A Heresy for your Consideration...

[2ndRateMind]

It is my belief that some Christians get to Heaven, and some don't. It is further my belief that some non-believers get to Heaven, and some don't.

Clearly, then, from this point of view, being a Christian is not the defining factor as regards the deployment of God's judgement. Our beliefs may not be totally irrelevant, but they are not decisive.

In my opinion, it is our 'way of being' that decides. Christian or pagan, if we are motivated by the love of Jesus, (not for us, but within us; for God, and for each other) whether we acknowledge Jesus as divine or not, we accept him as 'the way, the truth and the life'.

If this is true, then Christian evangelism as presently conceived is a misguided conceit, and the right-leaning fundamentalist tendency of the Christian faith is quite as much in error as orthodox Jews, or militant Islam.

Any comments?

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

 

[lux et lex]

I agree. Some of the best examples of Christian behavior that I know are atheist or agnostic. Then again I've always felt extremist right wing views are misguided.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Hi lux et lex. Thanks for that vote of support.

I think you are correct; that 'right' behaviour is evidenced by non-believers as well as believers. But, we are warned, salvation is not through works. However, I am equally certain, scripture notwithstanding, that it is not by belief either. Our beliefs are not voluntary, and more to do with accident of birth than conscious decision.

Our 'way of being' though: that does seem to me to be a reasonable contender. A 'way of being' that motivates those 'right' acts we would all like to see encouraged, and is like Christ's way of being; I cannot see a just God forbidding such a soul Heaven. Whatever their system of belief.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind

 

[one11]

It is my belief that some Christians get to Heaven, and some don't. It is further my belief that some non-believers get to Heaven, and some don't.

Clearly, then, from this point of view, being a Christian is not the defining factor as regards the deployment of God's judgement. Our beliefs may not be totally irrelevant, but they are not decisive.

In my opinion, it is our 'way of being' that decides. Christian or pagan, if we are motivated by the love of Jesus, (not for us, but within us; for God, and for each other) whether we acknowledge Jesus as divine or not, we accept him as 'the way, the truth and the life'.

If this is true, then Christian evangelism as presently conceived is a misguided conceit, and the right-leaning fundamentalist tendency of the Christian faith is quite as much in error as orthodox Jews, or militant Islam.

Any comments?

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

Only Jesus knows. I've said that in posts and I believe it in my heart. Not for you to judge this either, my friend.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Only Jesus knows. I've said that in posts and I believe it in my heart. Not for you to judge this either, my friend.

Hey, one11. Thanks for answering this. The problem I have is twofold: one general, and one personal.

The general problem is that some Christians are always telling us what we must do to be saved, and generally the solution offered is to become the philosophical clone of the protagonist. Seeing as they differ in their prescriptions, I don't feel a thread on the topic is out of order.

The personal problem is that my eternal soul is on the line here. We're not talking a mere matter of preference, such as choosing between vanilla ice-cream or profiteroles for afters. We are talking the central question of human existence, the answer to life, the universe, and everything, and I think we are entitled to debate it with all the gravity and levity the topic deserves.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

 

[ebia]

As it stands, your heresy is really only addressing another misconception (heresy if you like): that 'heaven' is a place we go as a reward for something (faith or work).

That's not how the historic Christian message works.

The Kingdom of God is no more or less than all creation put to rights. That requires all evil and malice to be dealt with so that death and suffering are dealt with. Including the evil and malice that is in each one of us. That's done through the death and resurrection of Jesus and through trusting in that death and resurrection to transform us. No transformation; no compatibility with the Kingdom of God.

 

[2ndRateMind]

As it stands, your heresy is really only addressing another misconception (heresy if you like): that 'heaven' is a place we go as a reward for something (faith or work).

That's not how the historic Christian message works.

The Kingdom of God is no more or less than all creation put to rights. That requires all evil and malice to be dealt with so that death and suffering are dealt with. Including the evil and malice that is in each one of us. That's done through the death and resurrection of Jesus and through trusting in that death and resurrection to transform us. No transformation; no compatibility with the Kingdom of God.

Thanks, ebia, for that learned contribution. I have more in common with your view than this following question will evidence. However, in your opinion, then, can no right-living, right-thinking, right-being non-believer get to Heaven? Are they, to your way of expressing the thing, incompatible with the Kingdom of Heaven, being 'untransformed'?

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

 

[ebia]

Thanks, ebia, for that learned contribution. I have more in common with your view than this following question will evidence. However, in your opinion, then, can no right-living, right-thinking, right-being non-believer get to Heaven? Are they, to your way of expressing the thing, incompatible with the Kingdom of Heaven, being 'untransformed'?

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

No-one is completely right-thinking - we are all imperfect and need putting right.

But there are some things I deliberately have not said. I haven't said that one's trust in Jesus must be explicit (I think it helps enormously if it is), and I haven't said that possibility of transformation ends with death because I don't know that. I suspect C.S. Lewis is on the right track on that score in the Great Divorce (the finest piece of extra-biblical literature on the topic).

 

[2ndRateMind]

OK. I haven't read the Great Divorce, although on your recommendation I will order it tonight. However, do I take your position to be the standard notion that we are all imperfect, and therefore, without divine intervention, all damned?

It seems a rather pessimistic view to me, that ignores the capacity of humanity to think, be and do good of their own accord. And of course, in the hands of right-wing evangelists, it becomes positively misanthropic.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

 

[ebia]

OK. I haven't read the Great Divorce, although on your recommendation I will order it tonight.

It's a great book and an enjoyable but thought provoking read.

However, do I take your position to be the standard notion that we are all imperfect, and therefore, without divine intervention, all damned?

I don't think that's a good way of putting it.

It seems a rather pessimistic view to me, that ignores the capacity of humanity to think, be and do good of their own accord.

That's because of the way around you've put it. We (and all creation) aren't rubbish. We are very good, but damaged. We need fixing up before we fall apart and take everything else with us. We are the image of God in creation, but an image worn, scared and defaced that needs restoration so we can get back to being that image of God in and for the rest of creation.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

am not sure what you think is heresy about such thoughts

 

[chingchang]

It is my belief that some Christians get to Heaven, and some don't. It is further my belief that some non-believers get to Heaven, and some don't.

Clearly, then, from this point of view, being a Christian is not the defining factor as regards the deployment of God's judgement. Our beliefs may not be totally irrelevant, but they are not decisive.

In my opinion, it is our 'way of being' that decides. Christian or pagan, if we are motivated by the love of Jesus, (not for us, but within us; for God, and for each other) whether we acknowledge Jesus as divine or not, we accept him as 'the way, the truth and the life'.

If this is true, then Christian evangelism as presently conceived is a misguided conceit, and the right-leaning fundamentalist tendency of the Christian faith is quite as much in error as orthodox Jews, or militant Islam.

Any comments?

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

Cool thread. I've given this a lot of thought lately...and I'm still unsure. Your idea puts much more meaning to Jesus' statement "I am the way...". Transformation is the key IMHO. I believe that the Most High God is interested in having a certain type of being in his eternal kingdom. That type of being can only come about by transformation (growth). I think he uses this age to bring about that trasnformation in people and it is those people that he wants to keep for his kingdom. Think about the parable regarding the wheat and tares/chaff. God wants to harvest the good for himself and discard the bad. I can't imagine he'd discard of an individual who followed in the way of Jesus...but didn't have their trinity theology "right".

We'll find out one day!

Free Hugs,
CC

 

[Adoniram]

I'm having a little trouble reconciling this line of thinking to John 3:18 and Heb. 11:6.

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

I'm fine with the notion that "self-proclaimed" believers might not make it because that is Biblical- Mt. 7:21

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

But my uneasiness rests in regards to unbelievers. We are judged by God's standards, not the standard by which men judge each other. What we consider "righteousness" still does not measure up to God's standard. Is. 64:6

"...all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;..."

Therefore, we must have righteousness "imputed" (credited, attributed, bestowed) to us as a gift through belief in Jesus. Rom. 4:20-25

"He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification."

If you have any Biblical foundation for an unbeliever, a non-faithful person gaining entry into heaven, I would be happy to consider it.

 

[elephunky]

I think that you dont have to label yourself as a christian, you just have to believe.

 

[Thaeoles]

I think that you dont have to label yourself as a christian, you just have to believe.

Believe what?

 

[elephunky]

In God and Jesus

 

[HuntingMan]

If this is true....

*IF*.
It isnt true, Christ is the ONLY way according to Gods word, so any conclusions that reject that biblical truth are in error.

 

[jparks]

Christian or pagan, if we are motivated by the love of Jesus, (not for us, but within us; for God, and for each other) whether we acknowledge Jesus as divine or not, we accept him as 'the way, the truth and the life'.

I'm afraid I don't see how someone could be moviated by the love of Jesus without accepting Him as 'the way, the truth and the life.'

It is through our faith in our Lord, Jesus Christ, that we are saved. I can't see how an atheist or agnostic, in particular, could be motivated by the love of Jesus.

 

[elephunky]

I dont get how its faith in jesus only that saves us. It seems that God is being left in the background

 

[CryoftheNation]

I dont get how its faith in jesus only that saves us. It seems that God is being left in the background

Faith in Jesus is faith in God. They are one and the same. (doctrine of the trinity!)

The only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. That means if you don't repent of your sin, and accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, you are lost. Sorry! There is no other way into heaven. It is not by our works but by a free "grace" offering from God. He sent His son to die for us so that we do not have to face the consequences of our sin. We have a choice. We can turn to Him and accept the offer or we can decide to do things our way.

No one is "good" enough to get into heaven just by their actions.

Luk 18:19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good-except God alone.

We are all dependant on the actions of Christ. His death and ressurection. If we don't accept this grace we perish.

We cannot "earn" place in heaven by good works.

God bless

Simon