief, so the idea that God would reward Christians with Heaven and punish unbelievers with Hell involves believing in an unjust God; and 2. Belief is largely independent of volition, and more related to surrounding culture, so that the idea that God would reward Christians with Heaven and punish unbelievers with Hell is to reward and punish something beyond our control, and therefore also involves believing in an unjust God.
So, do you want the Bible, and an unjust God, or do you want my heresy, and a just God?
I think it has to do with the thinking... we are suppose to be in the spiritual understanding there is no jew or greek, no jew or gentile.. because we are all one in Christ.from what I understand, a Gentile is every other nation
under the sun other than a Jew.
So, a Gentile is everyone else in the world and the Jews are
already the branch, so I'm not grasping why you think
'other sheep' being Gentiles is limiting?
Oh I see what you're saying now . .I think it has to do with the thinking... we are suppose to be in the spiritual understanding there is no jew or greek, no jew or gentile.. because we are all one in Christ.
no prob... looks like we are on the same page..Oh I see what you're saying now . .
Well, we still know there ARE different races, different sexes,
different colors, etc.
But the Bible does use the definitions of these 2 groups, not that
anyone is above another - it's just the audience being spoken to
at the time in how to view one another imo.
Jew isn't to look down on Gentile becuz they are God's "chosen",
Gentile isn't to look down on Jew when God turned to them
for rescue becuz we are grafted into them etc.
That's very oversimplified and not clarified enough, but we can still
view each equally while acknowledging the 2 groups exist in
reality
The Christian label was given to us in scripture so I'll happily wear the label.
Acts 11:26
"And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch."
1 Peter 4:16
Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.
1 Peter 4:15-17
Neither.
It's not about God punishing or rewarding for belief or disbelief. It's about God putting us & creation to rights and including in that all who agree to be included.
It's not for me to try to judge who accepts God's offer and who rejects it. One thing Jesus was pretty clear about was that we will all be surprised about that one.Indeed, ebia. Provided we can agree that those 'who agree to be included' are not necessarily those who label themselves Christians, but anybody who prefers virtue to vice in themselves and in others and in God, I think we have settled somewhere pretty close on my heresy.
Best wishes, 2ndRateMind
It's not for me to try to judge who accepts God's offer and who rejects it. One thing Jesus was pretty clear about was that we will all be surprised about that one.
Well, in this case, you're picking hypothetical people who you don'tOn the contrary, it is for all of us to ponder this question, for many reasons. For a start, an answer to this issue is the answer to why we are all here at all, and in the deepest and most profound sense it is truly the answer 'to life, the universe, and everything'. And secondly, charlatans and false preachers are more easily able to take advantage of those who have not the matter serious thought, with their simplistic and biased packages of scripture, as if gaining Heaven were some deal as shoddy as a budget holiday to the costa del sol.
This is, allegedly, a philosophy and ethics forum: we are allowed to debate such topics, here.
Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.
A label is just that, a label. People who arent actually christians label themselves as one. Names are meaningless. Its your faith that truly matters
Well, if you don't "label" yourself a Christian, it's hard to witnessA label is just that, a label. People who arent actually christians label themselves as one. Names are meaningless. Its your faith that truly matters
I'm not saying we shouldn't think about such things - just that it's not my job to make a judgement on someone's situation.On the contrary, it is for all of us to ponder this question, for many reasons. For a start, an answer to this issue is the answer to why we are all here at all, and in the deepest and most profound sense it is truly the answer 'to life, the universe, and everything'. And secondly, charlatans and false preachers are more easily able to take advantage of those who have not the matter serious thought, with their simplistic and biased packages of scripture, as if gaining Heaven were some deal as shoddy as a budget holiday to the costa del sol.
....? well last I checked my bible,
"following" Christ didn't include preaching another
gospel
Unless said murdere was saved and forgiven. You see murder is no worse a sin than lying, stealing, or idolatry. God does not grade on a scale sin=sin.Yes, this is what I was getting at. thank for putting it much more clearly.
using the literal definition of Christian, then yes, they become Christians, but they dont have to follow Christian Doctrine, thats what I was referring to about labels that we use.
Yes, we will know them by their fruits, for example, a murderer would not be considered a good person and definitely not in line with God's will.
My Jesus did not embrace his cross so that he would be one of many ways to the Father. He came because His was the only way, there is no other. For the road that leads to destruction is wide and many will follow it, but the road to life is narrow and fewer still will find it. My Jesus, the Jesus of the Gospel chose me, and He chose those who seek Him to receive this gift of life, he carried our cross so that we may stand before the Father, and that we may be offered without blemish to be married to Him that has redeemed us, we are His righteousness, and the blood that was poured out will cover our sins.
If there was any other way, do you not think that God would not have sent His son, the one whom all creation was done through to die that most treacherous way? Surely my King will hear my call, that even though I am yet a sinner, I will receive this gift of life He offers through His own blood.
Indeed, Nadiine, you have touched on the very heart of the matter. We all want the truth, but the question is, can we, should we, put our faith in a Bible that preaches an unjust God?
Best wishes, 2ndRateMind
How is God unjust? He is the devine creator and you are assuming he's unjust because He chooses who enters His Kingdom though not one person not one sinful, evil, dirty person deserves to be there. The only reason anybody gets to go to heaven is because of their faith in Jesus who is God in the flesh. Not just some guy. Jesus=God=King of Kings.
Why does an atheist deserve Heaven when even as Christians WE don't deserve Heaven? He's not unjust. It'd be fair to say He could very well have wiped the human race clean off the planet because of our ancestors Adam and Eve who stole from him then tried to place blame on each other, lie about it and blame Him. He could have wiped us out but instead He humbled himself. left His throne and entrusted Himself to a 13 year old girl and then to a group of men 1 which betrayed him. Then He died a most embarrassing death on a cross next to two criminals all for US and you have the nerve the very nerve to assume Buddah and the likes deserve Heaven because by your faulty human standards he was righteous or good? You don' g et it do you?
Works are good for nothing. Charity is good for nothing. All of it is pointless if you don't have salvation which only comes from Jesus who IS God. Jesus isn't the spotlight guy who fills in for God. He is God.
He did not HAVE to do it, he did it because He wanted to and He loves us.
Brother, God owes us nothing, nada zilch. He paid our debt not the other way around. If you know a charitable atheist you'd like to see in Heaven then you need to preach the gospel and lead him to Christ. Otherwise he can give his left arm to the armless, his money to the poor and all of his canned goods to a local church and hes still filthy in the eyes of the Lord.
What do atheists want with a Heaven they don't believe in anyhow?
Consider this:
Every human being sins. Only Jesus was sinless and perfect.
No one deserves God's glory.
No one even deserves a single thing from God.
If all it took was "behaving yourself" and "doing good things" Do you think Jesus would have even had a purpose to come to Earth to begin with? He would not have come here and died on a cross at all had good works been enough.
Coming to such conclusions like:
"Anyone can go to Heaven if they are good"
is like saying Jesus' life, teachings and ultimately his sacrificial death served no purpose.