A forever hell

[Lazarus Short]

In which two posts did it come up? It's in post #282.

Looking again, it's there, but was not there earlier. No biggie...

 

[ozso]

Your quote "Eternal adjective lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning."
Why did you bold the secondary meaning rather than the primary meaning " Eternal adjective lasting or existing forever?"
Here is the definition from Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Definition of eternal
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: having infinite duration : EVERLASTING eternal damnation
b: of or relating to eternity
c: characterized by abiding fellowship with God
good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?— Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)
2a: continued without intermission : PERPETUAL an eternal flame
b: seemingly endless eternal delays
archaic : INFERNAL some eternal villain … devised this slander— William Shakespeare
4: valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS eternal verities​

Eternal, everlasting, timeless etc means without beginning or end. You had a beginning. Therefore you can't have eternal life. If you had eternal life, there wouldn't be a picture of you when you were about 1 year old.​

 

[ozso]

I started going to Sunday School when FDR was president. I did not become a Christian until LBJ was president and it had nothing to do someone preaching hell. I had been in a few church between FDR and LBJ and can't recall ever hearing a sermon on hell.
In fact since I became a Christian I have only heard one sermon on hell and I preached it in '95. The title was "Lessons from Hell University." I wasn't the pastor my sermon had nothing to do with full pews and offering plates.I didn't even receive a stipend nor did I want one.
Maybe you guys should get a new boogey man line.

Der Alte's Law - If I didn't experience it personally, it doesn't exist.

Also it's ironic how much you put into arguing in favor of eternal torment, while trying to gloss it over as something you've barely heard of.

Walk into most any church and say "there's no such thing as eternal torment" where the clergy and most of the congregation can hear you, and see what happens. Be sure to follow that up with "and you don't have to pay this church a 10% gross income tithe".

 

[ozso]

Do you have a verse that supports that position, because it does not sound very Christian to me. I find it better to “seek truth” and “trust in God” ... but to each his own. If being a “soul-less, Bible-wielding robot” works for you, then who am I to judge the servant of another?

He means there's more to God than printed pages. Many throughout the Bible who fellowshipped with God and received revelation from Him, didn't have a Bible. What Bible did Moses go by, when he wrote the Bible?

Some folks get so carried away with sola scriptura they seem to forget there's a Holy Spirit.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Walk into most any church and say "there's no such thing as eternal torment" where the clergy and most of the congregation can hear you, and see what happens. Be sure to follow that up with "and you don't have to pay this church a 10% gross income tithe".

I gave your comment a 'funny' emoji, but it's not really a laughing matter. I've been bundled out of at least 2 churches for raising the first point there. I was even told by a sister, 'We need to protect the flock'. Oh my, that was when it dawned on me there may have been a concern about the second point (God didn't grace me with the gift of sharpness). It was one of those big rich Pentecostal churches, who'd work overtime to 'block the back door' for any strayers, but practically used my head as a battering ram to eject me. 'And stay offa the broad path, you bum!'

 

[Andrewn]

The English word "hell" is derived from Old Scandinavian "hel." Numerous common, everyday Old Scandinavian words were adopted into the Old English language during the Viking Age.

Hel (being) - Wikipedia

We're being given a promise that we'll be alive in the age/world to come. I don't feel shortchanged by that. What happens after that age? I guess we'll have to wait to find out.

The "age/world to come" is not only in the future but is rather parallel to "this age" and also extending beyond it. It is the realm of God and the angels. The expression is related to the "kingdom of God/heaven," it has no beginning or end (Rom 16:25).

 

[Clare73]

Well, there is this little Hebrew word, "sheol." It refers to the realm of the dead, the unseen, the unknown, the grave, the pit. Half of the time, the KJV rendered it as "grave" or "pit," and I found that it did so when the context tied the instance to the real world. The other half of the time, the KJV rendered "sheol" as "hell," and it did so usually when the context did not connect to the real world. Be cautious, as the translators were not entirely consistent, so you can find instances that contradict the above. I was investigating Hell, so there are probably a lot of terms which were print to fit as well.

Thanks. . . I don't use the KJV, for manuscript reasons.

 

[Clare73]

He means there's more to God than printed pages. Many throughout the Bible who fellowshipped with God and received revelation from Him, didn't have a Bible. What Bible did Moses go by, when he wrote the Bible?

Your question is abundantly answered in the Bible.
Try studying it sometime.

Some folks get so carried away with sola scriptura they seem to forget there's a Holy Spirit.

And you are setting the Holy Spirit against himself in setting him against his Scriptures.

 

[atpollard]

He means there's more to God than printed pages. Many throughout the Bible who fellowshipped with God and received revelation from Him, didn't have a Bible. What Bible did Moses go by, when he wrote the Bible?

Some folks get so carried away with sola scriptura they seem to forget there's a Holy Spirit.

And all the Mormons, Scientologist and Cults said ... “Amen.”

 

[Saint Steven]

And all the Mormons, Scientologist and Cults said ... “Amen.”

What is your specific objection? (quote below)

MMXX said: ↑
He means there's more to God than printed pages. Many throughout the Bible who fellowshipped with God and received revelation from Him, didn't have a Bible. What Bible did Moses go by, when he wrote the Bible?

Some folks get so carried away with sola scriptura they seem to forget there's a Holy Spirit.

 

[Saint Steven]

... What Bible did Moses go by, when he wrote the Bible? ...

Is that a trick question? - lol

Reminds me of: What color was George Washington's white horse?

 

[ozso]

And all the Mormons, Scientologist and Cults said ... “Amen.”

Most Christian cults have lots of scriptures. And also sometimes people get legitimate visions.

 

[ozso]

Is that a trick question? - lol

Reminds me of: What color was George Washington's white horse?

Moses was the wickedest man in the Bible.
He broke all 10 commandments at once.

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alte's Law - If I didn't experience it personally, it doesn't exist.
Also it's ironic how much you put into arguing in favor of eternal torment, while trying to gloss it over as something you've barely heard of.
Walk into most any church and say "there's no such thing as eternal torment" where the clergy and most of the congregation can hear you, and see what happens. Be sure to follow that up with "and you don't have to pay this church a 10% gross income tithe". [Meaningless no basis argumentation DA]

When you are willing to engage in a reasonable, rational discussion let me know. How many churches have you been in preach/teach anything about hell on anything like a regular basis?
Had you bothered to actually read my post you might have understood that I did not say or imply anything highlighted in red

Eternal, everlasting, timeless etc means without beginning or end. You had a beginning. Therefore you can't have eternal life. If you had eternal life, there wouldn't be a picture of you when you were about 1 year old.​

I posted the definition of "eternal" from a real dictionary Merriam-Webster. For you I will do it again. Please read and learn.

Definition of eternal
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a : having infinite duration : everlasting eternal damnation
b : of or relating to eternity
c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?
— Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)
2a : continued without intermission : perpetual an eternal flame
b : seemingly endless eternal delays
3 archaic : infernal some eternal villain … devised this slander— William Shakespeare
4 : valid or existing at all times : timeless eternal verities​

Also please read my post this thread where I quote 26 N.T. verses which define "aionios."
Definition of ETERNAL
The lead paragraph from one of my posts above.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
* * *

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
Please try to show me that I am wrong, that "aionios life" is not the opposite of "perish" as Jesus said, twice.

 

[ozso]

When you are willing to engage in a reasonable, rational discussion let me know. How many churches have you been in preach/teach anything about hell on anything like a regular basis?
Had you bothered to actually read my post you might have understood that I did not say or imply anything highlighted in red

I posted the definition of "eternal" from a real dictionary Merriam-Webster. For you I will do it again. Please read and learn.

Definition of eternal
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a : having infinite duration : everlasting eternal damnation
b : of or relating to eternity
c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?
— Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)
2a : continued without intermission : perpetual an eternal flame
b : seemingly endless eternal delays
3 archaic : infernal some eternal villain … devised this slander— William Shakespeare
4 : valid or existing at all times : timeless eternal verities​

Also please read my post this thread where I quote 26 N.T. verses which define "aionios."
Definition of ETERNAL
The lead paragraph from one of my posts above.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
* * *

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
Please try to show me that I am wrong, that "aionios life" is not the opposite of "perish" as Jesus said, twice,

I did show you, sport. As usual you ignored, repeated, and acted all snooty.

 

[Saint Steven]

Moses was the wickedest man in the Bible.
He broke all 10 commandments at once.

I wonder what it was like to receive the Thou shalt not murder commandment. Seeing as he had murdered an Egyptian. I don't recall God giving him a hard time about that. Makes you wonder.

 

[Der Alte]

I did show you, sport. As usual you ignored, repeated, and acted all snooty.

You have deceived yourself into thinking that making a challenge is showing me something? I quote,

Walk into most any church and say "there's no such thing as eternal torment" where the clergy and most of the congregation can hear you, and see what happens. Be sure to follow that up with "and you don't have to pay this church a 10% gross income tithe".​

Let me know when you have done this in 2-3 churches.

 

[Navair2]

Not familiar with the Critical Text.

It's the basis for Nestle-Aland's work and the United Bible Society's collated Greek texts and apparatuses.
NA is currently at # 28, while UBS is now at # 5.

The "Critical Text" is so-called because it was developed critically ( and differed from the "Received Text" of some 300 years before ), using then-recently discovered Greek manuscripts such as Sinaiticus, by B.F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort in the late 1800's.

It was also the first time since the 1500's that a collated ( read about the process of collation, which is basically an "averaging" of the readings of various existing manuscripts ) Greek text was developed that differed significantly from the one earlier English ( as well as Spanish, French and German ) translators used, such as William Tyndale and many others during the "Protestant Reformation".

In other words, the Bible as you know it reads differently ( sometimes markedly different ) depending upon which Greek Text ( Textus Receptus, Critical Text or Majority Text ) was used as the basis for the translation into English and / or other languages.

Examples of "Textus Receptus" Bibles:

The English Authorized Version, commonly called the "King James".
The Geneva Bible.
The Great Bible.
The Bishop's Bible.
William Tyndale's New Testament.
The New King James Version.
Taverner's Bible.
Reina-Valera ( Spanish ) 1602.
Louis Segond ( French )1874.

Examples of "Critical Text" Bibles:

The English Standard Version.
The Revised Standard Version.
The New Revised Standard Version.
The New International Version.
The New American Standard Version.

 

[Navair2]

He means there's more to God than printed pages.

Amen.

Many throughout the Bible who fellowshipped with God and received revelation from Him, didn't have a Bible.

I agree.
But they did have His immutable words to trust in...spoken and otherwise.

What Bible did Moses go by, when he wrote the Bible?

God's words as spoken to him ( the same as Noah, Enoch and many others had ), which is the same as those written on paper, vellum, plastic or any other material...
Such as 2 tablets of stone.

 

[Navair2]

Moses was the wickedest man in the Bible.
He broke all 10 commandments at once.

It's possible that he may have...

But then, that is what God's grace is all about;
Him forgiving someone of their sins and calling them "friend" ( Exodus 33:11 ).

It's also very possible that Moses had competition from Lot, Samson, Jacob and several others...like me.
I've broken all of them at least several hundred times except for perhaps bowing down to graven ( formed, sculptured ) images.