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A forever hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by KisKatte, May 1, 2021.

  1. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    You don't understand the difference between punishment and sadism. Punishment is done to an end. It is corrective in nature and designed to bring about a change in the person being punished. It is to make the offended realize what he has done and turn from that way of living.

    Furthermore, punishment is always just. We know what justice is because God Himself gave us the standard in lex talionis. Lex talionis means that the punishment fits the offense. You do not hang a child for stealing a loaf of bread. God gave those lex talionis laws because mankind is totally inclined to vengeance, the kind of vengeance that Infernalists attribute to the Father. This is called making an idol, a false representation of God. Infernalists have placed the patina of retribution over the God who is love.

    In Lex Talionis, there is no sin that is worth unending suffering with no goal to be achieved. That is not justice, that is sadism.
     
  2. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    QUOTE="TedT

    IF we were created as eternal self and other aware spirits and

    Wrong. We are not created immortal. Scripture states that only God has immortality.

    IF we were all created with a free will and

    You confuse the ability to make a choice with the idea of having a will that is free. Our will is not free. To be free, the will of man would have to exist in a place where there were no external nor internal constraints upon it. How can you say our will is free when our corrupted natures desire sin and not God, when we are surrounded by evils, devils, and lies causing us to choose wrongly, and when we are spiritually blind?

    IF there is an unforgivable sin, a sin that puts the person outside of all grace and

    There is no unforgiveable sin in terms of eternally. The mention of an unforgiveable sin has to do with the Jews who turned down Christ by stating that His works were done by the devil. Thus, they forfeited their ability to enter into the New Covenant Age.

    IF some of HIS creation chose to sin the unforgivable sin and

    Tell me who would choose sin or the unforgiveable sin if we could see clearly? If we were not tempted by devils, lies, and false religions? If we were not corrupted by our sin natures? So tell me how just it would be of God to allow people to make such a choice - eternal damnation - without doing anything to stop us from destroying ourselves? What kind of God do you worship anyway?

    IF it is true that a little leaven / sin leavens / corrupts the whole lump / person / community, then

    Yes, we are a community of humanity.

    IF the only way to protect HIS Church and heavenly Family from these eternally evil people was to banish them from HIS heavenly reality,

    No, there is not only one way to protect His Church and family from evil. It is to heal the evil ones. The Bible speaks of this in using the analogy of fire. Fire purifies. The samples we are giving in the Bible show us that fire is used to cleanse impurities. The Lake of Fire is the love of God which will burn away all that is not like Him, rendering even the most foul and black to be clean and pure.

    THEN hell is an absolute necessity to keep the eternally evil ones from corrupting HIS heaven.

    So God is so weak and impotent that He created mankind, foreknowing the fall of man, yet unable to do anything to remedy the situation, and making His redemption not part of His omnipotent power, but rather dependent upon the corrupted and weak will of man?

    Question for you - what kind of God would create Ex Nihilo, with no need to do so, and foreknowing that He would be unable to keep billions of sentient beings from destroying themselves forever? Is that God who is love?
     
  3. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    Okay.

    And some will receive it now, in this life, and some, being deceived or having never heard of Christ, such as the pagans, will receive it after death.
     
  4. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Eternity is a long time to be correcting someone, don't you think?

    Matthew 25:46 (WEB)
    46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
     
  5. cfposter

    cfposter Member

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    The only thing that destroys death is LIFE. Eventually, all the wicked people will be purged of their sinful nature and come into God's Grace.

    Eternal Hell teaching defeats the purpose that Jesus came. It says that His purpose was destroy the works of the devil which we know is sin. If someone goes into eternal torment that means sinners take their sins with them. It is never eradicated. That is why the teaching is nothing more than a relocation plan for sinners. Thankfully, it just isn't so.

    What this means, is that EVIL people will eventually be convicted of their evil ways and loathe who they were.
     
  6. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God will judge righteously according the knowledge they received. To those who are give little, only a little is required. To those who are given much, much is required.

    God will judge all righteously in the end, taking into account our conscience, what we did with the knowledge we had.

    Romans 2:13-16 (WEB) 13 For it isn’t the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified 14 (for when Gentiles who don’t have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Good News, by Jesus Christ.
     
  7. 2BeholdHisGlory

    2BeholdHisGlory Still on vacation!

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    The question was for Del Alte, and that was not what I am asking. Temporal and temporary are the same thing (a limited period of time, seasonal, ect). This verse contrasts between two things, one temporal and the other eternal as if they are opposites is what I was getting at.

    2Cr 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

    My question to him was simply asking if these are being contrasted against the other then both could not mean temporal (or temporary).

    For example, if we ourselves build a camp fire, that is a temporal fire. Can we see a temporal fire? Yes, will it burn for ever? No, can one fire be an example of the other, yes, just as the invisible things of him even can be clearly understood by what is made, even his eternal power and Godhead (you can find examples of these things). But in this example one fire is temporary, its a fire we can see (and has a limited time). But if he is contrasting between the two (the temporal and the eternal) then they are not of the same temporary nature (as far as time). That would be if we are looking for a specific example to contrast temporary with eternal as it is being used in 2 Cr4:18 So if we use a camp fire, its an example of what is seen (here today gone tommorrow) as opposed to a fire that is eternal in nature (which is not).

    Temporary (or temporal things, which we can see) are being contrasted against eternal ones (things we cannot see) in that verse showing by them that both cannot be temporal in nature.

    Edit typo
     
  8. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    QUOTE="cfposter,

    The only thing that destroys death is LIFE. Eventually, all the wicked people will be purged of their sinful nature and come into God's Grace.

    Eternal Hell teaching defeats the purpose that Jesus came. It says that His purpose was destroy the works of the devil which we know is sin. If someone goes into eternal torment that means sinners take their sins with them. It is never eradicated. That is why the teaching is nothing more than a relocation plan for sinners. Thankfully, it just isn't so.

    This is what so many people don't think about. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil. Death is the work of the devil. If eternal hell is real, then that makes Christ actually supporting the work of the devil - eternal death and existence in a never-ending state of conscious sin and rebellion against God.

    Why would the same God, who suffered on the Cross to destroy death, mandate that it continue forever?
     
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  9. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Active Member

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    Revelation 5:13 "And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.


    While I don't believe in an eternal hell, I would have to ask you is it really the Holy Spirit driving this at that point?

    This happens when Christ returns and so they will know without a shadow of a doubt he is Lord. Still, he will tell many to depart from him claiming he never knew them. (although that's another subject altogether) If all are saved at that point and have had a true change of heart, why are they still thrown into the Lake of Fire? To bring them to repentance? No offense but it just seems like that takes away from Christ's sacrifice by through we have salvation through trust and faith in him.
     
  10. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not everyone will believe in Lord Jesus. They refuse to listen to and follow Him. Lord Jesus paid the price for all to be saved, and God surely desires all to be saved, but God's will is to save those who believe in the Son.
     
  11. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Active Member

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    I'm talking about when he returns every knee will bow. I'm not saying everyone will be saved but he will be acknowledged.
     
  12. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    The only thing that destroys life is God---He gave it and He can take it away. There is no immortality of the soul, the only one who is immortal is God. Period---not one singe living thing in this universe is here without God making it, and He can destroy life. He makes all that is non-living also. In order to be saved, a living being has to ask for forgiveness and actually repent. That is according to the bible. Uni is totally man made philosophy, has no scriptural bases. They have twisted a few scriptures to try an d make their theories seem scriptural. Who or what can tell God what to do? He says what He means and Means what He says. Not one single person can be saved unless they have believed, repented, baptized if possible, baptism isn't always possible (thief on cross). One single solitary sin is enough to die, that is what God has said. Jesus laid down His life -- we just have to accept it. No one in the lake of fire is able to do that. They no longer have the Holy Spirit from which to repent. That is the unpardonable sin---grieving away the Holy Ghost. It is the Holy Spirit that brings us to repentance.
    The wicked can only acknowledge at the end that God is in control, that His punishment of them is just.
    Acknowledgement is not repentance. The wicked at the end have no choice but to accept the punishment they deserve as just. They are in the lake of fire till there is nothing left of them. They pay according to their works. Forever is not according to their works.

    Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
    Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

    This is not "purged of their sinful nature and come into God's Grace."
     
  13. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Oh, I see.

    God gives people many chances while on earth to repent and believe. And those that die early, before having had an opportunity, God will judge with the knowledge they had, and according to their conscience: Romans 2:13-16

    Once this life is over, there are no more opportunities.

    Hebrews 9:27-28
    (WEB)
    27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation.

    Luke 21:34-36 (WEB)
    34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Let's check. (they are all related)

    Matthew 13:22
    The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life (aiōnos) and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

    Romans 12:2
    Do not conform to the pattern of this world (aiōni), but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

    1 Corinthians 1:20
    Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age (aiōnos)? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

    1 Corinthians 2:8
    None of the rulers of this age (aiōnos) understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    Ephesians 2:2
    in which you used to live when you followed the ways (aiōna) of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

    Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

    Luke 18:29-30
    “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age (aiōni), and in the age to come (aiōnion) eternal life.”

    Concordance Entries
    Strong's Greek 166
    71 Occurrences


    αἰώνια — 1 Occ.
    αἰωνίαν — 2 Occ.
    αἰωνίων — 2 Occ.
    αἰωνίοις — 1 Occ.
    αἰώνιον — 45 Occ.
    αἰώνιός — 4 Occ.
    αἰωνίου — 15 Occ.
    αἰωνίους — 1 Occ.

    Additional Entries
    αἰῶνα — 31 Occ.
    αἰῶνας — 32 Occ.
    αἰῶνι — 8 Occ.
    αἰώνων — 28 Occ.
    αἰῶνος — 25 Occ.
    αἰῶσιν — 1 Occ.
    αἰώνια — 1 Occ.
    αἰωνίαν — 2 Occ.
    αἰωνίων — 2 Occ.
    αἰωνίοις — 1 Occ.
    αἰώνιός — 4 Occ.
    αἰωνίου — 15 Occ.
    αἰωνίους — 1 Occ.
    ἀκαθαρσίᾳ — 5 Occ.
    ἀκαθαρσίαν — 2 Occ.
    ἀκαθαρσίας — 3 Occ.
    ἀκάθαρτα — 6 Occ.
    ἀκαθάρτῳ — 5 Occ.
    ἀκαθάρτων — 4 Occ.
    ἀκαθάρτοις — 2 Occ.

    Greek Concordance: αἰώνιον (aiōnion) -- 45 Occurrences
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    See the definition of "acknowledge" below. Thanks.

    Philippians 2:10-11
    that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

    Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
    S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
     
  16. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Why did you post this message, again? The examples you provide are for the noun "aion" (and its derivatives). They are not for the adjective "aionios." No one in his right mind would disagree that aion means "age" or "world." You don't have to prove this.

    Yes, but you haven't quoted any of these verses for aionios G166. You need to quote these if you want to prove that they do not mean "eternal."
     
  17. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Are you claiming that I am not in my right mind?
     
  18. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    No, not at all, but rather that you assume that I, the reader, am not in my right mind :).
     
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Judge for yourself. You wrote that none of my verses contained S166. I showed you that they all did.
     
  20. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    “aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
    “aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
    ……….….………eternal 42 times in the N.T.
    ……….….………everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
    Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
    = = = = = = = = = =
    In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
    = = = = = = = = = =
    …..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
    However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
    …..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
    …..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

    [1] Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]
    In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
    [2] John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]
    In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [3] John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    [4]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.

    [5] John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
    In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
    [6]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
    In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
    [8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.
    In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See note [fn] on “ou mé” below.
    [9]John 6:27
    (27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
    In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
    [10]John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."
    In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

    [Character Limit. Continued below]
     
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