A forever hell

[Saint Steven]

... Says the Lord.

Is that intended to silence all discussion? (from post #172)

 

[setst777]

You are twisting what the verse actually says to fit your doctrine. Saying it can't mean what it plainly says. The verse says "resulted", which you changed to "made possible".

There were two acts that had results for all people. This is further confirmed in verse 19.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,

The verse doesn't say that the one trespass in the condemnation of all people; rather, for all people.

Are all condemned? No.

The result is condemnation for all people but not all are actually condemned.

Romans 5:19 so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Justification is for all people. The Passage does not say:

"resulted in justifying all people."

Many will be justified. Many do not mean all are justified, rather that the justification is for all people.

 

[Saint Steven]

Amazing, how you reject all the Scriptures I provided...

Couldn't we say the same about you? (yes)

In reference to God's will, I like what my buddy @Lazarus Short has to say about it. Note bold.

From Lazarus Short

God's sovereign Will is clear: that all men come to salvation in Him. Will the Will of God not prevail? The Calvinists assert that God is able to save all, but chooses not to. The Arminians counter that He would like to save all, but cannot. There is a third position, that God is both WILLING and ABLE to save all. I wrestled with this idea, and it is not too difficult to find that He is willing...but is He able? Then, one day it came to me in a flash: God is omnipotent, so OF COURSE He is able to save all. No "mental gymnastics" are required, and no overturning, negation or alteration of His Will or His Word is required, just the realization that the doctrine of eternal damnation is wrong. I could not find it in the KJV, and the "evidence" quoted by "hell" advocates is small and contradicted by many more Scriptures that I can quote all day.

 

[Saint Steven]

Romans 5:19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,

The verse doesn't say that the one trespass in the condemnation of all people; rather, for all people.

Are all condemned? No.

The result is condemnation for all people but not all are actually condemned.

Romans 5:19 so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Justification is for all people. The Passage does not say:

"resulted in justifying all people."

Many will be justified. Many do not mean all are justified, rather that the justification is for all people.

That's a whole lot of hairsplitting.

And verse 19 says "the many" (=all) not just "many".

 

[setst777]

Couldn't we say the same about you? (yes)

In reference to God's will, I like what my buddy @Lazarus Short has to say about it. Note bold.

From Lazarus Short

God's sovereign Will is clear: that all men come to salvation in Him. Will the Will of God not prevail? The Calvinists assert that God is able to save all, but chooses not to. The Arminians counter that He would like to save all, but cannot. There is a third position, that God is both WILLING and ABLE to save all. I wrestled with this idea, and it is not too difficult to find that He is willing...but is He able? Then, one day it came to me in a flash: God is omnipotent, so OF COURSE He is able to save all. No "mental gymnastics" are required, and no overturning, negation or alteration of His Will or His Word is required, just the realization that the doctrine of eternal damnation is wrong. I could not find it in the KJV, and the "evidence" quoted by "hell" advocates is small and contradicted by many more Scriptures that I can quote all day.

My reply to Lazarus Short is as follows:

Ezekiel 18:30-32 (WEB)
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Read carefully God’s response to Mr. Short:

Ezekiel 18:19-30 (WEB)
19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Blessings

 

[setst777]

That's a whole lot of hairsplitting.

And verse 19 says "the many" (=all) not just "many".

The Passage does not say all are condemned. Nor does it say all are made righteous.

And to take any other view would disagree with all the Scriptures that show that not all will be saved because they refuse.

The Gospel message is an invitation or call to all to believe and be saved, even though many refuse.

Matthew 22:8-9 (WEB)
8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren’t worthy. 9 Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the wedding feast.’

Isaiah 45:21-22 (WEB)
21 There is no other God besides me, a just God and a Savior. There is no one besides me.
22 “Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

 

[Saint Steven]

Read carefully God’s response to Mr. Short:

Ezekiel 18:19-30 (WEB)

You can't be serious. (but probably are)

 

[setst777]

You can't be serious. (but probably are)

God is serious. God takes not pleasure in the death of the wicked, and desires all to be saved. But God says they must repent to be saved. That is God's Will.

There is nothing unjust in God for doing so.
God's desire that the wicked should repent and live, does not negate God's Sovereign will.

 

[Saint Steven]

The Passage does not say all are condemned. Nor does it say all are made righteous. ...

Sure it does, "all people" = all.
And "the many were made sinners" = all.
And "the many will be made righteous" = all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

God is serious. God takes not pleasure in the death of the wicked, and desires all to be saved. But God says they must repent to be saved. That is God's Will.

Do you imagine that God sits up in heaven wringing his hands because the situation is completely out of his control? (seems so) Maybe @Lazarus Short was right.

 

[setst777]

Sure it does, "all people" = all.
And "the many were made sinners" = all.
And "the many will be made righteous" = all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

God defines what is meant.

Matthew 22:8-9 (WEB)
8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren’t worthy. 9 Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the wedding feast.’

Ezekiel 18:30-32 (WEB)
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

 

[Saint Steven]

God defines what is meant.

Is that intended to end all discussion?

 

[setst777]

Do you imagine that God sits up in heaven wringing his hands because the situation is completely out of his control? (seems so) Maybe @Lazarus Short was right.

You tell me:

Do you think God is up in Heaven wringing his hands?

Matthew 22:8-9 (WEB)
8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren’t worthy. 9 Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the wedding feast.’

Ezekiel 18:31-32 (WEB)
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

 

[Saint Steven]

You tell me:

Do you think God is up in Heaven wringing his hands?

No. @Lazarus Short was right. God is WILLING and ABLE.

 

[setst777]

No. @Lazarus Short was right. God is WILLING and ABLE.

Yes, God is willing and able.

Matthew 22:8-9 (WEB)
8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren’t worthy. 9 Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the wedding feast.’

Ezekiel 18:30-32 (WEB)
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Hebrews 7:24-27 (WEB)
24 But he, because he lives forever, has his priesthood unchangeable. 25 Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing that he lives forever to make intercession for them.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, God is willing and able.

It appears that you misunderstood the quote.

 

[setst777]

It appears that you misunderstood the quote.

Hebrews 7:24-27 (WEB)
24 But he, because he lives forever, has his priesthood unchangeable. 25 Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing that he lives forever to make intercession for them.

Not everyone will draw near to Him. But those who do, God is able to save to the uttermost.

Matthew 22:8-9 (WEB)
8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren’t worthy. 9 Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the wedding feast.’

Ezekiel 18:30-32 (WEB)
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

 

[Andrewn]

I haven't seen other participants addressing your argument, perhaps bec they find them irrefutable. I will attempt to address your points, not hoping to change your mind, but only to show that there may be another plausible point of view.

Contrary to what UR-ites say, scripture does NOT say that all mankind will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.

I don't consider myself a universalist because:

1) I don't believe that all souls go to paradise immediately after death. Only virtuous Christians may have this hope.
2) I don't know whether _all_ souls ultimately experience heavenly bliss or that few may be lost forever.
3) I take the hope that a majority of souls will be saved as a possibility to allay my own anxiety regarding non-Christians and not as a fact to be preached in lieu of the Gospel.

Exomologeō occurs eleven times in the NT. in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back)”etc.

I looked at these passages and have to disagree with this assessment. Exomologeo seems to mean "to profess" or "to acknowledge" as it is often rendered in modern translation. It does not mean to "to confess" under coercion. Php 2:10-11 itself refers to Isa 45:23 where the equivalent Hebrew word, which is shabah, is translated "to swear" allegiance.

In Philippians 2:11exomologeō is an aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility or potentiality. The action may or may not happen. Every knee should bow not “will bow.”

The parallels verses Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Php 2:10-11, and Rev 5:13 leave no doubt that all (or at least an overwhelming majority) will worship the Lord. This includes those "under the earth" in Hades.

..Scripture says that every knee should bow but only believers will do so freely, willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies.

This is , certainly, a common view. I think it goes against the spirit of the passages mentioned above but cannot deny that that interpretation is possible. We'll see if another participant comments on this.

How will the enemies of Jesus feel?
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, *(fn) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
…..*(fn)"That day" =the day of judgment.]After judgment day and “I never knew you: depart from me,” there are no more chances for reconciliation.

This is talking about the provisional judgment immediately after death. If Jesus cannot forgive his enemies, why would He ask us to forgive our enemies?

The enemies of Jesus become His footstool, as the enemies of Joshua did, and nowhere is it written that those enemies will be reconciled.

Yes, definitely, but is their punishment with absolutely no end? Is everlasting conscious torment the only thing you'd expect for your family members who have lived a virtuous life but did not believe in God and Christ?

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't consider myself a universalist because:

1) I don't believe that all souls go to paradise immediately after death. Only virtuous Christians may have this hope.

No worries. Ultimate Redemption doesn't teach that either. Salvation is through Christ alone. Those who have not yet come to Christ for salvation do not "go to paradise immediately after death".

2) I don't know whether _all_ souls ultimately experience heavenly bliss or that few may be lost forever.

Not really a reason?

3) I take the hope that a majority of souls will be saved as a possibility to allay my own anxiety regarding non-Christians and not as a fact to be preached in lieu of the Gospel.

Don't you believe in the Elect? Or the narrow way and the broad way that leads to destruction? (and many go therein)

 

[setst777]

This is talking about the provisional judgment immediately after death. If Jesus cannot forgive his enemies, why would He ask us to forgive our enemies?

According to God's Word, when we read the context, we forgive someone who first repents, just as Lord Jesus forgives those who repent.

Luke 17:3-4 [Disciples’ Literal New Testament]
3 Take heed to yourselves— If your brother sins, rebuke him. And if he repents, forgive him.
4 And if he sins against you seven times in the day, and returns to you seven times saying ‘I repent’, forgive him”.

• God forgives those who repent.
• We are to do likewise.

God does not forgive all people their sins,
We are to follow God's example.

Lord Jesus beautiful Parable in Matthew 18:21-35 illustrates this truth so plainly, that a child could understand.

Matthew 18:21-35 (WEB)
...21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
...22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
...23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
...26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
...28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
...29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
...30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
...32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
...35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

Blessings