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A forever hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by KisKatte, May 1, 2021.

  1. KisKatte

    KisKatte Jesus, send us your Holy Spirit.

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    Halo there,

    not very long time ago we had a discussion in our chalcedonian orthodox forum with a catholic and our orthodox priest if there is a for ever hell. Well the catholic could not name any text passeges or so but he had good reason to say hell can never be for ever. I "miss the times" so to say, do not know how to say it otherwise, when people had neither bible nor church and had themselves direct contact to God. They were better in that times. How can you think God will punish forever? This is impossible. It is so that God leads the church to say such things because we people need the anxiety to be saved! This is nothinig more than church politics. There will never be a for ever hell but a very long hell. This is absolutely enough to be afraid. ;) enough to be saved.

    God will never make someone suffer without reason and never for ever. I know this because I wanted to jump from 14th floor more than 10 years ago and God started talking to me. Therefore I also know about the frequency and possibility of reincaranation, ment that a soul can be born again(in another body on earth)! This does not change that Jesus came to earth. I wish all a good experience this year with Pascha/Easter. I would like to know your sincere opinions. Leave politics aside. Do you really think God will "kill" you for ever by never ever again delivering you from hell? You should always think the best of God, you know and use your reason also. Your reason existed before the bible. And I heard this passage is translated wrongly, it could mean for ever and it could mean one aeon/one million years or so.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
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  2. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Active Member

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    I don't believe in an "eternal" hell. I believe the death of the soul is the second death as Christ taught in Matthew 10:28. I do believe in the Lake of Fire but believe all that is done away with when we have the new heavens and earth. I will never believe a loving God would torment someone for an eternity. He simply wants to find out who will follow Satan or who will ultimately follow him.
     
  3. KisKatte

    KisKatte Jesus, send us your Holy Spirit.

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    What do you mean by "death of the soul"? The soul never dies in my opinion. Or I misunderstood you. I also believe someday everybody will be saved!
     
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  4. Shrewd Manager

    Shrewd Manager Through him, in all things, more than conquerors. Supporter

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    It's a foul slander on God's holy name to suggest he tortures people forever if they reject him. What a petty, nasty and cruel deity that would be. I'd go so far as to say that the doctrine of eternal damnation or annihilation is how satan gets Christians to worship him unknowingly!

    Our God is love, and it's the kind that goes through hell and death to retrieve every last lost sheep. Holy judgment that sets us right, not to get even. Mercy that triumphs over judgment, forgives 7 times 70 times, and amazing grace that bows every knee so that we cry out 'Abba Father'!

    Glad to hear that the evil one has not made merchandise of you sister.
     
  5. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    Given that, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (First Corinthians 15:26), I have a very simple question:

    How can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell after Death has been destroyed...?
     
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  6. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    From what I understand, this is not a debate forum, but you asked opinions. Mine is that after this temporal existence, time will be no more. 'Forever' then, does not mean 'time without end' but refers to the completeness of the thing, and the complete lack of the opposite fact (i.e. Heaven, with God).

    We know the judge of all the world will do what is right. Nobody will be punished beyond their due. But any sin is a horror, the rebellion against the very creator of the Universe. It must be dealt with.

    Christ's substitution was finished. It did not run a long time, but was a completed event --from what I can tell, time irrelevant. Being himself God, he returned from it, yet from God's POV he is forever wounded: The bruised heel Genesis refers to. CS Lewis' space trilogy, the second and last book, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength give a well-written allegory on the subject of that wound.
     
  7. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Active Member

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    All throughout the bible we are told the wages of sin is death period.

    Christ tells us that fear not him that can kill the body but fear him that can destroy both body and soul in hell. This would be at judgement day.

    Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

    Destroy in the Greek means to destroy "fully".

    He also tells us in Revelation,

    Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    The ones that take part in the first resurrection don't have to fear the second death, they've already made it. If everyone were to be saved, you are basically saying the "second death" has no power. But Christ himself says in both verses, there will be a second death.

    Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

    That takes place on Judgement Day. Again, if everyone were ultimately to be saved, you are taking away the power of the second death, which is, as Christ teaches, the death of the soul.

    I know many don't agree with that and believe in universal salvation but I myself don't feel it supported by scripture. Not really looking for a debate (been there, done that ) but you wanted to know what I meant by the death of the soul.
     
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  8. KisKatte

    KisKatte Jesus, send us your Holy Spirit.

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    @JulieB67 Do you believe people will be killed or in hell for ever?
     
  9. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    ADVISOR HAT

    As a reminder, this is the Oriental Orthodox forum. Non-members should not be teaching.

     
  10. KisKatte

    KisKatte Jesus, send us your Holy Spirit.

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    @FreeinChrist Yes sure! We are not teaching! All oriental orthodox are welcome to spread their opinions and teachings here. Nobody is teaching here ....
     
  11. Sorn

    Sorn Well-Known Member

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    "after this temporal existence, time will be no more.", Eternity means time does not end - you never run out of time.
    I tend to think that souls (and hence the 'real' you) may well be destroyed in the 2nd death.
    Forever in this context means not that they that go thru the 2nd death will never be returned to life. They are forever gone.
     
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  12. Sorn

    Sorn Well-Known Member

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    This should be understood as that dying will be no more but if you're dead and God doesn't resurrect you then you remain dead.
     
  13. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    In that case, Death has NOT been destroyed, but Paul writes that it will be.
     
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  14. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    MOD HAT ON

    [​IMG]

    Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

    Annihilationism
    Full Preterism
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    Universalism


    MOD HAT OFF
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
  15. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    It appears this thread has been moved to Controversial Christian Theology so I'm going to take a chance and join in.
    Let me start of with a word study I did. I reviewed every occurrence of "aionos" and "aion" in the NT and here are my results.
    “aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
    “aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
    ……….….………eternal 42 times in the N.T.
    ……….….………everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
    Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
    = = = = = = = = = =
    In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
    = = = = = = = = = =
    …..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
    However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
    …..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
    …..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

    [1] Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]
    In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
    [2] John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]
    In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [3] John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    [4]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
    [5] John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
    In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
    [6]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
    In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
    [8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.
    In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See note [fn] on “ou mé” below.
    [9]John 6:27
    (27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
    In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
    [10]John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."
    In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death. By definition “aion” means eternity.

    [Character limit. Continued next post]
     
  16. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    [Previous post continued]

    Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.
    [11]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
    [12]Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
    [13]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    [14]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
    [15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]
    In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [16]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [17]1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]
    In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [18]Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]
    In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
    [19]Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.
    In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
    [20]1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [21]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
    [22]Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
    [23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [24]1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”
    [25]1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
    [26]Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    = = = = = = =

    Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
    ●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
    ● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
    ● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
    Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
    By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

     
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  17. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Active Member

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    I believe that the soul is destroyed at the second death.
     
  18. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    …..Concerning only the historical faith, beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews three incontrovertible Jewish sources are quoted, below; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.
    According to these sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated hades and gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
    …..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not rebut, refute, alter or disprove anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
    [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
    = = = = = = = = = =
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    …..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
    "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
    Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught e.g.,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    …..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
    In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
    …..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    …..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
    ….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
    When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

    “Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
    …..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?
     
  19. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Sometimes I like skipping ahead and reading the end of the book.
    The lake of fire passages, in context.

    Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
    …..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
    The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
    …..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
    …..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
    If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
    Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
    But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

    Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
    My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. Feel free to call them anything you want. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
    ….More verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

    Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    . Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
    No more death” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says 8 groups of the unrighteous “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
    If there is “no more death” after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is still called the “second death.”.
     
  20. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Since you asked for opinions, I will give mine. There is no such thing as an immortal soul. God alone has immortality.
    1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    One is either a Christian and believe 9in the bible, or not. There is no such thing as reincarnation in the bible, either. There is no everlasting burning hell. The saved are given eternal life, that is the reward, the gift of God. The lost inherit death. There is a hell where all the lost will be punished for their sins and then they will die and be no more, along with Satan and all the fallen angels. You are free to believe in anything you want. I choose to believe what the bible, in the original language says. What Jesus and the disciples believed. If everybody is going to be saved, there was no reason for Jesus to come and die for our sins, we have to believe what He says and live this life for Him.

    Eze_18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
    Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    God did not tell Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would burn forever---He said they would die.

    Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
    Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
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