A Heresy for your Consideration...

[elephunky]

its not really the same though, Jesus was sent by GOD to show us teh way, to guide us back to him. I accept he is my savior, for it is he who died on the cross, but we should be praising God and worshipping God for sending him.

I know people say he is the same thing, but hes not really, he spoke about God as his father, not himself.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

If Christ said "He is the way, the truth and the life" and non-believers never come to Him and repent of their sins, then I have a hard time making a case that they are going to go to heaven simply because they acted very well. For works doesn't save the Christian (though I fully believe that faith and works go hand and hand) and so therefore I know that works doesn't save the non-believer. I think the bible is clear on the subject that Christ judges and the scriptures has been given to us as a way for salvation, Christ has already done the work by fulfilling the Old law and become the perfect Lamb to be sacrificed.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

I think that you dont have to label yourself as a christian, you just have to believe.

The Christian label was given to us in scripture so I'll happily wear the label.

Acts 11:26
"And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch."

1 Peter 4:16
Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.
1 Peter 4:15-17

 

[Nadiine]

It is my belief that some Christians get to Heaven, and some don't. It is further my belief that some non-believers get to Heaven, and some don't.

Clearly, then, from this point of view, being a Christian is not the defining factor as regards the deployment of God's judgement. Our beliefs may not be totally irrelevant, but they are not decisive.

In my opinion, it is our 'way of being' that decides. Christian or pagan, if we are motivated by the love of Jesus, (not for us, but within us; for God, and for each other) whether we acknowledge Jesus as divine or not, we accept him as 'the way, the truth and the life'.

If this is true, then Christian evangelism as presently conceived is a misguided conceit, and the right-leaning fundamentalist tendency of the Christian faith is quite as much in error as orthodox Jews, or militant Islam.

Any comments?

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

yes, . .. it's clearly all your OPINION - and that's the problem.

Your opinions directly contradict scripture and I reject
random human opinion that counter's God's teachings.

I believe ALL Christians (who've recieved Jesus as personal saviour
& repent/turn from sin) enter heaven who adhere
to God's commands and principles taught in scripture,
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I believe MANY who claim Christianity yet replace their
own private interpretations & philosophies with God's word
are the ones who won't be entering heaven;
becuz they're basing "salvation" on their own terms & definitions
rather than following God's terms.
Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


How many of us expect to board a flight when we don't do
what the airline requires us to do (buy a ticket and follow
their rules to be allowed on the plane) and instead, just
do what we think it should be.

"I thought your prices were too high, so I'm only paying $100
for a round trip ticket".
Do we expect the airline will give us the ticket when we refuse to pay their fee?
Do we expect to get on board carrying a weapon when they
prohibit weapons on board? hardly.

People likewise cannot make up their own brand of Christianity,
ignoring/rejecting the rules & standards God has laid out for us and expect to enter His righteous dominion.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Well, it seems that I must justify this idea that some non-believers get to enter Heaven, mainly for the benefit of HuntingMan and Nadiine.

The thing that strikes me, as I look around the world, that virtue is not the sole preserve of Christians. And vice is not the sole preserve of unbelievers. (And this is a fact that miltates against ebia's notion of transformation, by the way). So the thing is, would a just God ignore the vice of Christians, and the virtue of ubelievers, as He arrives at His determination for our various destinations in the hereafter? I cannot believe that He would, and I do not wish to be a part of a religion that preaches that He would. Justice is Justice.

To compound the issue, our beliefs are not voluntary. We can only believe what we think to be true, and the culture we are born into seems to be the determing factor, and not our conscious volition. The billion or so Moslems who pass their religion onto their offspring transmit more than just dry philosophy, but a vibrant, encompassing tradition and way of life. For them, to abandon their beliefs means abandoning much of their identity, and, not surprisingly, most of them choose to be who they are, rather than leap into the (comparitively) unknown that, to them, constitutes Christianity. Would a just God punish them for being born to a Moslem father and mother, in a Moslem community, in a Moslem state? I cannot believe that He would, and I do not wish to be a part of a religion that preaches that He would. Justice is Justice.

So, Nadiine, there you have it. You and I believe different things. My opinion may be opinion, but it is backed by at least the rudiments of reasoning. Furthermore, I am far from isolated in my 'opinion'. For example, it is the position of the Catholic Church that Heaven is not denied to some unbelievers. Do you really think the likes of the Buddha, or, more recently, Mahatma Gandhi, inhabit Hell? The distinction that Catholics like to make (and one I question) is that unbelievers may be saved in a religion, but are not saved by that religion.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

 

[CryoftheNation]

Well, it seems that I must justify this idea that some non-believers get to enter Heaven, mainly for the benefit of HuntingMan and Nadiine.

The thing that strikes me, as I look around the world, that virtue is not the sole preserve of Christians. And vice is not the sole preserve of unbelievers. (And this is a fact that miltates against ebia's notion of transformation, by the way). So the thing is, would a just God ignore the vice of Christians, and the virtue of ubelievers, as He arrives at His determination for our various destinations in the hereafter? I cannot believe that He would, and I do not wish to be a part of a religion that preaches that He would. Justice is Justice.

To compound the issue, our beliefs are not voluntary. We can only believe what we think to be true, and the culture we are born into seems to be the determing factor, and not our conscious volition. The billion or so Moslems who pass their religion onto their offspring transmit more than just dry philosophy, but a vibrant, encompassing tradition and way of life. For them, to abandon their beliefs means abondoning much of their identity, and, not surprisingly, most of them choose to be who they are, rather than leap into the (comparitively) unknown that, to them, constitutes Christianity. Would a just God punish them for being born to a Moslem father and mother, in a Moslem community, in a Moslem state? I cannot believe that He would, and I do not wish to be a part of a religion that preaches that He would. Justice is Justice.

So, Nadiine, there you have it. You and I believe different things. My opinion may be opinion, but it is backed by at least the rudiments of reasoning. Furthermore, I am far from isolated in my 'opinion'. For example, it is the position of the Catholic Church that Heaven is not denied to some unbelievers. Do you really think the likes of the Buddha, or, more recently, Mahatma Gandhi, inhabit Hell? The distinction that Catholics like to make (and one I question) is that unbelievers may be saved in a religion, but are not saved by that religion.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

You are correct in one area, my friend. Virtue is not the sole preserve of Christians and vice is not the sole preserve of unbelievers. Unfortunately that does not matter.

The bible is specific on this. The only way to the Father (and to heaven) is through Jesus Christ. No other way will do. There are a number of "Christians" who will be more than a litte surprised to find themselves not in the right place when they die. We cannot earn our way into heaven by being virtuous, by saying or doing the right things. Eternal life is a gift. One that must be accepted by the receiver.

There is no other way to God. If there was the bible would just tell us to tell people to be good and not worry about Jesus or anything like that. It doesn't do that though. That is why it is our responsibility to tell people about the Gospel. How many will go to Hell because we don't?

One of the greatest things God gave us, and possibly our greatest downfall, was free will. He allows us to choose to follow Him or to reject Him. Each and every person has that choice. Each of us bears that responsibility.

To try and say that "virtue" is the sole test for getting into heaven takes out the core of the bible. It makes a mockery of Christs sacrifice. The crucifiction becomes irrelevant. The ressurection - unnecessary. After all we can earn our way to heaven by being good. Christianity becomes another "earn it" religion just like all others, it becomes irrelevant.

I used to think that people were saved based on what they know. That was wrong. They are saved based on thier relationship with Christ. The onus is on us to tell them. God forgive us that we don't.

God bless

Simon

 

[Nadiine]

So, Nadiine, there you have it. You and I believe different things. My opinion may be opinion, but it is backed by at least the rudiments of reasoning.

Human Reasoning when scripture contradicts it is called
"leaning on your own understanding" (error). We're called to trust
God over and above what things appear to be.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man,
but the end thereof are the ways of death.


Proverbs 21:2
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes:
but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

Isaiah 55:8-10
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Furthermore, I am far from isolated in my 'opinion'.

Sure, you can find LOTS of people who claim Christ who claim abortion
and homosexuality and fornication are fine too....
I stick to God's word instead of following human opinion when scripture
plainly says otherwise.

For example, it is the position of the Catholic Church that Heaven is not denied to some unbelievers. Do you really think the likes of the Buddha, or, more recently, Mahatma Gandhi, inhabit Hell? The distinction that Catholics like to make (and one I question) is that unbelievers may be saved in a religion, but are not saved by that religion.

Does the Catholic church know the HEARTS of any of these people?
Do you?
Buddha's claim is that there is no God. My bible says that anyone
denying the Son denies the Father and He will deny that person
in return.
How are you saying one who denies God is entering heaven?

If so, then the gospel is a lie: you DON'T have to be born again.

I call THAT heresy.

 

[Nadiine]

The bible is specific on this. The only way to the Father (and to heaven) is through Jesus Christ. No other way will do. There are a number of "Christians" who will be more than a litte surprised to find themselves not in the right place when they die.
We cannot earn our way into heaven by being virtuous, by saying or doing the right things

(I'd also ask who's defining what "virtue" is as well?
As I see it, lots of "Christians" are claiming blatant sins are good morality -
is their "virtue" getting them into heaven when God calls it
evil?)

Just adding a verse of support to your statement
(not my caps)

Matthew 7:21-23
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

 

[visionary]

It is my belief that some Christians get to Heaven, and some don't. It is further my belief that some non-believers get to Heaven, and some don't.

Clearly, then, from this point of view, being a Christian is not the defining factor as regards the deployment of God's judgement. Our beliefs may not be totally irrelevant, but they are not decisive.

In my opinion, it is our 'way of being' that decides. Christian or pagan, if we are motivated by the love of Jesus, (not for us, but within us; for God, and for each other) whether we acknowledge Jesus as divine or not, we accept him as 'the way, the truth and the life'.

If this is true, then Christian evangelism as presently conceived is a misguided conceit, and the right-leaning fundamentalist tendency of the Christian faith is quite as much in error as orthodox Jews, or militant Islam.

Any comments?

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

I agree.. John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[CryoftheNation]

(I'd also ask who's defining what "virtue" is as well?
As I see it, lots of "Christians" are claiming blatant sins are good morality -
is their "virtue" getting them into heaven when God calls it
evil?)

Very true.

Too many people are rewriting the bible into a more "comfortable" book. They are sure going to get a surprise!

Just adding a verse of support to your statement
(not my caps)

Matthew 7:21-23
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

That's exactly the verse I was refering to. Thanks

God bless

Simon

 

[Nadiine]

I agree.. John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

[and they shall hear my voice/QUOTE]

this is the whole point, the GENTILES (the other sheep)
will hear God's voice and be in agreement with Him.

Hearing God's voice certainly doesn't mean these people are
denying Jesus Christ as Lord, denying God exists, and
worshipping cows are they?

These are things which prove a person has not heard
His voice and are in idolatry

 

[ERice2nd]

I agree.. John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I think we all should keep this in mind. As individuals who dont know the hearts of others, we cant say for sure who God calls to him and who he does not. Our task was to spread the good news of Jesus and his resurrection, death has been defeated by God.

Its not what we label ourselves that saves us, whether that is Christian, Muslim, Jew, or any of the other many labels out there. Its our answer to the call of God and how it changes us in our hearts I think that saves us, basically, God's grace that he shows to us as individuals.

This however doesnt discount what Jesus said about himself being the way the truth and the life, as it was through him that God paid the ultimate price for all sin for all eternity. Jesus is the conduit that God uses to save humanity, and when God calls a man or woman or child to him, it is through Jesus that he does it, thats what I believe, and I believe anyone can get this call, not just those who call themselves Christian.

 

[visionary]

[and they shall hear my voice/QUOTE]

this is the whole point, the GENTILES (the other sheep)
will hear God's voice and be in agreement with Him.

Hearing God's voice certainly doesn't mean these people are
denying Jesus Christ as Lord, denying God exists, and
worshipping cows are they?

These are things which prove a person has not heard
His voice and are in idolatry

Three important aspects to that verse to qualify..

They are not of this fold.

They hear His voice.

They follow Him.

 

[CryoftheNation]

I think we all should keep this in mind. As individuals who dont know the hearts of others, we cant say for sure who God calls to him and who he does not. Our task was to spread the good news of Jesus and his resurrection, death has been defeated by God.

Its not what we label ourselves that saves us, whether that is Christian, Muslim, Jew, or any of the other many labels out there. Its our answer to the call of God and how it changes us in our hearts I think that saves us, basically, God's grace that he shows to us as individuals.

This however doesnt discount what Jesus said about himself being the way the truth and the life, as it was through him that God paid the ultimate price for all sin for all eternity. Jesus is the conduit that God uses to save humanity, and when God calls a man or woman or child to him, it is through Jesus that he does it, thats what I believe, and I believe anyone can get this call, not just those who call themselves Christian.

You're right. We don't know the hearts of others. But we shall know them by their fruit. If the person is not growing in the fruits of the spirit then they are not what they claim. If a person is called by God they will no longer be interested in practicing budhism, islaam or any other religion. They will become "christ like" or a "little Christ" i.e. a Christian.

If they continue to serve other gods then thier fruit is rotten and proof that they are not called of God. Jesus is the ONLY conduit by which we may be saved. You cannot just pick and choose the convenient bits of the bible. You can choose to believe what ever you wish, but unless it stacks up with what the bible teaches then, my friend, you are mistaken.

Our answer to the call of God is "yes Lord I repent and will follow you". No other answer will do.

Interesting fact, there have been tribes in the inner depths of forrests who have never had contact with anyone else, yet when they met with missionaries it was found that they had already met with God through dreams and visions and were already Christians! It's rare but it does happen! Praise God.

 

[Nadiine]

Three important aspects to that verse to qualify..

They are not of this fold.

They hear His voice.

They follow Him.

....? well last I checked my bible,
"following" Christ didn't include preaching another
gospel

 

[Nadiine]

You're right. We don't know the hearts of others. But we shall know them by their fruit. If the person is not growing in the fruits of the spirit then they are not what they claim. If a person is called by God they will no longer be interested in practicing budhism, islaam or any other religion. They will become "christ like" or a "little Christ" i.e. a Christian.

If they continue to serve other gods then thier fruit is rotten and proof that they are not called of God. Jesus is the ONLY conduit by which we may be saved. You cannot just pick and choose the convenient bits of the bible. You can choose to believe what ever you wish, but unless it stacks up with what the bible teaches then, my friend, you are mistaken.

Our answer to the call of God is "yes Lord I repent and will follow you". No other answer will do.

Interesting fact, there have been tribes in the inner depths of forrests who have never had contact with anyone else, yet when they met with missionaries it was found that they had already met with God through dreams and visions and were already Christians! It's rare but it does happen! Praise God.

Isn't that so kool?
Yes, I read that from one of my favorite apologists,
Dr. Norman Geisler. They knew of Jesus specifically when they
hadn't even heard Him preached yet.

This is why I am very firm in my belief that God can, does and will
reveal Himself to people in obscure areas, and it's what they do
with that Light (follow or continue in their own tribal traditions)
that is what they're judged on. (Rom 2:14-15)

They can know God in a very basic sense. Heck, I don't doubt that
they follow alot more closely than alot of self proclaiming Christians
who manipulate the scriptures they have the privaledge of
owning.

 

[ERice2nd]

You're right. We don't know the hearts of others. But we shall know them by their fruit. If the person is not growing in the fruits of the spirit then they are not what they claim. If a person is called by God they will no longer be interested in practicing budhism, islaam or any other religion. They will become "christ like" or a "little Christ" i.e. a Christian.

If they continue to serve other gods then thier fruit is rotten and proof that they are not called of God. Jesus is the ONLY conduit by which we may be saved. You cannot just pick and choose the convenient bits of the bible. You can choose to believe what ever you wish, but unless it stacks up with what the bible teaches then, my friend, you are mistaken.

Our answer to the call of God is "yes Lord I repent and will follow you". No other answer will do.

Interesting fact, there have been tribes in the inner depths of forrests who have never had contact with anyone else, yet when they met with missionaries it was found that they had already met with God through dreams and visions and were already Christians! It's rare but it does happen! Praise God.

Yes, this is what I was getting at. thank for putting it much more clearly.

using the literal definition of Christian, then yes, they become Christians, but they dont have to follow Christian Doctrine, thats what I was referring to about labels that we use.

Yes, we will know them by their fruits, for example, a murderer would not be considered a good person and definitely not in line with God's will.

 

[visionary]

....? well last I checked my bible,
"following" Christ didn't include preaching another
gospel

you yourself as with many others like me, have at one time back at the start of our journey with the Lord, believed and preached something that is and was not in harmony with the Lord, and when the Lord showed us the truth on that matter, we repented and were transformed by that insight... so are they.. they are just further back on the same path.

 

[nhisname]

It is my belief that some Christians get to Heaven, and some don't. It is further my belief that some non-believers get to Heaven, and some don't.

Clearly, then, from this point of view, being a Christian is not the defining factor as regards the deployment of God's judgement. Our beliefs may not be totally irrelevant, but they are not decisive.

In my opinion, it is our 'way of being' that decides. Christian or pagan, if we are motivated by the love of Jesus, (not for us, but within us; for God, and for each other) whether we acknowledge Jesus as divine or not, we accept him as 'the way, the truth and the life'.

If this is true, then Christian evangelism as presently conceived is a misguided conceit, and the right-leaning fundamentalist tendency of the Christian faith is quite as much in error as orthodox Jews, or militant Islam.

Any comments?

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Jesus answered, I am the way , and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matt. 7:13-14

If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God , God lives in in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. In this way love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgement, because in this world we are like him. 1 John 4:15,16,17,

You are correct when you state that some christians will not have eternal life...it's not about belonging to a church. It's about repenting, believing, trusting and having faith in our savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[Nadiine]

you yourself as with many others like me, have at one time back at the start of our journey with the Lord, believed and preached something that is and was not in harmony with the Lord, and when the Lord showed us the truth on that matter, we repented and were transformed by that insight... so are they.. they are just further back on the same path.

neways,
you don't know who 'they" are specifically, and not ALL of them
are on the same path or even near it and won't all end up on it.

The path is narrow and few find eternal life - it's not for us to
say or know who these people will or won't be.
But IF they do follow, they will repent, have a lifestyle change and be in compliance with His word and won't CONTINUE in demonic doctrines and promotion of sin.
(just in general).

The point being, we can't point to known false teachers & say "that's probly a Christian". When they are a Christian, their messages will
be in agreement with God, not contrary.

I hope that makes my points more clear, I'm not sure if they were
being understood as I meant them? not sure.