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A forever hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by KisKatte, May 1, 2021.

  1. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    @KisKatte :
    To reply to your OP, the Bible does indeed teach the eternal torment of all who are cast into the Lake of Fire in several places:

    Revelation 14:9-11. <--- This clearly demonstrates that at least those who follow the "beast" and the false prophet, and took his mark, will suffer eternal torment.
    Mark 9:44-48.
    Isaiah 33:14.
    Luke 16:24-26.

    All who are not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life will spend an eternity in pain, anguish and suffering for their rebellion against the Lord.

    Of course, those who reject His words will often take exception to any or all of these passages, because they do not want to acknowledge them as being true.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  2. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I think you are misinterpreting scripture to make it fit your assumptions/presuppositions.
    …..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
    If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
    Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
    But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.
    Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​
    My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. Feel free to call them anything you want. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.



     
  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Oh, no... Did the joke go right past you?
    (Moses broke the tablets containing the TCs, thus breaking all of them - lol)

    MMXX said:
    Moses was the wickedest man in the Bible.
    He broke all 10 commandments at once.
     
  4. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    You must running out of places to hide the bodies by now. - lol
    Or do you own a wood chipper? (sick)
     
  5. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    First of all, when I studied First Corinthians 15:26, I had no assumptions or presuppositions. That goes for every other verse in my Bible: text first and then the interpretation.

    Second, I was also aware of the other verses you quoted, but literal or figurative, it makes no difference: Death will be defeated. You admit this in the last sentence of your post, so I don't know what you are trying to say besides telling me that I have assumptions and/or presuppositions. As I have said many times on CF, I delved into the KJV to see which afterlife theory best fit the data and if Hell, as a place of eternal, conscious torment, existed. My unbiased conclusion is that Hell is a 404 fail, along with Damnation. Annihilation also, for I found little support for it. What I did find was God's mercy, forgiveness, and a decision to save His creation. Did you find any other?
     
  6. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    I get the impression over and over that Moses had an anger problem.
     
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  7. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    Yes, the joke went right over my head.

    But I never joke when I speak of my Saviour or my sins which are ever before me ( Psalms 51 ).
    I thank Him that He has forgiven me for His mercy's sake.:)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  8. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    My view of death being defeated is that there is no more death, people who are alive no longer die. Not that everyone who is dead suddenly comes back to life.
    For me one verse more than any other [not that it is the only one] convinces me that there is indeed a place of eternal, unending punishment. That verse is Matthew 25:46
    …..Greek is now, and for 2000+ years has been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios,”“kolasis” etc?
    EOB, footnote pg. 180

    “Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”
    = = = = = = = = = =
    The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
    Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion]
     
  9. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Thanks for that!
     
  10. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "There is no fear on love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment." (in 1 John 4:17)

    So, I would say, fear with torment is not what works to have a person change to become a child of God. But how God's love effects us is what works > I consider Romans 2:4.

    I don't think hell is just about punishment. It is for managing Satan and his and "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2) Hell is God's place for keeping the spirit of evil and the beings who have invested in living in this selfish spirit. So, if this spirit will never go out of existence, there always will be hell needed for containing it. And Satan and his spirit are so stubbornly stupid, that only fire can control the beings of evil, and keep it in its place.

    This can be a trick to help you to procrastinate all the good which we can have, right now, with Jesus. The time for real deep character correction is now > Hebrews 12:4-14. God is able, now. His grace is almighty with His effect in His children.

    Yes, various words can have different meanings, even exact opposite meanings. But God knows what is true, doesn't He? And no amount of wishful word gaming can change what He knows is true.

    Jesus talks about fire, and judgment, and punishment. And He does not in plain words say what some number of people are saying. But, right in the Beatitudes, He talks about how now in this life we can become because of the effect of God's love living in us. So, I would not accept less.
     
  11. MMXX

    MMXX I Got Vaccinated

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    That was an old joke, because Moses smashed the tablets after he got back down from Mt. Sinai and saw the golden calf. Yeah, I have an old track record I'm not proud of. Wish I could go back and do it over again.
     
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  12. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    To me, logic dictates that if anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, then Death has not been defeated. Your Bible and mine say it will be. Yes, there will be no one dying, but it goes deeper than that - right down to the bottom of sheol, hades and hell. They must give up their dead to resurrection before Death is defeated. I can see no other way around it, unless some verse or other is ignored.

    As for the preservation of truth by the Eastern Church, why should they have fared better than the Western Church, which began with "infernum," meaning basically, under the grass, but they ended up with "inferno," meaning fire, Hell and eternal suffering?
     
  13. MMXX

    MMXX I Got Vaccinated

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    There were things I knew about that I felt God had communicated to me. When I read the Bible for the first time, I found out those things were scriptural.
     
  14. MMXX

    MMXX I Got Vaccinated

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    That's not the part I was talking about, which you left out. As to the part you kept, that was just an anecdote used elicit a chuckle and to make a point. It wasn't meant to be taken literally or particularly seriously. This is just a discussion forum, not a classroom. Lighten up some, professor :p
    I haven't been at this since FDR, but I have a good 50 years under my belt. You know from conversations like these that that many hold the eternal torment doctrine quite dear. When Mars Hill Bible Church pastor Rob Bell challenged eternal torment by writing a book called Love Wins around 2011, it stirred a huge uproar. Well known pastors publicly furiously condemned him. Also did you read Shrewd Manager's experience? When it comes to tithing I've heard it preached on using Malachi 3:8. And back in the old says I'm pretty sure the Roman empire turned Christian used eternal torment hell as a threat to secure obedience to the church. I've heard of tithing referred to as paying "fire insurance".
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  15. MMXX

    MMXX I Got Vaccinated

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  16. MMXX

    MMXX I Got Vaccinated

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    Eternal torment can just as easily be read as correction in the age to come.
     
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  17. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    I understand and agree with all this.

    We need to consider the subject of the LoF a little bit more carefully. Is it the same thing as Gehenna that Lord mentions in the Gospels?

    It seems that the LoF comes into the picture after resurrection of the body:

    Rev 20:12 I saw the dead, great and small alike, standing in front of his throne while the books lay open. And another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, as their deeds deserved.
    13 The sea gave up all the dead who were in it;
    14 Death and Hades were emptied of the dead that were in them; and every one was judged as his deeds deserved. Then Death and Hades were hurled into the burning lake. This burning lake is the second death;
    15 and anybody whose name could not be found written in the book of life was hurled into the burning lake.

    But Gehenna is immediately after death, as in parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Also, the Jewish belief is that Gehenna is immediately after death, for purification and correction.

    Luke 16:22 Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels into Abraham's embrace. The rich man also died and was buried.
    23 'In his torment in Hades he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off with Lazarus in his embrace.
    24 So he cried out, "Father Abraham, pity me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in agony in these flames."

    So, 2 different situations or do you conflate them?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
  18. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    What if any reasons do you use it for then?

    And what is your preferred translation Clare? I'm guessing the Ol' Douay Rheims, because it mentions 'hell' more than any other - twice as many times as the KJV alone apparently:

    Hell is Leaving the Bible Forever
     
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Here's a handy list for anyone interested.

    Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

    Wesley's New Testament (1755)
    Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
    The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
    Young's Literal Translation (1891)
    Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
    Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
    Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
    Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
    The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
    Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
    Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
    The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
    The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
    Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
    Western N.T. (1926)
    NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
    Concordant Literal NT (1983)
    The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
    Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
    New American Bible (1970)
    Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
    Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
    The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
    Christian Bible (1991)
    The Scriptures (1993)
    World English Bible (in progress)
    Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
    Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
    Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
    Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
    A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
    New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
    New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) Roman Catholic
    Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
    Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
    Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
    MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
    Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
    The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
    Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
    Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
    The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017
     
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  20. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Are there any significant differences in the Critical Text?
     
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