A forever hell

[Lazarus Short]

"We need the plebeians to be terrified of us" - Holy Roman Empire.

That terror keeps the pews and offering plates full...but fails miserably at making the plebeians fit for the Kingdom.

 

[Clare73]

It's a big deal because some words carry a LOT of theo-illogical and/or emotional baggage. What if I translated "sheol," "hades," "gehenna" and "tartarus" as the "Big Rock Candy Mountain"...?

Does Scripture present Gehenna as candy, as a mountain and a rock? Does that agree with the context?

"Hell" just puts the wrong ideas in people's heads.

Scripture is the source of the ideas in people's heads.

"Condemnation" and "Damnation" do as well, and I have seen both rendered from simple "judgment." Do you see how that works?

Those words are chosen based on the context of the whole counsel of God.

You're new to the Scriptures, right?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Does Scripture present Gehenna as candy, as a mountain and a rock? Does that agree with the context?

Scripture is the source of the ideas in people's heads.
Those words are chosen based on the context of the whole counsel of God.

Big Rock Candy Mountain - I used that term to make a point. Did you miss it?

The "whole counsel of God" would include good and unbiased translation. Too many versions fail at that. After surveying the whole KJV, I concluded that many of the word choices were made to support pre-existing theology. It puts the cart ahead of the horse.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Does Scripture present Gehenna as candy, as a mountain and a rock? Does that agree with the context?

Scripture is the source of the ideas in people's heads.
Those words are chosen based on the context of the whole counsel of God.

You're new to the Scriptures, right?

Well, I quoted you twice, and "You're new to the Scriptures, right?" came up each time, even though it does not show up in your post. But to answer your question, no, I am NOT new to the Scriptures.

 

[Der Alte]

I see no reason to insist that it's not saying life in the age to come, or in the world to come, rather than eternal life. For one thing eternity doesn't have a beginning, but we did.
Eternal adjective lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. John 3:15-16 YLT
We're being given a promise that we'll be alive in the age/world to come. I don't feel shortchanged by that. What happens after that age? I guess we'll have to wait to find out.

Your quote "Eternal adjective lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning."
Why did you bold the secondary meaning rather than the primary meaning " Eternal adjective lasting or existing forever?"
Here is the definition from Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Definition of eternal
(Entry 1 of 2)
1a: having infinite duration : EVERLASTING eternal damnation
b: of or relating to eternity
c: characterized by abiding fellowship with God
good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?— Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)
2a: continued without intermission : PERPETUAL an eternal flame
b: seemingly endless eternal delays
archaic : INFERNAL some eternal villain … devised this slander— William Shakespeare
4: valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS eternal verities​

 

[Der Alte]

That terror keeps the pews and offering plates full...but fails miserably at making the plebeians fit for the Kingdom.

I started going to Sunday School when FDR was president. I did not become a Christian until LBJ was president and it had nothing to do someone preaching hell. I had been in a few church between FDR and LBJ and can't recall ever hearing a sermon on hell.
In fact since I became a Christian I have only heard one sermon on hell and I preached it in '95. The title was "Lessons from Hell University." I wasn't the pastor my sermon had nothing to do with full pews and offering plates.I didn't even receive a stipend nor did I want one.
Maybe you guys should get a new boogey man line.

 

[Clare73]

Big Rock Candy Mountain - I used that term to make a point. Did you miss it?

I don't know. . .what was the point?
Or did I use your point to make the Biblical point?

The "whole counsel of God" would include good and unbiased translation. Too many versions fail at that. After surveying the whole KJV, I concluded that many of the word choices were made to support pre-existing theology. It puts the cart ahead of the horse.

And you would know the text came from the theology rather than vice versa, how?

Who uses KJV? Not only the text, but its Greek manuscript has errors in it.

 

[Clare73]

Well, I quoted you twice, and "You're new to the Scriptures, right?" came up each time, even though it does not show up in your post. But to answer your question, no, I am NOT new to the Scriptures.

In which two posts did it come up? It's in post #282.

 

[Saint Steven]

We're being given a promise that we'll be alive in the age/world to come. I don't feel shortchanged by that. What happens after that age? I guess we'll have to wait to find out.

Right. One age precedes the next. Change is good, right?

 

[cfposter]

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Just an example of where something in the Bible is of limited duration that is translated from AIONIOS.


Rom 16:25 NowG1161 to him that is of powerG1410 to stablishG4741 youG5209 accordingG2596 to myG3450 gospel,G2098 andG2532 theG3588 preachingG2782 of JesusG2424 Christ,G5547 accordingG2596 to the revelationG602 of the mystery,G3466 which was kept secretG4601 since the world began,G5550 G166

 

[CleanSoul]

The Harrowing of Hell happened between Jesus death on the cross and his resurrection. It is what he was doing for those three days.

You are bringing in aspects from the final judgement. That doesn't apply here.

I don't understand what part of my last post you think had anything to do with the final judgement. I was comparing those of more modern times who had never heard the gospel, with those in the far past who had never heard the gospel, because there was none, and had to be judged as such, based on their conscience and morals.

 

[Saint Steven]

"Hell" just puts the wrong ideas in people's heads. "Condemnation" and "Damnation" do as well, and I have seen both rendered from simple "judgment." Do you see how that works?

Yes. And we too quickly forget that mercy is an option for judgment. (God is full of mercy)

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't understand what part of my last post you think had anything to do with the final judgement. I was comparing those of more modern times who had never heard the gospel, with those in the far past who had never heard the gospel, because there was none, and had to be judged as such, based on their conscience and morals.

Sorry. Actually a reference to an earlier post.

CleanSoul said: ↑
Or, paragraph 1035:

Immediately after death, the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

 

[atpollard]

Halo there,

not very long time ago we had a discussion in our chalcedonian orthodox forum with a catholic and our orthodox priest if there is a for ever hell. Well the catholic could not name any text passeges or so but he had good reason to say hell can never be for ever. I "miss the times" so to say, do not know how to say it otherwise, when people had neither bible nor church and had themselves direct contact to God. They were better in that times. How can you think God will punish forever? This is impossible. It is so that God leads the church to say such things because we people need the anxiety to be saved! This is nothinig more than church politics. There will never be a for ever hell but a very long hell. This is absolutely enough to be afraid. enough to be saved.

God will never make someone suffer without reason and never for ever. I know this because I wanted to jump from 14th floor more than 10 years ago and God started talking to me. Therefore I also know about the frequency and possibility of reincaranation, ment that a soul can be born again(in another body on earth)! This does not change that Jesus came to earth. I wish all a good experience this year with Pascha/Easter. I would like to know your sincere opinions. Leave politics aside. Do you really think God will "kill" you for ever by never ever again delivering you from hell? You should always think the best of God, you know and use your reason also. Your reason existed before the bible. And I heard this passage is translated wrongly, it could mean for ever and it could mean one aeon/one million years or so.

Well as long as we are relying on our feelings rather than the WORD OF GOD, what could possibly go wrong.

Judges 17:6 [NKJV]
In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.​

 

[Saint Steven]

Well as long as we are relying on our feelings rather than the WORD OF GOD, what could possibly go wrong.

Judges 17:6 [NKJV]
In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.​

Yes, much better to be a soul-less, Bible-wielding robot. Take no captives.

 

[atpollard]

Yes, much better to be a soul-less, Bible-wielding robot. Take no captives.

Do you have a verse that supports that position, because it does not sound very Christian to me. I find it better to “seek truth” and “trust in God” ... but to each his own. If being a “soul-less, Bible-wielding robot” works for you, then who am I to judge the servant of another?

 

[Navair2]

Who uses KJV?

I do.

Not only the text, but its Greek manuscript has errors in it.

I can find no errors in the Textus Receptus.
But I can find plenty of them in the Critical Text.

Good evening to you, Clare.

 

[Saint Steven]

Do you have a verse that supports that position... ?

Wow. Did you really ask me that? (appears so) Kind of proves my point. Thanks.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Yes, much better to be a soul-less, Bible-wielding robot. Take no captives.

 

[Clare73]

I do.

I can find no errors in the Textus Receptus.
But I can find plenty of them in the Critical Text.

Not familiar with the Critical Text.

 

[Lazarus Short]

And you would know the text came from the theology rather than vice versa, how?

Well, there is this little Hebrew word, "sheol." It refers to the realm of the dead, the unseen, the unknown, the grave, the pit. Half of the time, the KJV rendered it as "grave" or "pit," and I found that it did so when the context tied the instance to the real world. The other half of the time, the KJV rendered "sheol" as "hell," and it did so usually when the context did not connect to the real world. Be cautious, as the translators were not entirely consistent, so you can find instances that contradict the above. I was investigating Hell, so there are probably a lot of terms which were print to fit as well.